AdvanceShipping Hints List Debate Thread

[Archaic]

As most of you already know by now, Scott85 has given us what may be the first definitive list of what many AdvanceShippers consider to be evidence of their ship, with his edit of the AdvanceShipping Bulbapedia Article. Now that we have this, it's time to organise a proper debate.

I've posted this outside the AdvanceShipping general discussion, simply so people who enjoy the ship can have a place to go if they don't want to engage in debate, as I'm sure many people don't. I'd like to ask that all AdvanceShipping debate for the forseeable future be kept to this thread, or a spin-off of it.

It's probably best if we don't do everything all at once, simply because not everyone has seen every episode (and so we don't force you guys to have to reply to a general rebuttal), so I'd like to open up the floor now to anyone who'd like to start us off. Please remember everyone, only things directly relevant to defending or attacking items on this list of AdvanceShipping evidence should be discussed. This is not the time nor place to discuss the validity of evidence of PokéShipping or ContestShipping. That should be done in their own seperate debate threads. (ContestShipping especially should be debated in another thread, since it's never had a definitive debate before. PokéShipping....not as important, since there's only 1 or 2 points still in contention, all past Johto)

 

[FabuVinny]

I have lots to say on this but I agree with one point at a time.

The main thing that I really don't think fits there is VineShipping. While other things can be argued, I fail to see how that can be used as evidence for AdvanceShipping. It's a nice mirror that would be a good section in the article if it doesn't get its own article but I see no reason to count it as evidence.

 

[Jo-Jo]

If no-one minds, before arguing over the strength of the evidence presented, I'd like to nitpick at a couple of canon details in that article:

After witnessing May lose her first Pokémon Contest, Ash takes the blame for her loss. He says, "It’s my fault. I wish I’d spent more time with May, teaching her." Later, May is crying backstage as Ash tries unsuccessfully to cheer her up.

The line I bolded makes it sound as though there was a one-on-one Ash/May comforting scene in Win, Lose or Drew, but actually Ash, Brock and Max went to comfort May as a group. Ash only says two words to May in that scene. Should the article be reworded to make it clearer what was going on there?

Also:

When confronted by Max whether she wants Ash to win over her Dad, Norman of the Petalburg Gym, May gives flustered responses. While Max is quick to make up his mind and cheer for his father, May on the other hand sides with Ash. Max yells, "What, how can you want Ash to win over our Dad?" to which May blushes nervously and says, "Well I want Dad to win....but I don't want Ash to lose!"

Possibly it's established elsewhere in the episode that May did indeed want Ash to beat her dad, but her line, "I want Dad to win... but I don't want Ash to lose!" only seems to be saying that she can't decide between them. If this is a factual inaccuracy, it should be changed.

Then there's this:

May holds onto Ash's hat while he is lost with Snorunt in a blizzard. May holds onto his hat during the entire search, frantically hoping to find him again, which is seen as a romantic gesture. Once they meet up again, she says, "I believe this is yours!" and kindly hands Ash back his hat.

Bolded mine again. Where is holding someone's hat established as a romantic gesture?

May does her expedition routine and thinks about the concept of being lost with Ash in the woods forever. This idea causes her to have little red blushes on her cheeks.

I don't remember this happening. Either needs major clarification or should be stricken from the list.

After her loss in the Grand Festival Ash goes and gets her some ice cream on his own to cheer her up.

This makes it sound as though Ash went to find May on his own. In fact, Ash, Brock, Max and Caroline approached May as a group.

And this, from The Right Place At The Right Mime:

May of course agrees, while Delia is watching them converse, and blushes due to how close the two are.

This part is wrong. Delia's blushing had nothing to do with Ash and May's relationship. She wasn't even thinking about May.

Ash puts on a flabbergasted expression as he feels May's chest pressed up against his back.

Again, this is wrong. Ash's expression was due to nearly being pulled into the lake. Am I right in thinking that he was already making that face before May wrapped her arms around him?

May falls off a rope bridge and clutches for her life. Once again she cries out for Ash several times, despite the fact that Brock is standing with Ash as well. Ash calls out May's name as he pulls her to safety, but not once does May give any gratitude toward Brock for saving her, only Ash.

She cries out for Ash ONCE, not "several times". Then when he arrives, she says, "Satoshi!" in relief.

I'm only going over this to make sure everything on the list really happened before we start debating it. Did I miss anything or get anything wrong?

 

[Archaic]

One point I would like everyone to consider is the definitions of hints and evidence that we are using on Bulbapedia. They're both basically the same thing, but Evidence is points where we have a general concensus on their validity, and Hints are points that are still debatable. The entire list should currently be considered as the latter, and we can start splitting them up into sections of Evidence and Hints (further broken down by which side they're for) later. Rebutted hints can be sectioned off onto the talk page for now. It's debatable if we should keep them there. On one hand, it'd be good to show people what used to be believed as hinting towards the ship. On the other hand, no other shipping article, including PokéShipping, really does that yet.

