Ignoring the recent progression for ContestShipping, is there any realistic possibility of AdvanceShipping becoming canon in the future? I have no problems with it as a fanon ship, but I was wondering if AdvanceShippers had any evidence.
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AdvanceShipping - Is there anything in it?
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Ignoring the progression for Contestshipping is kinda overlooking a rather important issue in what you're asking. 
It's safe to assume the writers haven't been hinting at Advanceshipping so far if they're developing Drew to be May's love interest.
But I'm not the person to be answering this question, anyway.
It's safe to assume the writers haven't been hinting at Advanceshipping so far if they're developing Drew to be May's love interest.But I'm not the person to be answering this question, anyway.
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Evidence for Advanceshipping? None. And it shows with the lack of replies and the Contestshippy hints in last week's episode in Japan.
Roses Ablaze
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I think it does have some evidence. Does that mean it will ever become canon? I doubt it.
"The Bicker the Better", "Grass Hysteria", "Get the Show on the Road", "Love at First Flight", "Once in a Mawile", "Date Expectations", segment in the Deoxys movie where May throws herself on Ash, segment in the Rukario movie where May clings to Ash's arm, May blushing over Ash when wanting him to beat her father at the Petalburg Gym, Ash being emotionally involved in May's contests, so much as taking the blame for her first loss, going to cheer her up after her loss in Rubello Town, and always being there when she needs him in the Harley contest at Izabe Island for support, first episode of the BF saga where May comes all the way from Hoenn just to travel with Ash again, the parallelism with Vineshipping.
There is some other stuff, but it's way too minor to actually count for anything. I'm not going to bother debating about this though, since I've done enough debating over at SPP.
There is some other stuff, but it's way too minor to actually count for anything. I'm not going to bother debating about this though, since I've done enough debating over at SPP.
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AdvanceShipping.
How does "Once in a Mawile" provide evidence for AdvanceShipping? There are a couple of nice moments between them, but they aren't AdvanceShippy.
How does "Once in a Mawile" provide evidence for AdvanceShipping? There are a couple of nice moments between them, but they aren't AdvanceShippy.
*boggles at the idea of May/Drew being compared to Misty/Rudy*
Just out of interest, if it's generally agreed upon by all that May/Drew is where the tension's at right now in the show, then how does it follow that the writers have been consciously dropping clues for Advanceshipping all this time? If your argument's that Contestshipping is temporary because Drew will eventually leave, and that Advanceshipping will happen afterwards, then that's one thing, but does anyone seriously think that the writers are hinting at two contrary pairings at the same time?
As for those hints... I have to wonder why Grass Hysteria is allowed to be Advanceshippy while Who What When Where Wynaut is dismissed as potentially Contestshippy. Or why The Bicker The Better hints at Ash/May, even though Ash and May barely react to being told they're in love, while the Grand Festival and Yuzuhira(sp?) eps prove nothing about May's feelings for Drew. Or why May not being jealous of Wakana is a huge anti-hint for Contestshipping, when Ash has never once been jealous of Sid, Harley or Drew.
Just out of interest, if it's generally agreed upon by all that May/Drew is where the tension's at right now in the show, then how does it follow that the writers have been consciously dropping clues for Advanceshipping all this time? If your argument's that Contestshipping is temporary because Drew will eventually leave, and that Advanceshipping will happen afterwards, then that's one thing, but does anyone seriously think that the writers are hinting at two contrary pairings at the same time?
As for those hints... I have to wonder why Grass Hysteria is allowed to be Advanceshippy while Who What When Where Wynaut is dismissed as potentially Contestshippy. Or why The Bicker The Better hints at Ash/May, even though Ash and May barely react to being told they're in love, while the Grand Festival and Yuzuhira(sp?) eps prove nothing about May's feelings for Drew. Or why May not being jealous of Wakana is a huge anti-hint for Contestshipping, when Ash has never once been jealous of Sid, Harley or Drew.
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Scott85 said:
I've never seen May blushing about Ash. And I can tell you I saw the Norman Gym Battle episodes. As for the Bicker the Better, Ash and May reacted quite indiferent about being told they were in love with each other. They just denied it without a single hint of blushing. Just compare it when TR teases Ash and Misty in "Pokéball Peril": they deny being more than friends, but both blush and look away from each other.
