Brock, Cilan and Tracey: Why Bother?

[matt0044]

I'll leave out XY given it's just starting. Anyways, it bugged me how Brock, Tracey and Cilan were brought onto the show only to amount to literally zilch. Little to no character arc, little involvement in any major plots. More often than not, they felt like they were added to the show at the very last minute because of some obligation to give the cast more than two people. Could they've worked? Maybe but as is...

I'm not trying to hate them and I don't want to. But aside from Brock being a wise mentor yet quicky character in OS, he really deteriorated during AG and more so in DP. Cilan was just... there to be all bishonen-y and crazily geeky. Tracey... was just there as a stand in for Brock.

I mean, can't Ash just get Take-Out?

Thoughts?

 

[Beth Pavell]

I do see your point, especially in regards to Brock. Aside from the running ga-ga gag, he didn't do much other than explain things to the audience. Cilan, though, I think had more of an active role in the show. He regularly took part in tournaments and usually had something to contribute to a filler plot.

In general I don't mind less development from companions - hell, I actually quite like how Serena has no VERY BEST goal - what bugs me is when they stand around as a cheer squad waiting for Ash to finish up the plot of the day.

 

[matt0044]

Cilan, though, I think had more of an active role in the show. He regularly took part in tournaments and usually had something to contribute to a filler plot.

I REALLY wish he had a clearer Connoisseur arc. It could've been really interesting. Like even Iris had something going for her with her vague Dragon Master arc (like her character, not so much her goal, mind you).

 

[Bland Mango]

I agree. With the removal of Pokemon contests the female slot has become irrelevant again as well as the secondary male.

Would prefer to see the female focus on Contests and the Male focus on Pokethlon

 

[Alola]

I get your point. Generally from what I've seen, the gist of these characters is mainly:

~To comment on abilities, moves, battles, Pokemon, practically everything, providing audiences with information they might not have known (or no other character will explain)
~To serve as an older occasional voice of reason
~To have a running gag or hobby (that usually goes stale at some point)
~To provide food for the gang and the gangs Pokemon (because after all these years Ash isn't capable of cooking, and neither are female characters)
~Catch very few Pokemon compared to other cast members. These Pokemon also get little screen time or development.
~Background/filler character just because
~Considerably older than the rest of the group
~Considerably taller than the rest of the group

Sorry to say but that is basically what Brock, Tracy and Cilan were comprised of. Sure they would get a few episodes dedicated to them, but they would often be minute in importance. Additionally, their overall goals do not compare to the main ones we have seen in the form of being a Pokemon Master or Top Coordinator. Heck, even the goals of becoming masters of a certain type (Water & Dragon, Misty & Iris) garner more focus.

So at a point, this really disturbed me. Especially with Brock in Sinnoh. Basically it was Ash and Dawn running the group camaraderie, and then other recurring characters and COTDs. Cilan didn't really help/differentiate, and the fact that he just wanted to travel with Ash for literally the heck of it didn't add to his charm either. Tracy was even worse than Cilan.

However, clearly the writers have picked up on this and that is why we have Clemont, a breath of fresh air. Not only is he the same age as Ash and Serena, but he has the dynamic of being an explicit older brother (Brock's siblings were always at home, and Cilan rarely interacted with his twins). He also has his trademark inventions along with his goal to become a stronger and better person. Not to mention, his Pokemon are shown frequently enough. And he isn't the designated knowledgeable character about everything, nor the most "mature" one. So characters like these, I prefer. And I hope they stay that way. I don't want to see Big-Brother-Brock like characters for a while yet.

 

[Bland Mango]

I get your point. Generally from what I've seen, the gist of these characters is mainly:

~To comment on abilities, moves, battles, Pokemon, practically everything, providing audiences with information they might not have known (or no other character will explain)
~To serve as an older occasional voice of reason
~To have a running gag or hobby (that usually goes stale at some point)
~To provide food for the gang and the gangs Pokemon (because after all these years Ash isn't capable of cooking, and neither are female characters)
~Catch very few Pokemon compared to other cast members. These Pokemon also get little screen time or development.
~Background/filler character just because
~Considerably older than the rest of the group
~Considerably taller than the rest of the group

Sorry to say but that is basically what Brock, Tracy and Cilan were comprised of. Sure they would get a few episodes dedicated to them, but they would often be minute in importance. Additionally, their overall goals do not compare to the main ones we have seen in the form of being a Pokemon Master or Top Coordinator. Heck, even the goals of becoming masters of a certain type (Water & Dragon, Misty & Iris) garner more focus.

So at a point, this really disturbed me. Especially with Brock in Sinnoh. Basically it was Ash and Dawn running the group camaraderie, and then other recurring characters and COTDs. Cilan didn't really help/differentiate, and the fact that he just wanted to travel with Ash for literally the heck of it didn't add to his charm either. Tracy was even worse than Cilan.