In any case, for the time being, please do not edit the AdvanceShipping article for anything but clarity. I've promised the AdvanceShippers that I will personally revert any edits to the hints list that were made for any purpose besides that. When we have a general concensus on the validity of a point, or a general agreement to change the entry to give clarification of the scenario involved, then we will edit it.

 

[Cybersai]

Before I begin, can I please ask you guys not "swamp" me with too many things at once? It's already looking like I'll be the only person here to defend those points, and I can't respond to too many people at once before things get too hectic. I'll respond to Jo-Jo first.

The line I bolded makes it sound as though there was a one-on-one Ash/May comforting scene in Win, Lose or Drew, but actually Ash, Brock and Max went to comfort May as a group. Ash only says two words to May in that scene. Should the article be reworded to make it clearer what was going on there?

Fair enough, the others are with her too. I only had Ash mentioned because this is following up with the line where he blamed himself for her loss, right before that scene.

Possibly it's established elsewhere in the episode that May did indeed want Ash to beat her dad, but her line, "I want Dad to win... but I don't want Ash to lose!" only seems to be saying that she can't decide between them. If this is a factual inaccuracy, it should be changed.

Her line sounds like she doesn't want to give Max a clear answer, by her flustered reaction and her blushing when Max confronts her, it shows that she most likely has sided with Ash, but doesn't want to tell her brother because she knows how loyal he is to her father.

Bolded mine again. Where is holding someone's hat established as a romantic gesture?

I'm not too sure on this one, but i believe when a girl holds on to a male's hat when he is missing, it's supposed to be a romantic implication.

I don't remember this happening. Either needs major clarification or should be stricken from the list.

No, it happened.

May does her expedition routine while alone with Ash:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e247/Minamoship/188.jpg

Her line goes along the lines of, "Will May find Max and Brock or will she be lost in the woods with Ash forever?!"

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e247/Minamoship/190.jpg

By itself it doesn't look like much, but the writers used the same kind of blushing for Anabel when Ash was staring at her:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e247/Minamoship/169.jpg

We know Anabel had a canon crush on Ash, and May's blushing is done in the same tone.

Again, this is wrong. Ash's expression was due to nearly being pulled into the lake. Am I right in thinking that he was already making that face before May wrapped her arms around him?

I'm not exactly sure when Ash made that expression, but it does seem to connect with May holding him around. Can anyone confirm?

 

[Swifty]

In any case, for the time being, please do not edit the AdvanceShipping article for anything but clarity. I've promised the AdvanceShippers that I will personally revert any edits to the hints list that were made for any purpose besides that. When we have a general concensus on the validity of a point, or a general agreement to change the entry to give clarification of the scenario involved, then we will edit it.

Wouldn't it be easier to just lock that page for now instead of having to keep watch over it like a hawk?

 

[Archaic]

No. It's not like I need to put all that much effort into watching it in any case. A quick check once a day, or moving instantly when someone reports something.

 

[Pie]

No, it happened.

May does her expedition routine while alone with Ash:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e247/Minamoship/188.jpg

Her line goes along the lines of, "Will May find Max and Brock or will she be lost in the woods with Ash forever?!"

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e247/Minamoship/190.jpg

By itself it doesn't look like much, but the writers used the same kind of blushing for Anabel when Ash was staring at her:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e247/Minamoship/169.jpg

We know Anabel had a canon crush on Ash, and May's blushing is done in the same tone.

Uh... same tone? I'd argue that.

A blush can be taken to mean many things, not just attraction. We've seen it in a LOT of unpleasant, awkward, and generally bad situations, probably moreso than romantic ones unless you count the fifty-five thousand scenes where Brock had a faint blush while flirting with random girls. There's a lot more to interpreting a blush than the fact that it's there - namely, the context and the rest of the facial expression.

Now, what does the rest of Anabel's expression say? Happy. That being with Ash gives her warm fuzzy feelings or something like that. What does the rest of May's expression say? Fear. That she's scared and doesn't want to be lost forever.

I guess it qualifies as a hint, althought that requires stretching - evidence, I think not.

 

[Geodude]

Point taken, Pie, but here's a question: If she was alone with Max instead of Ash, would she have blushed at all? Somehow I don't think so. So it wasn't all fear.

