A Change to TWR Rules (PLEASE READ)

[CrackFox]

As some of you may be aware the rules regarding the editing of posts within games has been called to question. The current rules allow a player to change any aspect of their original post with the exception of votes. We now realise that this rule could allow a player to edit their posts in order to remove sensative information that could hurt the other team in doing so. Doing this is neither fair nor ethical. This lead us to rethink our policy and after much discussion and taking into account feedback from our users we have reached a decision. A few ideas that were considered but disregarded after talks include;

-Leaving the editing rule to the individual host's discretion. A host can't always be relied upon to remember to specify their view on editing. If the host doesn't specify and players are unhappy that it is happening we have no power to stop or punish the behavior as neither host rules nor official rules will technically be being broken (as was the case in Random Messages Mafia recently)

-Allowing editing only to add new content and never to change/remove. This is great in theory but almost impossible to police. Neither players nor hosts are eagle eyed enough to spot disappearing information from a post. Games move fast and very few people are that diligent. Mods have no way of knowing what was there before a post was edited.

We ultimately decided that all potential rules were ones that could easily be exploited under certain circumstances and so it has lead us to this;

Under the new rules users are not allowed to edit their posts for any reason! This includes for the smallest reasons such as fixing some bad grammar. In doing this we acknowledge that players will be at a loose end if they feel they need to change their post in some way. To counteract this multiple posting is now permitted in place of editing. If you feel you need to clarify something about your post or add more to it you are permitted to do so in another post immediately afterwards. Please be aware that abusing your right to multiple post by doing so frequently and without real reason could result in a pointless post warning/infraction. This is not an excuse to flood a thread, it is meant to relieve some of the inconvenience of the no editing rule. In the case of a few spelling mistakes, leave them be, we all do it and it almost never leaves your post incomprehensible.

To clarify a few things;

-There is no limit to the amount of posts you make as long as they aren't pointless.

-Hosts are allowed to edit their posts when hosting a game. The no editing rule is aimed at players only.

If you have any questions regarding the new rules you can post them below. Thank you.

 

[ReturnofMCH]

so... triple and quadruple posting is allowed as so long as it doesn't seem to be overflowing the thread?

 

[CrackFox]

so... triple and quadruple posting is allowed as so long as it doesn't seem to be overflowing the thread?

As long as it is justified. Do so within reason when you feel it's necessary, not just because you can. Always ask yourself if the post is pointless or not.

 

[Sword Master]

Great changes! I think this will ultimately help it to become a fairer game.

 

[CrackFox]

Great changes! I think this will ultimately help it to become a fairer game.

We hope so! It's a rule i've always wanted to put forward since that is how a lot of other Mafia forums run things. I didn't imagine the higher ups would grant us permission but since post count doesn't apply to us we were given the green light. Just please guys don't spam otherwise we'll get our toys taken away :b

 

[Doctor Floptopus]

I'm glad this rule has been put into effect

 

[Zexy]

Nice, this was really needed after recent events

 

[Beck]

THANK YOU!

 

[Snowy]

This includes for the smallest reasons such as fixing some bad grammar.

This is not good.

My suggestion is to turn on the post edit history feature in vBulletin's settings. An admin will need to do it. It's under Settings > Options > Message Posting and Editing Options. As far as I know, that will allow admins and mods to view every single edit made to posts.

I feel that is a better option.

 

[lovandra]

This will give some more difficulty on Bulba War Game, especially for players that asigned as mafia...

And more difficulty for non-native like me, either role I will be roled as .

*rolled myself as a puffy sugary Wolf bun*

 

[CrackFox]

This includes for the smallest reasons such as fixing some bad grammar.

This is not good.

My suggestion is to turn on the post edit history feature in vBulletin's settings. An admin will need to do it. It's under Settings > Options > Message Posting and Editing Options. As far as I know, that will allow admins and mods to view every single edit made to posts.

I feel that is a better option.

As far as i'm aware, this isn't possible and even if it were it would be more trouble than it is worth. Spelling a few things wrong or writing a sentence out badly wont harm a game. If you feel your post might be taken the wrong way because of it or not understood, you can clarify what you meant in another post.

@lovandra; Can you elaborate on what you mean by difficulty?

There is no perfection solution here. Most mafia forums operate under these rules.

 

[Mijzelffan]

This is the single worst rule I have ever seen imposed on the war room and that's including the time ryuu wanted people to pm their entire game set-up to a moderator before they were allowed to host it. At the very least I think hosts should be able to decide for themselves whether editing posts is allowed in their game or not.

edit: I edited this post to change the wording from I'm to that's which is infractable under new rules

 

[lovandra]

@lovandra; Can you elaborate on what you mean by difficulty?

There is no perfection solution here. Most mafia forums operate under these rules.

I've been on mafia games with such a rule. Need to be cauntion to everything you post on the thread is 'difficult'.

Nah I dont say it's a bad thing.

About me as non native. Since I have no level awareness of english level as the rest.I used a really-really weird choice of vocab and once or twice was attacked for that reason. And to make sure my post 'cleared', I once ever used to spend 2 hours just to make a single post *kinda long post* as I play as mafia.

It's not easy.

But, that was also on same games where private communication is banned for the mafia games, so everyone need to read everything on thread there... so maybe that the main reason the game is way more difficult.

 

[Snowy]

As far as i'm aware, this isn't possible and even if it were it would be more trouble than it is worth. Spelling a few things wrong or writing a sentence out badly wont harm a game. If you feel your post might be taken the wrong way because of it or not understood, you can clarify what you meant in another post.