Ash being involved in May's contest just means he's a good friend supporting her, same as when he kindly cheered her after the Rubello contest (Anyone would do that for a friend).
And has it ever occurred to you that May travels to Kanto to meet up again with Max because he was there with Prof. Birch?
To finish, I fail to see what were the hints in Get the show on the road, Grass Hysteria and Love at first flight. I can't say anything about Date Expectations and Once in a Mawile since they haven't aired where I live.
All in all and in my opinion, there is no canon basis for Advanceshipping.
Note about Ash's supposed involvement in May's contests: on one occasion, he didn't even bother to watch her appeal because he wanted to go and train Swellow instead. This despite the fact that May has never once missed one of his gym battles. Ruuuuude. To his credit, I think he came back in to see her battle in the finals, though.
He also took the time to help Officer Jenny hunt down the Tonpei impersonator in the Grand Festival, which might have led to him missing May's appeal with Skitty if he'd taken much longer.
And in Harley And Taking The Game Seriously, he followed Pikachu out of the contest hall while the appeals were going on to hunt for Team Rocket. This was before he knew JJ&M had been stealing Pokemon. All that had happened was that Wobbuffet fell through the roof while Harley and Ariados were appealing, but Ash charged right off after Pikachu all the same.
I'm not saying that Ash is a bad friend or that he doesn't care about May. But he's not obsessed with her, either. He still places a greater priority on his own training and on fighting Team Rocket. In contrast, Brock and Max have stayed and watched every one of May's contests. I know Ash is the main character and he has more reason to need to go off and do things, but all the same, based on the evidence, I fail to see how he shows any more emotional involvement in May's contests than the other two.
Since we're on the subject, though, there have been a couple of occasions when Drew watches May in contests, and the animators usually take especial care to draw our attention to it. In the latest contest, for instance - the one with Wakana - Drew gets much more camera focus than Ash, Brock or Max, even though all four boys were sitting in the audience together. And there's always Disguise Da Limit, when he goes to watch May in secret, even though he'd been forced to drop out of the contest himself.
He also took the time to help Officer Jenny hunt down the Tonpei impersonator in the Grand Festival, which might have led to him missing May's appeal with Skitty if he'd taken much longer.
And in Harley And Taking The Game Seriously, he followed Pikachu out of the contest hall while the appeals were going on to hunt for Team Rocket. This was before he knew JJ&M had been stealing Pokemon. All that had happened was that Wobbuffet fell through the roof while Harley and Ariados were appealing, but Ash charged right off after Pikachu all the same.
I'm not saying that Ash is a bad friend or that he doesn't care about May. But he's not obsessed with her, either. He still places a greater priority on his own training and on fighting Team Rocket. In contrast, Brock and Max have stayed and watched every one of May's contests. I know Ash is the main character and he has more reason to need to go off and do things, but all the same, based on the evidence, I fail to see how he shows any more emotional involvement in May's contests than the other two.
Since we're on the subject, though, there have been a couple of occasions when Drew watches May in contests, and the animators usually take especial care to draw our attention to it. In the latest contest, for instance - the one with Wakana - Drew gets much more camera focus than Ash, Brock or Max, even though all four boys were sitting in the audience together. And there's always Disguise Da Limit, when he goes to watch May in secret, even though he'd been forced to drop out of the contest himself.
Kasumi-san said:
This is in the episodes leading up to the Norman Battle. Max kept getting May to blush everytime she said she wanted Ash to win over her Dad, meanwhile Max was on his fathers side.
Max says something like, "What? You want Ash to win over our Dad?!" and May giggles with a blush.
One of these is in "Go Go Ludicolo," and there was another ep leading up to the 5th Gym just like this.
There was no blushing, but they denied it quite anxiously. They nervously crossed their arms in unison, made sarcastic comments, yell "We're not a couple!" "And we're not happy either" in unison, and even after Oscar/Andi left, they kept arguing about how they couldn't stand each other to get their minds off the comment. The only thing it didn't have was a blush, but this was because they were already tearing each others heads off before Oscar/Andi even appeared.
Jo-Jo said:
He did, he watched the entire May Vs. Kelly fight.
