Ash's Pokémon League position

[Pattyman]

Why is it that people want Ash to win the Pokémon League? The tournaments are hard to win at and other Trainers from various regions have trained really hard to get where they were, not just Ash. Not only that, it isn't really explained as to how Ash could win them as it's mostly done by the writers.

I saw that the Kalos League had a lot more complaints than the previous leagues despite the fact that Ash was in second place and it was a higher ranking than the previous league rankings. The Unova League had some complaints because of Cameron defeating Ash even though he had less experience than Ash. I don't know about the other ones prior to Unova Ash competed in but no one mentioned anything about Ash winning the Hoenn League aside from the fact that he should have been in the Top 4 instead of the Top 8.

 

[Daren]

Why is it that people want Ash to win the Pokémon League? The tournaments are hard to win at and other Trainers from various regions have trained really hard to get where they were, not just Ash. Not only that, it isn't really explained as to how Ash could win them as it's mostly done by the writers.

Because he's been the protagonist for nearly two decades and he's made no steps towards his goal. People are getting sick of it. Many are more than just "getting sick of it" and have given up completely.

I saw that the Kalos League had a lot more complaints than the previous leagues despite the fact that Ash was in second place and it was a higher ranking than the previous league rankings.

Because ultimately, placement rank doesn't matter--they're perfectly willing to make him drop a level so only an actual victory means anything in terms of progress. A lot of people felt the show was hyping up a win this time, so naturally when it doesn't happen a firestorm resulted.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

Why do I want to see Ash win a regional conference? Because he's the protagonist of the show and I've been following his journeys for a very long time, though despite how long the series has been running and the progress Ash shows, he has never won a single regional conference. I watch him train and develop each region, only for him to be shot back down to square one by the writers. Its actually frustrating to watch all the build up to each league, only for Ash to lose, especially when the odds truly seem in his favor, like in the Kalos League.

I have seen many cartoons and anime where the everything the protagonist goes through eventually leads to them achieving their goals. This anime is the only one I know of that never lets its protagonist accomplish their goals or even come one step closer to that. Sure Ash beats the Gym Leaders each region and that's a step in the right direction, but his overall goal is to win the league, which is a step towards his ultimate goal of becoming a Pokemon Master. That never happens though. It kind of gives off a bad message honestly. While the Pokemon anime teaches that its okay to lose and you shouldn't give up on your dreams, it seems like they're also saying no matter how hard you try, there will always be someone better than you and you will never achieve your goal.

 

[Pattyman]

I have seen many cartoons and anime where the everything the protagonist goes through eventually leads to them achieving their goals. This anime is the only one I know of that never lets its protagonist accomplish their goals or even come one step closer to that.

Yu-gi-oh! became one of those cartoons where the main protagonist actually accomplished his goals, especially against rivals.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

Yu-gi-oh! became one of those cartoons where the main protagonist actually accomplished his goals, especially against rivals.

Yeah this is true. I don't wanna get too off topic, since this is Pokemon, but they actually do present Yugi/Pharaoh Atem with challenges he ultimately loses, but in the end, he overcomes those challenges he failed at. He beats Pegasus in Duelist Kingdom, defeats Marik in Battle City, defeats Dartz, and he does other things. If the writers treated Ash in the same way, I'd be happy, but I would like it to makes sense for him to win and to see him work for it.

 

[Gligarman]

I think people were upset this time around because they felt the ad campaign heavily implied that he was going to win. Perhaps to celebrate the franchise's 20th anniversary.

 

[Arceus the Dragon]

Ash loses the leagues because it is a way to keep him on his journey. Not to mention that he releases his fully evolved pokemon which doesn't help him at all. Kalos was perfect for him to win but at least Greninja is finally shown to not be invincible with the perfected form. Alola has no league so Ash has to do something else.

20 years doesn't affect Ash's chances of winning at all and should not be used as an excuse for him to win. Ash should win because the writers want him to win. It is not up to us.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Yeah this is true. I don't wanna get too off topic, since this is Pokemon, but they actually do present Yugi/Pharaoh Atem with challenges he ultimately loses, but in the end, he overcomes those challenges he failed at. He beats Pegasus in Duelist Kingdom, defeats Marik in Battle City, defeats Dartz, and he does other things. If the writers treated Ash in the same way, I'd be happy, but I would like it to makes sense for him to win and to see him work for it.