However, clearly the writers have picked up on this and that is why we have Clemont, a breath of fresh air. Not only is he the same age as Ash and Serena, but he has the dynamic of being an explicit older brother (Brock's siblings were always at home, and Cilan rarely interacted with his twins). He also has his trademark inventions along with his goal to become a stronger and better person. Not to mention, his Pokemon are shown frequently enough. And he isn't the designated knowledgeable character about everything, nor the most "mature" one. So characters like these, I prefer. And I hope they stay that way. I don't want to see Big-Brother-Brock like characters for a while yet.

I agree Clemont seems to at least have some usefulness and good qualities, though his devices always exploding is getting boring, how about a success now and again?

The problem now is his sister, much like Max in Gen 3, I am desperately trying to scratch my head to see the purpose of the annoying kid too young to own a Pokemon role, other than to irritate me.

Max was the font of all knowledge which was a role filled perfectly by Brock, and the dragging Brock away gag could easily have been fulfilled by May.
As for Bonnie, I'm completely lost at what she brings. Just an annoying 5 year old little girl which is all too common in real life, whaling at the top of her lungs about DA DEN AAAAAAAAAYYYY

 

[Beth Pavell]

I suppose whether or not you like Bonnie boils down to whether you find her charming or not. Personally I think she's adorable and appreciate that she acts more like a child - Max rarely ever did, which rather defeated the object of making him a small child in the first place

 

[Alola]

I suppose whether or not you like Bonnie boils down to whether you find her charming or not. Personally I think she's adorable and appreciate that she acts more like a child - Max rarely ever did, which rather defeated the object of making him a small child in the first place

I completely agree. I mentioned this earlier somewhere on a different thread, but anyways. Max, I felt, was too mature (the snarkiness, pulling Brock from girls/women) for his age. The fact that he was a mini-Brock 2.0 when it came to Pokemon, move, and ability facts (most of the time), didn't really help his character, and only served to hurt both his and Brock's roles; it just felt too repetitive.

Now that I think about it, he should be included with the aforementioned list of Tracy, Brock, Cilan etc. He was just a shorter, younger Pokemon-less version.

Bonnie actually acts within her age and offers vital comic relief as well, as far as one of her major roles are concerned.

 

[EvilChameleon]

I agree with you on Cilan, which is part of the reason why I watched all of 3 episodes of the Black/White saga, because I knew that Iris and Cilan weren't going to be around after the region was done. At least with Serena/Clemont/Bonnie there's a chance they'll travel with him to the next region.

 

[Shadao]

I think it was to fill out the trio space, and prevent any unintentional shipping moments between Ash and the main girl. Without a third foil to balance out, the main cast would be simply composed of Ash and Misty/May/Dawn/Iris/Serena. Such composition would make it extremely difficult for people to not notice any implications of romance between the two. It cannot be avoided, even if there was no romance between Ash and the main girl, if they only have each to talk to. Sure there are episodes that only feature Ash and Misty, Ash and May, and Ash and Iris alone with no third character and have worked out great (presumably, I have only seen the ones featuring Ash and Misty), but considering how often the main cast have to travel and how rare is it for them to meet recurring characters of the day, it would be best to have at least a third supporting cast member to balance out character interactions during the long story season. Of course it would have to depend on execution as well. That's my two cent on the matter.

 

[DracoMan]

I suppose whether or not you like Bonnie boils down to whether you find her charming or not. Personally I think she's adorable and appreciate that she acts more like a child - Max rarely ever did, which rather defeated the object of making him a small child in the first place

Not only that, but Bonnie is actually learning about Pokémon through hands-on practice, and she doesn't act like she already knows everything like Max did.

 

[matt0044]

I think it was to fill out the trio space, and prevent any unintentional shipping moments between Ash and the main girl.

And they can't just be written as friends? A male lead and female lead do not really need to be "lovers" and any shipping moments would be up to interpretation by the views mainly.

 

[Master Cyrus]

Because Ash would have died of starvation if they didn't bother.

 

[matt0044]

Because Ash would have died of starvation if they didn't bother.

Can't he get take outs? I think every other Trainer made it WITHOUT their own gourmet chef.

 

[The Great Gary Oak]

Because Ash would have died of starvation if they didn't bother.

Can't he get take outs? I think every other Trainer made it WITHOUT their own gourmet chef.

That requires money. It's expensive for most people IRL to eat out a lot; in the world of Pokemon, you have to rely on money you win by battling. Unless Ash or one of his female companions learned to cook at some point, he'd be flat broke. It's roughly 5-15$ for us to eat out somewhere. Multiply that times 3 (or more, since Ash likes to eat), then that total by seven (for each day of the week), and that's already a hefty amount: 105-315$ per week. There is no way Ash can afford that along with all the supplies he needs to keep his team in good condition between Pokemon Centers, let alone paying to sleep in certain towns from time to time along with other things.