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There are several innaccuracies in that description of The Bicker The Better, I'm afraid.
1 - Ash and May really don't get anxious or nervous at the tag battle couple's words (how is crossing your arms a nervous gesture??), especially when compared to the way they behave over Misty and Drew. They don't raise their voices, they don't blush, and their denials aren't worded in a hyperbolic manner, a la Ash and Misty's. "Crazy is right!" "Never in a million years!" is an overreaction; "That's a laugh"... not so much. The most you can interpret from their responses is that they were maybe a bit defensive. But then again, that can just as easily be seen as them being dismissive. And it's still far, far, far less defensive than the aforementioned Ash/Misty and May/Drew scenes.
2 - They don't yell anything in unison. Really. 'Unison' would mean that they speak at the same time. The only lines that they say together are "Us? In love?" and later, "hmmph". The "we're not a couple!" "and we're not happy, either!" lines were NOT in unison, because one is said after the other. And for the record, the only reason those lines were shouted is because Oscar and Andi had set off after the battle at a run and were already some distance away, so Ash and May had to shout for O&A to hear them.
3 - The arguing that they did for the rest of the episode had absolutely nothing to do with Oscar and Andi's 'love' accusations. Really. Ash and May had already been fighting all day before O&A showed up. Losing the battle didn't improve their moods any; quite the opposite. When they fought about Corphish and Skitty's poor performances and blamed each other for their loss, it was simply a continuation of the fight they'd got into during the battle itself (remember Ash losing his temper because May was taking so long to call out an attack?), which was in turn a continuation of the same damn fight they'd been having all day. Claiming that their argument about the battle was in any way a cover-up for their secret feelings that Oscar and Andi had revealed to all the world is too far-fetched to even be called a stretch.
As for Drew watching the Verdanturf battle, there are three reasons I'd class that as suspicious:
1 - one of the clues that's been used throughout the series that Drew likes May is that he's always paying attention to her and staring at her. His behaviour in Disguise Da Limit is a very noticable form of that.
2 - you'd think Drew would have wanted to avoid the contest after getting so thoroughly trounched by Timmy. He's an egotistical sort - wouldn't that be a bit of a blow to his pride, watching the guy who kicked his butt compete in the very contest that Drew himself was forced to drop out of? And wouldn't seeing his inexperienced rival go on to beat the guy who beat him be even more humiliating? Looking at the way Drew took off in Disaster of Disguise, I would have expected him to stay away from the contest altogether if I hadn't already been spoiled. He didn't react too well when Robert beat him, after all, and Robert never hospitalised Roselia.
3 - he didn't tell May or anyone else he was at the contest. If he was only attending because he had nothing better to do, then there was no reason for him not to go and see May and congratulate her on her victory afterwards. And there would have been no need for him to sit by himself, either; at Yuzuhira he sat with Ash, Brock and Max, and he could have done the same at Verdanturf. It's not as though he's any closer to them now than he was back then. But he sat alone, and as far as we know, May still has no idea he was ever there. I suspect that he just plain didn't want anyone to know.
Looking at the two blushing scenes in the Yuzuhira ep, it seems to me that Drew doesn't like putting his feelings on the line. He's ok with playing it cool and throwing May roses because as far as he's concerned, all that flirting only makes him look smooth. But when the others all act amazed that he didn't send May the rose and the letter, he blushes. It seems to bother him that they'd see him as capable of doing something so soppy. Similarly, when Roselia teases him, he gets flustered. He's fine with everyone knowing he finds May attractive, but IMO he's embarrassed for them to know that he cares about her on any deeper level.
So him watching May at Verdanturf in secret seems to me to be more behaviour along those lines. If people knew he was attending contests to watch May, they might figure out that he really likes her, and that would never do.
[/speculation]
1 - Ash and May really don't get anxious or nervous at the tag battle couple's words (how is crossing your arms a nervous gesture??), especially when compared to the way they behave over Misty and Drew. They don't raise their voices, they don't blush, and their denials aren't worded in a hyperbolic manner, a la Ash and Misty's. "Crazy is right!" "Never in a million years!" is an overreaction; "That's a laugh"... not so much. The most you can interpret from their responses is that they were maybe a bit defensive. But then again, that can just as easily be seen as them being dismissive. And it's still far, far, far less defensive than the aforementioned Ash/Misty and May/Drew scenes.