To be fair, Yugi had to overcome those particular kind of challenges. The stakes of most duels are usually bigger than what Ash has to go through with a regional League. In a duel, lives can be in danger, especially if you are facing off against major villains like Marik and Dartz. That's one reason why I wouldn't compare how they handled Yugi to how they've handled Ash. Ash losing doesn't mean that his friends are going to die or he's going to lose his soul. He can afford to lose without losing anything really important in the grand scheme of things. Yugi, as well as the other protagonists in the Yu-Gi-Oh! franchise, generally can't afford to lose in most cases.

As for the question at hand, I think people just want to see Ash win a regional League after nearly twenty years. Granted, most people seem to dismiss the Orange Island and Battle Frontier as if they don't count. They do count, but it's harder to use them as a defense when even the Battle Frontier happened nearly ten years ago at this point. Winning a game related region League wouldn't make him a Pokemon Master, but it would be a step towards that goal and people do want to see some progress there after all this time. I'd say that the rankings do count for something and getting to the finals for the first time should definitely be acknowledged as a significant progression for Ash, but people generally think that winning counts more.

It also didn't help that the Kalos League was hyped up a bit by both the writers and fans, Ash actually did get to the finals for the first time and people thought that he could win for once to tie in with the 20th anniversary. Plus, losing to Alain, a trainer who they've gone out of their way to make him look ridiculously strong with his broken Mega Charizard X, really doesn't help matters either.

Personally, I don't really mind that Ash hasn't won a game related region League, especially when that's really not what I watch the show for. I certainly wouldn't be against Ash winning a League and I think he does need some major victory under his belt, but I just watch the show for the fun of the journey, seeing Ash interact with new characters, watch how his traveling companions change throughout the journey themselves and see new Pokemon. I can understand why people are more upset about the issue than I am, but it's not something that I really factor into that much when watch the show.

 

[Keshav]

Well he is the protagonist and this time, everything was in his favor, Ash had 2 battles with Alain prior to the league and he didn't win even once. Ash always defeats a rival by the end of the series and that happens in the league. Many of the magazines said how Ash would achieve his victory. Some even said "the battle ends and Ash emerges as....". This was the reason for the kalos league backlash. I didn't mind any of his previous loses but I'm still salty about this one.
Btw, it's clear now that Ash is never going to win a league since that animator confirmed that this is the pokemon anise where you would think the protagonist will win but he won't.

 

[Pattyman]

Well he is the protagonist and this time, everything was in his favor, Ash had 2 battles with Alain prior to the league and he didn't win even once. Ash always defeats a rival by the end of the series and that happens in the league. Many of the magazines said how Ash would achieve his victory. Some even said "the battle ends and Ash emerges as....". This was the reason for the kalos league backlash. I didn't mind any of his previous loses but I'm still salty about this one.
Btw, it's clear now that Ash is never going to win a league since that animator confirmed that this is the pokemon anise where you would think the protagonist will win but he won't.

I don't think that Ash not defeating Alain at least one time was something new. This happened before with Dawn and Zoey as Dawn lost to Zoey in the Grand Festival finals even though Dawn didn't defeat her at least one time in battles/competitions despite Zoey being the main rival to Dawn. In that case, it was more likely the same reason that Ash wasn't able to defeat Alain in the League finals.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

Btw, it's clear now that Ash is never going to win a league since that animator confirmed that this is the pokemon anise where you would think the protagonist will win but he won't.

And this is why I have such a huge issue with the writers. There's really no reason why they can't just let him have one major victory like most cartoon and anime protagonists do. The show would be over? It doesn't have to be really. DP made it clear that winning a league was just a step to becoming a Pokemon Master.

To be fair, Yugi had to overcome those particular kind of challenges. The stakes of most duels are usually bigger than what Ash has to go through with a regional League. In a duel, lives can be in danger, especially if you are facing off against major villains like Marik and Dartz. That's one reason why I wouldn't compare how they handled Yugi to how they've handled Ash. Ash losing doesn't mean that his friends are going to die or he's going to lose his soul. He can afford to lose without losing anything really important in the grand scheme of things. Yugi, as well as the other protagonists in the Yu-Gi-Oh! franchise, generally can't afford to lose in most cases.