You're also not taking into account that other trainers can cook for themselves. Ash (and several of his other companions, like Misty) can't. It's been shown he can't. He could get by on the barest of essentials if he tried, but in the end, he likely wouldn't be getting enough/efficient meals to sustain himself. The boy needs one of those chefs to TEACH him how to cook, then maybe he'd be set. It'd be cheaper in the long run for him to purchase items he could prepare on his own.

And...well, he likes having friends around him. Ash is a social person. Having that many companions is his thing. Yes, they could've forgone having the male companions if they really wanted to, but ultimately Ash seems fine with having them around. He's a ten year old boy: what ten year old boy doesn't want to have a few guy friends to play with? I'm not saying a boy can't have female friends, but most ten year old boys I know want to roughhouse and fight with boys around their age. Hell, in one manga adaptation, he ends up traveling with GARY. The other male companions also act as mentors to a certain degree: most of them are more level-headed and can provide information appropriate to the situation at hand.

They were there to be more then Ash's personal chefs: they were his friends, and they did play a role outside of cooking.

 

[Almonds]

I think it was to fill out the trio space, and prevent any unintentional shipping moments between Ash and the main girl.

And they can't just be written as friends? A male lead and female lead do not really need to be "lovers" and any shipping moments would be up to interpretation by the views mainly.

All the female leads up till BW were simply friends, and the shipping was left to the audience because nothing was ever official. Serena's the only girl who has legit, official, canon shipping moments with Ash since she clearly has a crush on him and the writers are involving romance in the plot for her and Ash regardless of who travels with them.

Brock should have left the show before DP at the very latest because he got really stale by then. Cilan was pretty cool - I really liked him (fan here). Tracey needed more screentime - he had really nice episodes, like the one where he catches the old Scyther.

Though I do agree Clemont is a nice change because Ash can relate to him better and Clemont wants to learn from Ash as well. They look more like BFFs than a boy and his big brother, so I like the difference

 

[Ambipom666]

While Cilan fills the same role as Brock/Tracey, I really don't think you can bash him the same way. I say the writers really tried with him, at least in the beginning. He had an actual goal, he had rivals, he partook in the tournaments (except for that one insignificant tournament from the Decolora Islands arc) he had a gimmick/personality and several episodes devoted to his gimmicks/persoanlity, and he was made to contrast and play off Iris... while he didn't really go anywhere in the end, I think it's clear the writers wanted him to actually do stuff and not just sit in the background like Brock v2.

I agree with you on Cilan, which is part of the reason why I watched all of 3 episodes of the Black/White saga, because I knew that Iris and Cilan weren't going to be around after the region was done. At least with Serena/Clemont/Bonnie there's a chance they'll travel with him to the next region.

You really think Serena's gonna stick around after May, Dawn and Iris all left at the end of their respective series? How is it you knew right away that Iris would leave, but you think Serena has a chance of sticking around? What makes her different? Her crush on Ash? Like that's gonna go anywhere. Also, it seems like Cilan was retired because the writers want to avoid having protags wear out their welcome like Brock arguably did (excluding Ash of course ). This series is likely to last at least another 2.5 years, possibly even longer, I don't think Clemont or Bonnie are gonna stick around after XY is over.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Since this question was asked in other sites, i might as well leave my thoughts on this in here as well.

Each and every one of mentioned male companions was needed having value and useful position they played in pokemon anime from my perspective.

Because while main anime is based around Ash anime doesn't and cannot determine that each and every companion role has to be played around him.
For example you could say how Brock stopped playing as much mentor and coach role to Ash like he did in Kanto, Johto but did he lost his purpose in pokemon series because of that? Not really because his position in anime was still productive shifting to role of more being explored about his own character, family and interests.

Writers in Hoenn expanded on his breeder career, had him catch more pokemon, get more evolutions and learn new things as breeder such as how to prepare new type of food(see pokeblock), exchange experiences with other breeders, utilize his knowledge in resolving disoutes between pokemon like Grovyle vs Tropius, Solrock and village people, agitated Magnezone and Metagross etc. Taking care of injured or sick ones such as Nuzleaf, Sharpedo or Bagon growing forward both as person and breeder.

While playing important role logistic wise taking care of Ash and co as older brother, provide supplies, give advices to May about her contest career and bring humor, sense of security and balance in main cast keepong things under control(just like he did with Misty and Ash when things escalated way out of control). Through his eccentric behavior, comedy nature of losing his head over other girls or sometime pokemon trying to use them for his own plan of gaining other girl attention(like Lotad), caring, solidary side in helping other pokemon revealing unselfish, passionate aspect he holds for pokemon himself transfering knowledge to others(like Dawn, Ash for example)etc.