2 - They don't yell anything in unison. Really. 'Unison' would mean that they speak at the same time. The only lines that they say together are "Us? In love?" and later, "hmmph". The "we're not a couple!" "and we're not happy, either!" lines were NOT in unison, because one is said after the other. And for the record, the only reason those lines were shouted is because Oscar and Andi had set off after the battle at a run and were already some distance away, so Ash and May had to shout for O&A to hear them.
3 - The arguing that they did for the rest of the episode had absolutely nothing to do with Oscar and Andi's 'love' accusations. Really. Ash and May had already been fighting all day before O&A showed up. Losing the battle didn't improve their moods any; quite the opposite. When they fought about Corphish and Skitty's poor performances and blamed each other for their loss, it was simply a continuation of the fight they'd got into during the battle itself (remember Ash losing his temper because May was taking so long to call out an attack?), which was in turn a continuation of the same damn fight they'd been having all day. Claiming that their argument about the battle was in any way a cover-up for their secret feelings that Oscar and Andi had revealed to all the world is too far-fetched to even be called a stretch.
As for Drew watching the Verdanturf battle, there are three reasons I'd class that as suspicious:
1 - one of the clues that's been used throughout the series that Drew likes May is that he's always paying attention to her and staring at her. His behaviour in Disguise Da Limit is a very noticable form of that.
2 - you'd think Drew would have wanted to avoid the contest after getting so thoroughly trounched by Timmy. He's an egotistical sort - wouldn't that be a bit of a blow to his pride, watching the guy who kicked his butt compete in the very contest that Drew himself was forced to drop out of? And wouldn't seeing his inexperienced rival go on to beat the guy who beat him be even more humiliating? Looking at the way Drew took off in Disaster of Disguise, I would have expected him to stay away from the contest altogether if I hadn't already been spoiled. He didn't react too well when Robert beat him, after all, and Robert never hospitalised Roselia.
3 - he didn't tell May or anyone else he was at the contest. If he was only attending because he had nothing better to do, then there was no reason for him not to go and see May and congratulate her on her victory afterwards. And there would have been no need for him to sit by himself, either; at Yuzuhira he sat with Ash, Brock and Max, and he could have done the same at Verdanturf. It's not as though he's any closer to them now than he was back then. But he sat alone, and as far as we know, May still has no idea he was ever there. I suspect that he just plain didn't want anyone to know.
Looking at the two blushing scenes in the Yuzuhira ep, it seems to me that Drew doesn't like putting his feelings on the line. He's ok with playing it cool and throwing May roses because as far as he's concerned, all that flirting only makes him look smooth. But when the others all act amazed that he didn't send May the rose and the letter, he blushes. It seems to bother him that they'd see him as capable of doing something so soppy. Similarly, when Roselia teases him, he gets flustered. He's fine with everyone knowing he finds May attractive, but IMO he's embarrassed for them to know that he cares about her on any deeper level.
So him watching May at Verdanturf in secret seems to me to be more behaviour along those lines. If people knew he was attending contests to watch May, they might figure out that he really likes her, and that would never do.
[/speculation]
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I also watched the previous episodes to the Norman Gym Battle and never saw May blushing. Honestly.
And as for "The Bicker The Better", I second what Jo-Jo said.
And as for "The Bicker The Better", I second what Jo-Jo said.
^ She blushes in "Go Go Ludicolo", it's near the beginning of the episode when Max asks her about Ash and her Dad.
Their voices were indeed raised, those were not their normal speaking voices. And of course, they continue arguing/bickering/bantering until they bump into Team Rocket at the end.
Their voices were indeed raised, those were not their normal speaking voices. And of course, they continue arguing/bickering/bantering until they bump into Team Rocket at the end.
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cold_katanagirl
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That sounds oddly similair to Gary at the end of Johto.Jo-Jo said:As for Drew watching the Verdanturf battle, there are three reasons I'd class that as suspicious:
1 - one of the clues that's been used throughout the series that Drew likes May is that he's always paying attention to her and staring at her. His behaviour in Disguise Da Limit is a very noticable form of that.