It is true that the Yugioh writers often put Yugi in situations where he HAS to win and Ash doesn't ever really face the life threatening battles that Yugi does. He never really has any battles where there are actual stakes, like someone losing their life. The only case I remember where there was a stake was in BW when Ash was going to fight for Bianca's right to continue her journey, though even then he still lost due to Elesa needing her moment to shine. Even then that was still very minor compared to what Yugi faced. It just bugs me though that he's not allowed to win and come closer to his dream. To be honest though, a lot of the protagonists I think of do fall into the category you mention, of having to win because lives depend on it.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Well he is the protagonist and this time, everything was in his favor, Ash had 2 battles with Alain prior to the league and he didn't win even once. Ash always defeats a rival by the end of the series and that happens in the league. Many of the magazines said how Ash would achieve his victory. Some even said "the battle ends and Ash emerges as....". This was the reason for the kalos league backlash. I didn't mind any of his previous loses but I'm still salty about this one.
Btw, it's clear now that Ash is never going to win a league since that animator confirmed that this is the pokemon anise where you would think the protagonist will win but he won't.

The rivals Ash defeats in the Leagues are labeled as his main rivals, such as Gary, Paul and Trip. I don't think that Alain really fits as the main rival figure for Ash in the same way that characters like Gary and Paul were. I think that they tried to use the League to build up to their fight in an attempt to make up for a lack of main rival battle for Ash to face or to make it seem like Alain is Ash's main rival figure in XY, but I'd still say that he doesn't really have a main rival figure in this series. I thought that the lack of a main rival for Ash in XY was a good thing after how horrible Trip was, but in retrospect, it might have been a problem to give him various rivals who he could defeat and then one overpowered one near the end of the series instead. It probably was a factor as to why they forced Alain into the Kalos League when he could have just easily waited for the Kalos League to end in order to face Ash again.

I don't think that Ash not defeating Alain at least one time was something new. This happened before with Dawn and Zoey as Dawn lost to Zoey in the Grand Festival finals even though Dawn didn't defeat her at least one time in battles/competitions despite Zoey being the main rival to Dawn. In that case, it was more likely the same reason that Ash wasn't able to defeat Alain in the League finals.

That is true and while people were disappointed that Dawn didn't win back then, I don't think it had the same amount of backlash for a couple of reasons. Dawn and Zoey had more of a mentor/student kind of relationship rather than a more standard rivalry. Zoey often supported Dawn throughout her journey. Dawn's goal was always to meet Zoey again in the finals instead of just beating her. She obviously would have loved to become Top Coordinator, but it's not what their rivalry was all about. They also didn't make Zoey to look like an unbeatable insanely strong Coordinator. After Ash had already battled against Alain twice, people thought that they were building up to Ash winning. Even making Alain ridiculously overpowered could have been taken as building him up to a fall and that fall being from Ash. I'm not sure if that's the reason they had Alain win when their rivalry is so significantly different compared to Dawn and Zoey's.

It is true that the Yugioh writers often put Yugi in situations where he HAS to win and Ash doesn't ever really face the life threatening battles that Yugi does. He never really has any battles where there are actual stakes, like someone losing their life. The only case I remember where there was a stake was in BW when Ash was going to fight for Bianca's right to continue her journey, though even then he still lost due to Elesa needing her moment to shine. Even then that was still very minor compared to what Yugi faced. It just bugs me though that he's not allowed to win and come closer to his dream. To be honest though, a lot of the protagonists I think of do fall into the category you mention, of having to win because lives depend on it.

It's even more minor when you consider that their main justification for Bianca continuing on her journey was that they all sometimes travel together. I can understand being upset that he still hasn't won a game related region League, but I do think that not having anything major on the line is a big factor. It's pretty common for young protagonists to need to win for something bigger than just their dreams, especially in shows aimed at kids. They have to save their friends, lives, the world, etc. Ash's League battles aren't on that huge scale. If he loses, he can just go into another League. It's no big deal in the grand scheme of things. I wouldn't say that it teaches kids that they'll never accomplish their dream no matter how hard they work at it, but rather that there is always someone out there stronger than you and you can always keep trying to reach your dream. Trying in spite of defeat is inspiring in a sense.