And often helping Ash in training pokemon as his sparring partner in Hoenn or Sinnoh still coming up with strategies and help over his pokemon or gym battles(like vs Brawley for example, Winona, Chimchar, Treecko etc.)

Same applies to Cilan who was like navigator, older brother which due to his wise, more grown up attitide knew more about pokemon battles, strategy and events specific for Unova region than Ash was. Getting him familiar with customs, other gym leaders etc.

Bringing lot of flare, humor and tense atmosphere with his witty sophistry with Burgundy, clashing moments when getting into feud with Iris or Ash. Overdramatizing over his food, pokemon and various hobbies or showcasing vulnerable, fearful side to himself when paranormal things are in question.

All done with purpose of adding more diversity and energy in main cast, which in itself i already viewed as meritorious and important role in making things more appealing for viewers(because entertainment is often most important ingredient to catch people attention).

Or Tracey to lesser extent who got Ash and Misty more familiarized with Orange Islands archipelago, prepared food for them, was familiar with champion, gyms and how whole Orange league works. While serving as intermediator between Ash and Misty's more dynamic, hotheaded personalities by injecting calamity and at times amusing stinging through his jokes of them being in love, and feeling jeopardized/ flustered when Ash or Misty made sarcastic remarls over his subtle interest in other women.

Bringing us to important inference how; Worth of companion in pokemon series isn't tied solely to Ash role and how much their presence helps move Ash story forward.

Being ignored that point of pokemon isn't only in following Ash journey and him establishing friendship with other characters. But also in exploring lives of other companions which join him on journey, give viewer look in his own past, motives, issues over which he has yet to pass and see him advance his own goal. Follow development of his /her personality, pokemon and subplots centered around him.

With main and primary mesage of pokemon lying in promoting friendship between Ash and other friends which accompany him on journey, build on relationship with interaction over time gaining more substance, to see each and every one of them learn new things on their voyage, overcome obstacles, work toward progressing their goals and dreams. Along with gaining experience, knowledge and gradually maturing as result of that moving story forward through their own interests.

With not everything falling down on Ash back.

Yes you could say female companions like Misty, Iris, May or Dawn brought in general more emotion, depth and flare in characterization(in my humble opinon Misty did especially good job in that field). They received more character development, introspection of their own personalities, fears and aspirations than any male companion did. We learned more about their past, saw them battle more and advance their dreams leaving bigger impact on story.

All of this is true.

BUT, Cilan, Brock or Tracey to smaller extent played important role in pokemon anime through supporting role. Being backbone on which Ash and girls could rely when something wents wrong, made sure to look after younger members of cast to prevent them from mindlessly rushing in danger, did navigation , providing cast with supplies or help when pokemon was seriously injured or sick through battle, poison and exhaustion through preparation of potions and remedies(this especially holds truth for Brock). Being older, more experienced face which kept everything on hold, having their own pokemon, issues, insecurities in characterization. Most importantly dreams and wishes they wanted to accomplish.

Containing required appeal, humanity and uniqueness to grant them popularity and approval among fans. And im glad we had always additionalm male companion beside Ash to foil out gropup interactions and balance out tension, interactions which at times clashing personalities and interests between Ash and girls would occur. Showing us outlook on pokemon world, its creatures and sense of adventure through eyes of mature, older, more wise companions which had several flaws and many things to learn themselves too.

Which was noble and important role deserving credit for their contribution to pokemon anime in my opinion.

p.s. In regards to Serena having higher chance to stay for another region because of having crush on Ash, that doesn't play any say in whether she will be replaced or not once 7th generation comes around honestly. As it was showed with Misty who harbored romantic feelings toward Ash as well(it was pretty obvious at times imo), but in end it played no difference in her character being kept.

For simple reason of pokemon not being anime based around romance with its current limitations and audience its primarily geared to not leaving enough maneuver space that such concept plays premise for substantial growth influencing story much at all.

 

[EvilChameleon]

You really think Serena's gonna stick around after May, Dawn and Iris all left at the end of their respective series?

I believe so, yes. It feels like this series has been a reboot of sorts, with the original theme returning, the original Team Rocket motto returning, etc. I'm not saying she will stick around forever, but at least for the next region.

 

[matt0044]

That requires money. It's expensive for most people IRL to eat out a lot; in the world of Pokemon, you have to rely on money you win by battling.

Games, yes, you're given victory money. Anime, no, not really. It's never shown and likely wasn't adapted. How did Brock (and those other Trainers) himself afford the food to cook with?

In addition, why couldn't Ash be written as being a decent cooker, learning how for his journey?