Are we really abusing the term "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" for the Anime characters?

[matt0044]

I was here on Bulbagarden where a user, Meron, said that Iris was NOT a Mary Sue on her blog. Here's what it said:

This is NOT a "stop hating over a character I like" post. You can dislike her as much as you want. However, whatever you think of her, DON'T abuse terms. Iris is not a Mary Sue... How many characters do you see fawning over her beauty and skills? Iris is not any more a Mary Sue than Hikari (Kengo liked her) or Haruka (Shuu liked her), or even Kasumi (bunch of dudes liked her) were. People are not constantly telling her how much they admire her, either.

Also, I see people calling Luke a Mary Sue too. Axew's me?

First of all, Luke is a male character. Male characters are NOT referred as Mary Sues. If you have to refer to him as the embodiment of perfectness, at least use the correct term which is Gary Stu. If you don't want to call him Gary for obvious reasons, call him Marty or Larry. I don't see any reason why you'd think Luke is anything near a Gary Stu, though.

Ironically, in my opinion the most Gary Stueish character is Dento. I absolutely love him, by the way.

TL;DR Learn yeh terms right.

Another user commented, saying this:

Really I don't think there's a "right" definition for Mary Sue anymore. It's been so used and abused by everyone and their siblings to mean "Characters whom I think get too much of the story/got together with a character from MY ship/etc" that it's entirely pointless to even use it.

Well, unless you're deliberately trying to be insulting and demeaning. Which I suspect a lot of people who use the term are.

And another said this:

Agreed. I've never used or liked the 'Mary Sue' label, it's pretty stupid especially when it's directed at the females. People who accuse Iris of being that way are basically just saying she possesses some common, female traits.
The most girly girl was Dawn. She was the only one who really cared about her appearance and made the effort to dress up for contests, and the whole, Pokemon fashion thing.
Say what you like about Iris but she's not that way in the slightest as far as I can tell. She actually lets her Kibago live inside her hair..she's never shown any signs of being timid or vain.

Needless to say, I have to agree with Meron and the other two. I don't mean to insult anybody but a lot of us really have been abusing the terms "Mary Sue" and "Gary Sue" when it comes to the characters of the Anime.

A "Mary Sue/Gary Sue" is suppose to a fictional character that's perfect in every way and a representation of the author's dreams in that she/he wants to be perfect. For example, the character has no flaws (perfect body, perfect attitude, etc) and, as a result, isn't compelling, engaging or interesting to the readers/viewers in any way. I might be missing something but I think I got the gist of it.

So, I ask you, all: WHY ARE WE APPLYING THIS TERM TO ASH AND CO.?

Aside from what was said about, an example I've commonly seen what when Dawn lost the Sinnoh Grand Festival. I was upset but others didn't want Dawn to win as they said the victory would make her a "Mary Sue." Um, how? Dawn might not be a very interesting character to some but since when was she perfect or intended to be a representation of the writer(s)? How would she winning a tournament (on her first go, no less) and taking a giant step towards her goal make her a Mary Sue? This applies to May and Iris as well.

Seriously, while Ash, Misty, May, Dawn, Iris, Brock and Cilan might not be the greatest characters in Pokemon, they barely qualify as Mary Sues/Gary Sues, if you want to get technical. They all have flaws (though Cilan's debatable) and quirks that makes them the least bit interesting.

I could go on but we'd be here all year so just post your replies. I want your honest thoughts so don't make it short.

 

[투 애니원]

If that's what Mary Sue means how in the name of almighty Arceus can Iris be called one? I thought it meant something else.

 

[matt0044]

If that's what Mary Sue means how in the name of almighty Arceus can Iris be called one? I thought it meant something else.

THAT'S WHAT I WAS GETTING AT! People use the term Mary Sue even when they don't really know what it means.

And just what did you think Mary Sue/Gary Stu mean?

 

[Yoshi-san]

Before I start:

Mary Sue: An implausibly flawless/competent idealized character.
Black Hole Sue — Everything is about me!
Purity Sue — Love me!
God Mode Sue — Power overwhelming!
Mary Tzu —I knew you would do that. In fact, I knew you would do that before I even met you, cuz I'm JUST THAT GOOD!
Jerk Sue — I'm a complete and utter bitch and I have constant PMS...love me!
Possession Sue — My favourite character is an even better version of me!
Copy Cat Sue — I'm just like my favorite character, but even kewler!
Relationship Sue — You're my boyfriend now!
Sympathetic Sue — Feel sorry for me!
Anti Sue — I'm genuinely useless, but everybody still loves me!
Villain Sue — I have you now, my beautiful slaves! Ahahahahahahaha!
Fixer Sue — No, that's not how it's supposed to go!
Parody Sue — Why don't they fall for my buxom charms?
Thirty Sue Pileup — We are Legion.

From TVTropes

Anyway, IMO the only two character that CAN count as sues are Ritchie(Copy cat) and Tobias(God Mode).

 

[Shinneth]

People abuse the term everywhere for almost every character for every fandom ever. Probably since before the internet; I forgot when Mary Sue was first coined as a term.