2 - you'd think Drew would have wanted to avoid the contest after getting so thoroughly trounched by Timmy. He's an egotistical sort - wouldn't that be a bit of a blow to his pride, watching the guy who kicked his butt compete in the very contest that Drew himself was forced to drop out of? And wouldn't seeing his inexperienced rival go on to beat the guy who beat him be even more humiliating? Looking at the way Drew took off in Disaster of Disguise, I would have expected him to stay away from the contest altogether if I hadn't already been spoiled. He didn't react too well when Robert beat him, after all, and Robert never hospitalised Roselia.
3 - he didn't tell May or anyone else he was at the contest. If he was only attending because he had nothing better to do, then there was no reason for him not to go and see May and congratulate her on her victory afterwards. And there would have been no need for him to sit by himself, either; at Yuzuhira he sat with Ash, Brock and Max, and he could have done the same at Verdanturf. It's not as though he's any closer to them now than he was back then. But he sat alone, and as far as we know, May still has no idea he was ever there. I suspect that he just plain didn't want anyone to know.
Looking at the two blushing scenes in the Yuzuhira ep, it seems to me that Drew doesn't like putting his feelings on the line. He's ok with playing it cool and throwing May roses because as far as he's concerned, all that flirting only makes him look smooth. But when the others all act amazed that he didn't send May the rose and the letter, he blushes. It seems to bother him that they'd see him as capable of doing something so soppy. Similarly, when Roselia teases him, he gets flustered. He's fine with everyone knowing he finds May attractive, but IMO he's embarrassed for them to know that he cares about her on any deeper level.
So him watching May at Verdanturf in secret seems to me to be more behaviour along those lines. If people knew he was attending contests to watch May, they might figure out that he really likes her, and that would never do.
[/speculation]
... Except for the rose part. =0
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Scott85 said:
I don't recall seeing her blushing. But seriously, if she did I'm sure it was because she was embarrassed to not be as supportive of her dad as Max was. And don't tell me she supported Ash because OMG SHE LOVES HIM. Any friend would support a good friend like that.
Scott85 said:
Well, maybe they said the same things at the same time, but as for their body language and the tones of their voices: they were angry at each other for stupid inmature reasons so that's an obvious reaction to what O&A were saying, not to mention it was added for comic relief. I'm still saying no blush at all is the perfect anti-hint for Advance Shipping here. If you compare it with Ash and Misty's reaction to someone saying they were a couple, Ash and May's reaction is not shippy at all.
Kasumi-san said:
She may have been slightly embarrassed that she wanted Ash to win over her dad, but each time Max provoked her about it she blushed harder. During "Love Petalburg Style," she continued to have those same feelings of placing Ash above her Dad, and the narrator makes a comment about May being caught inbetween.
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*sigh*Scott85 said:
OK, you do realise what "speaking in unison" means, right? It doesn't mean having the same body-language - it means saying the same thing at the exact same time. There's an example of this in Wherefore Art Thou, Pokemon. Tracey says that Ash and Misty like each other, and they both round on him and yell "You must be crazy!" simultaneously. The "we're not a couple!" "and we're not happy, either!" part in The Bicker The Better is NOT in unison because Ash and May AREN'T SPEAKING AT THE SAME TIME. You're either going to have to rephrase your argument or start ignoring dictionary definitions of common English words.
You are right to say that their body language was the same, but I've never denied that. In any case, you're still left with May reacting far more strongly when characters ask her how she feels about Drew.
As for Ash and May raising their voices... they don't. They were already yelling at each other before Oscar and Andi show up, and they don't start speaking any louder when they deny being a couple.
Well, I won't pretend Palletshipping doesn't have subtext.cold_katangirl said:
The potential shippy undertone of Verdanturf is more due to a combination of factors... plus, it's not by any means one of the stronger Contestshipping hints.And there's also no stopping you from arguing that I'm wrong, it would appear. Expecting me to not mention Contestshipping in a thread created to discuss the merits of Advanceshipping would be a bit silly, would it not, since the existence of Contestshipping is the greatest strike against Advanceshipping at this point in time?Scott85 said:Gary did indeed used to watch Ash's matches without telling him. I don't know why so much emphasis is put on Drew. But this is Jo-Jo we're talking about, once we talk about Contestshipping there's no stopping her.
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