 

[Archaic]

I'd have to argue that it's not even a blush at all. Find any episode where we have the characters being scared (1st Kanto season ghost eps maybe), and you see exactly this kind of facial expression there, with no implications of it being a blush whatsoever. While it certainly looks similar to a blush, if you look at the two pics Scott presented, you can see that the blush is a lot more subtle, while the scared expression is much more obvious. That's the giveaway difference there.

 

[Luna Tiger]

While it certainly looks similar to a blush, if you look at the two pics Scott presented, you can see that the blush is a lot more subtle, while the scared expression is much more obvious. That's the giveaway difference there.

Not really. If you mirrored the size of the blush!lines from Anabel to May in those pictures, you wouldn't be able to see them clearly on May (or at all). Regardless of the emotion, they have to be bigger just to be seen properly.

 

[Archaic]

You point being? If they wanted to make it a blush, and a blush couldn't be seen in that kind of shot, they'd simply go for the kind of shot where a blush *can* be seen.

Again, I submit my request to anyone who has an episode where the characters were scared to help me out with a few screenshots of demonstration. I believe we've seen this kind of thing on several occasions, not a few of them with Ash himself doing it, so it shouldn't be too hard to find one.

 

[FabuVinny]

May isn't exactly happy at the thought of being there. (Which is understandable; She would much rather compete in the contest than be stuck on that island. The non-presence of Max is also more of an issue than the presence of Ash.)

I'm looking for screenshots. So far I've only got one of Daisy with her arms in a similar position. There's no blush, though.

 

[FabuVinny]

So now that the second VineShipping episode has aired, how is it evidence of AdvanceShipping?

 

[Cybersai]

So now that the second VineShipping episode has aired, how is it evidence of AdvanceShipping?

The writers can use Vineshipping to push Advanceshipping in the future, because the ships parallel each other.

Ash's Bulbasaur and May's Bulba share the same mentor/student dynamic that Ash/May share, and are used to imply the two ships.

Characters such as Prof. Oak and Brock have said many times in the past that Pokemon represent the feelings of their trainers, and if two Pokemon fall in love, there's a good chance the trainers may fall in love too someday. Of course, this is not true for every Pokemon romance obviously, but with the way the writers went out of their way to have Vineshipping parallel Ash/May, it's gotta be used for something.

I don't believe the writers went out of their way to make a potential romance between Ash and May's Bulbasaur for no reason. They followed up with the Vineshipping idea from "Hokey Pokeballs," (which was over 50 eps ago) and May's Bulbasaur is staying with Ash's for ALL of Kanto. I'm really hoping the romance blossoms off screen until whenever we see the two Bulbasaur again. For it not to have some implication on the trainers themselves would be pointless, as they have directly paralleled one another.

So while Vineshipping is leaning toward being canon but not quite there yet, I would hope the writers follow through with it in the future. And having Ash/May react to their two Bulbasaur in love would be quite frankly, a great shippy moment between the two. Especially if they start to blush if Oak or Brock makes a comment on how the two Bulbasaur represent their trainers, their emotions, etc, stuff like that.

 

[Jo-Jo]

Speaking of 'The Right Place And The Right Mime', there are a couple of places in that episode where the characters do that 'blush that isn't really a blush' thing - when James grabs Wobbuffet to stop it saying its name, and when JJ&M try to sneak away towards the end and Misty and Tracey stop them. They all have the red lines drawn on their faces, but it's clearly meant to represent anxiety/fear, not embarrassment, and certainly not romance. *is mobbed by James/Wobbuffet shippers *

And I think the Advanceshipping position is that the Bulbasaurs' relationship parallels their trainers. To which the usual counter argument is that neither Ash/Liza, Ash/Florinda or Misty/Daisy are canon. Pokemon frequently get crushes or fall in love without it having anything to do with their trainers' feelings.

(edit - ah, beaten to it. Well, the counter still stands.)

 

[Cybersai]

True, which is why I said:

Of course, this is not true for every Pokemon romance obviously, but with the way the writers went out of their way to have Vineshipping parallel Ash/May, it's gotta be used for something.

So uh...I'll wait to see what happens between the two Bulba next time we see them.

 

[FabuVinny]

I was with you until the speculation of future events. As Jo-Jo pointed out on the episode thread, no one has made the link between these two pairs. VineShipping is valid of a mention alongside AdvanceShipping but we can take the evidence when it comes and being "a great team" in Hokey Pokeballs or staying at the lab in The Right Place at the Right Mime does not prove love between Ash and May.

 

[{UN}thebobmaster]

I Can't Believe This Article Is Still A Stub!!!!!!!!!

 

[Mythicall]

Just about the Vineshipping thing. i neither think it is evidence. but it can be used by Shippers to confront Ash and May with eachother in stories. just like the boy and the girl got confronted with eachother through the love of their nidorans in that episode.