I don't see why it should be made out as a big deal here. This is nothing new at all.

And it's, like, incredibly easy to ignore people who abuse the term.

 

[matt0044]

And it's, like, incredibly easy to ignore people who abuse the term.

Yes, but I find it best to address this before it gets out of hand.

 

[GreatLiver]

It's really just a term people use to refer to characters they aren't too fond of.

 

[Shinneth]

Like I said, this is not a new, unique situation that threatens the stability of the forums. This happens everywhere and has been around for years. No fandom's crumbled yet due to some Mary Sue situation "getting out of hand", and thus I think this is an incredibly minor problem that doesn't warrant intervention from the higher-ups.

 

[GhostLucario]

Ok, inspired by Yoshi-san, using information from the almighty Tv Tropes, I will try to analyze whether Iris is a Mary Sue... or not

Mary Sue is a derogatory term primarily used in(Fan fic) to
describe a particular type of character. This much everyone can agree on. What
that character type is, exactly, differs wildly from circle to circle, and often from person to person.

So I think this is the main reason for the topic. Basically since this is a fan term, initially applied for Fan Fiction, the meaning of "Mary Sue" is different for everyone. So what exactly is a Mary Sue? Well, let's see

She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing.

Iris isn't beautiful, she isn't exceptionally talented in a variety of areas, and has a lot and I mean a LOT of flaws. Isn't she a bit of a downer? So afraid of failure in battles that she stopped trying? Didn't she have a lack of understanding for her Excadrill's feelings? Unable to recognize what a little bitch her Emonga is? Helps another trainer's Dragon type but is still unable to teach her Axew a third attack? That's a lot of flaws right there.
I don't think there's anything exotic about her either. She looks like a Zoroark but that doesn't make her beautiful.
Sure other than Brock and his family, we don't see characters with darker skin very often and her hair is quite unusual. But no way she's "an exotic beauty"

But let'scontinue analyzing if Iris is a Mary Sue or not.

the character's perceived importance in the story

Well I think we can all agree Iris isn't that important. Dawn was treated almost as an equal to Ash. Iris has received very little screentime and development in comparison to Dawn and even May.
Even the OP credits say that this is Ash's story. NOT Ash and Iris' story. She is not that important to the story even if she has a rival and a decent amount of screentime. She's a secondary protagonist.

their physical design

Like I said, she and her wild, crazy hairstyle that resembles a Zoroark doesn't make her overly attractive or eye-candy either.

an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature

Again, no. Yes, Excadrill OHKO'ed 99 pokémons before evolving. So what? It couldn't even win against Langley's Beartic. It was curbstomped by Drayden's Haxorus.
She is terrible in training Awex and don't get me started on Emonga.

She has an unusual and dramatic Back Story.

Yeah, she is a wild girl with no parents, raised by wild pokémon. Dramatic! Oh wait. Misty, Tracey, Dento... they don't have parents either.

The canon protagonists are all overwhelmed with admiration for her beauty,
wit, courage and other virtues

I don't even have anything to say about this. Has Dento ever said she has fantastic taste? No. Has anyone ever acknowledged any of her skills? No. Next

The canon characters are quickly reduced to awestruck cheerleaders, watching
from the sidelines as Mary Sue outstrips them in their areas of expertise and
solves problems that have stymied them for the entire series

Um.. hello?! Isn't everyone still bitching complaining that she just stood there doing nothing for almost 40 episodes.

So according to this, Iris isn't a Mary Sue. Luke isn't a Gary Stu. If there is any Sue-ish character that would be... yes, Dento. That's all for now.

 

[matt0044]

^What about the other characters like Ash or Dawn?

 

[Shinneth]

The problem with this Sue analysis is that it's only coming from one point of view. Because the writers are absolutely terrible about handling Iris' character, Pokemon, and backstory, viewers have interpreted her in many different ways. Lately she's been getting quite a bunch of perks and yet being shown to do nothing to earn them, and her rewards are pretty much handed to her on a silver platter. She's flawed, but her flaws are rarely addressed and downplayed when they are. She's evaded most (if not all, depending on your point of view) forms of character development that every other main character goes through on the show (sidekicks included).

I don't think anyone's even outright called Iris a Mary Sue; only that she's starting to pick up on traits that make one a Mary Sue. It's like the light side/dark side thing in Star Wars terminology. Think of it like Knights of the Old Republic where various decisions make your alignment swing one way or the other. That's the way I see Iris and how her character is shown and the series progresses. It's a unique case because no main character or sidekick has her kind of scenario (imo).

But like I said in the blog post, there is a difference between crying "SUE!" and discussing possible Sue traits in a civil manner. The latter shouldn't be treated as a problem.

But that's why I say this is how mountains are being made from molehills. People discuss individual Sue traits and assume it's the same thing as branding the character a Sue, but that just isn't true.

Geez.

 

[Iteru]

As Shinneth has said, characters are labelled Mary Sues all the time in several fandoms. Thus, the question has been answered and there isn't anything more to discuss.