It is possible because I got that straight from vBulletin's manual

Correcting spelling and grammar is essential for some players, such as those that are OCD about such things. I know I am not the best when it comes to spelling and grammar, but if I know something is spelled wrong, or is incorrect grammatically speaking, It will drive me crazy.

I agree with you on the need to stop players from removing or modifying information. That's unfair. It's not very good sportsmanship.

I just disagree on the idea of a blanket ban on editing. Spelling, Grammar, and readability are, in my opinion, very good reasons to allow editing.

I think this from the Chaos mafia works the best:

IMPORTANT UPDATE REGARDING AN ADDITION TO THE RULES

In this game, there is to be absolubtely no editing of information within posts.
You may edit your posts for spelling and grammar. You may also add information in a post using Edit:. However, the content of your post is not to be changed in any way. If I believe you have edited a post in this way you will receive a warning/sub depending on severity. If a second content edit is made I will modkill you.
Editing posts once you have been eliminated is also forbidden, and I will not hesitate to report you for poor sportsmanship if you edit your posts after your death.

 

[Doctor Floptopus]

I can understand that, eevee, but unless players are willing to report info changes to me it isn't enforceable.
I think this is the best solution for a problem that is difficult to solve. As CF said, most mafia forums, including solely mafia forums such as MafiaScum and Mafia Universe, operate under these rules and it's always worked fine for them.
If a host wishes to allow editing they should be able to, but it should be made clear.
@CrackFox; is there a way to implement a time based auto post merge like they have on the bell tree forums to avoid too many multiple posts? I know they operate on a similar version of vbulletin to us.

 

[CrackFox]

This is the single worst rule I have ever seen imposed on the war room and that's including the time ryuu wanted people to pm their entire game set-up to a moderator before they were allowed to host it. At the very least I think hosts should be able to decide for themselves whether editing posts is allowed in their game or not.

edit: I edited this post to change the wording from I'm to that's which is infractable under new rules

Now you're just being dramatic. The reasons why allowing a host to decide from themselves falls down has already been stated. In my opinion players shouldn't have to compromise the fairness of a game just because the host personally doesn't have a problem with it. The editing thing has recently proved somewhat gamebreaking. Now that we are attracting new players from sites like MU, the editing rule is a luxury for them and they will be more inclined to exploit it. I agree about not seeing it cause a problem in the past but that was with the old crowd of players. Also editing posts is completely fine outside of a game thread. I think you know that....

Once again I know it's annoying if you can't go back and change spelling etc. However, allowing editing posts purely for those reasons can't be policed. A player could edit whatever they wanted and when asked why they edited use the excuse it was just to change some spelling. In most cases no one could prove they were lying. Screenshotting is silly and more trouble than it's worth.

I don't know what limitations the forum has or if the higher ups would consider this issure worth rethinking the fundamental way the forum operates. I don't think being able to see what was there before an edit was made is any kind of solution. All that would lead to is constant reports for editing checks. There aren't enough WR staff for that to be practical.

The auto post merge sounds like it could be helpful. I'll PM Archaic and ask about it.

 

[Almonds]

I'm pretty sure the XY Mafia game I hosted contributes somewhat to this installment - there have been two cases of rule-breaking in posts that were edited out before I could see them. The first, I let off with a warning as there were no solid proof. The second, I had to modkill from witness testimony.

It depends, but as a host, I personally like the idea of no-edits.

 

[Zexy]

Oh, I thought it was put in effect because of another incident in another game, but now that Kyriaki mentioned it, this rule also solves situations where people break the rules and edit the rule-breaking part out before the host can see it. Which is another nice reason about why this rule should be in effect.

 

[Snowy]

Once again I know it's annoying if you can't go back and change spelling etc. However, allowing editing posts purely for those reasons can't be policed. A player could edit whatever they wanted and when asked why they edited use the excuse it was just to change some spelling. In most cases no one could prove they were lying. Screenshotting is silly and more trouble than it's worth.

I don't know. *shrug* I guess I'm just of the old school belief that you should trust your players to be good sports.

I don't know what limitations the forum has or if the higher ups would consider this issure worth rethinking the fundamental way the forum operates. I don't think being able to see what was there before an edit was made is any kind of solution. All that would lead to is constant reports for editing checks. There aren't enough WR staff for that to be practical.

The auto post merge sounds like it could be helpful. I'll PM Archaic and ask about it.

Realistically, there is not a lot that is impossible. vBulletin contains a LOT of features, and features it doesn't have can be modded in.

It's been a while since I admined a vBulletin forum, but if I recall correctly, it is possible to disable post editing for the entire Wargames forum, while leaving the other forums alone. And I believe there is post merging mods out there that can automatically merge all consecutive posts. There is also the post edit history feature.

I still think a blanket ban on editing isn't the right way to go about this, but vBulletin does have a few features that can help enforce this rule.

EDIT: I just checked the demo forum... You can make t so regular users can't edit their own posts in a single forum.

 

[HumanDawn]

I don't know. *shrug* I guess I'm just of the old school belief that you should trust your players to be good sports.

Players aren't perfect people, we all make mistakes and things we shouldn't do from time to time.

EDIT: I just checked the demo forum... You can make t so regular users can't edit their own posts in a single forum.

I'd like for editing to stay in so I can update the opening, although there might be features that let the thread made by the user allow them to edit their own posts only.