 

[Keshav]

It's even more minor when you consider that their main justification for Bianca continuing on her journey was that they all sometimes travel together. I can understand being upset that he still hasn't won a game related region League, but I do think that not having anything major on the line is a big factor. It's pretty common for young protagonists to need to win for something bigger than just their dreams, especially in shows aimed at kids. They have to save their friends, lives, the world, etc. Ash's League battles aren't on that huge scale. If he loses, he can just go into another League. It's no big deal in the grand scheme of things. I wouldn't say that it teaches kids that they'll never accomplish their dream no matter how hard they work at it, but rather that there is always someone out there stronger than you and you can always keep trying to reach your dream. Trying in spite of defeat is inspiring in a sense.

5 loses were enough but the 6th? Well, I don't see how it is inspiring. I think they never made Ash the person that children can see as a role model.

 

[Gengarzilla]

No matter what kind of bullcrap they invent next time we have a regional league conference, I won't be too bothered. Ash demonstrated that he is in this for the journey and the resulting thrill of finding his next battle by turning down his Frontier Brain candidacy. Very little would probably change if he actually won the Kalos League.

Another thing that I've just twigged on. Who else would remain as optimistic as him after six consecutive league losses? This guy just doesn't give up. That's the good message I've been picking up from Ash lately, don't throw in the towel no matter how much times you get knocked down. He might not be the very best like no-one ever was, but I'll be damned if he hasn't been giving this trainer thing a great effort throughout almost 20 years.

Quite honestly, he's the show's ultimate underdog and the Pokémon world's best loser. That's good enough for me. You've gotta be good to make second place look awesome.

 

[ii kanji]

it seems like they're also saying no matter how hard you try, there will always be someone better than you

Yes, and? This is absolutely true and can be a driving force for people to improve throughout their lives.

Honestly, reading these posts makes me wonder what some of you actually do in real life to make you feel so strongly that you're only worth it if you can be the very best in your field. Even in competitive sports the non-winning athlete is generally regarded highly and considered for their qualities, not just seen as "only silver medal". I can't think of anything else where this attitude of only number one could even exist.

Satoshi is a shining success story in his chosen line. At just 10 years he has gone through all kind of challenges (I'm not talking about just leagues here...) and continues to do amazingly well on a competitive front. He has a glittering career ahead of him still.

 

[Jaye]

It's called pay off.

When a story builds to a climax the expectation is that all the emotional investment people have put into characters will be rewarded in some way. You follow Ash on his whole journey, see his mistakes and successes, his hopes and dreams, etc. and it all builds to a point at the end of every saga, so naturally you want to see something come of all that.

The leagues often serve as unsatisfactory pay off to Ash's story arc because they don't effect anything except reinforce the Aesop that someone is always better than you. Ash winning would be a good pay off, like how Naruto beating Neji way back when was good pay off. It's the sort of crowning moment people like. Equally, Ash losing and undergoing a change of sorts would also be good pay off. When the show doesn't go either way and just carries on as normal it devalues the progress it made up to that point.

The Kanto league was the only time they actually did this right, I feel. Ash realised after his defeat to Richie that he wasn't as good as he thought he was and had to be a better trainer. The experience changed him. But every league defeat since has been greeted with a shrug of indifference, a sort of "oh, we gave our best, what else can we do?" which is a bit boring.

Basically, the viewer wants to be vindicated for putting their time and emotion into a show.

 

[ii kanji]

I agree that we could do with a little more emotional reaction from Satoshi... It's flat out weird that he's not disappointed. I still remember Haruka crying after losing one of her GFs and how emotional that was (even though I despised her at the time of airing).

 

[Silktree]

The leagues are only worthwhile if the main rivalries are. Ash defeating Gary and Paul was satisfying, but that's about it unless you just care about the action.

The Kalos League could have never been truly interesting with the way the rivals were handled. Hopefully the Sun and Moon series will treat Gladion as a real rival even if he has nothing to do with the island trials.

 

[p0pp1i0D3f3nd3r]

I certainly wouldn't be against Ash winning a League and I think he does need some major victory under his belt

Me Neither; in fact I'd want to see him win more than anything as far as the anime goes.

 

[Lyrebird]

I agree that we could do with a little more emotional reaction from Satoshi... It's flat out weird that he's not disappointed. I still remember Haruka crying after losing one of her GFs and how emotional that was (even though I despised her at the time of airing).

Needs to be more Andy Murray esq

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I mean it is kind of a close comparison. Andy couldn't win a thing until bam it happened and then he won 2 more plus 2 Olympic Gold. So I did kind of expected it to be Ash's Murray breakthrough but nope.