Bulbapedia Changing "Gender" to "Sex" in the appropriate fields

[BlisseyandtheAquaJets]

Pokémon officially do not have Genders, they have Sexes.

Due to fear of puritanical parents and their offense lawyers, the translation team changed a Japanese phrase that meant "The biological sex you are born with" into the English phrase "gender", which is politically and biologically incorrect, and is a form of censorship.

In the interest of political and biological correctness, I would like to bring up the changing of all "gender" areas in Templates to "Sex".

Gender is what a life-form self-identifies as its sexual role in society, while sex is the term for which reproductive parts a life form has.

Using Gender incorrectly is offensive to those with non-cis genders, and in the interest of political, biological correctness, wiki accuracy and fighting against the censorship of LGBTQA via cis males' misuse of terminology, I respectfully ask that we use the term from the more accurate term for the reproductive functionality that this template slot represents in regards to game mechanics.

Thank you.

 

[Tiddlywinks]

This is not a battle you can win. So long as the games call it "gender" in English, we will continue to call it "gender" as well. That's all there is to it.(Edit: I can only concede to the below. My confidence did not bear out.)

Using "sex" would not amount to any sort of "wiki accuracy" as you claim. As an English wiki, Bulbapedia's purpose is to faithfully represent the English Pokemon games and other English media (with some nods to other languages). People are supposed to be able to read the wiki or search the wiki, and be able to recognize Pokemon-specific terminology as it is used in the games and other media. To change "gender" to "sex" would be to present a lie, a misrepresentation, and would only confuse readers. That is not (or should not) be in line with Bulbapedia's goals.

If you wish, you are entirely welcome to edit the Gender page to better clarify that "gender" as used in the games actually refers to "sex".

As far as any offense caused by the inaccuracy, you should try to petition TPC or Nintendo...or almost anyone but Bulbapedia.

You're welcome. =)

 

[Fig]

This is not a battle you can win. So long as the games call it "gender" in English, we will continue to call it "gender" as well. That's all there is to it.

Whether or not that's "all there is to it" is not for you to say, you know.

While I agree that we have a responsibility to be accurate to the English games (and that means we have to use gender), Bulbagarden also has a commitment (and thus, responsibility) to support our LGBTQA members (and Bulbapedia is part of Bulbagarden, so that applies to the Pedia too). Here, the two conflicts, and we have to find the best way to remain accurate (which, you're right, is a key goal) without abandoning our other commitments.

This means the issue needs serious consideration. It does not deserve summary dismissal.

 

[Osprey]

Just got this to say... some of us have used the word "gender" to refer to something's biological sex. And not all of us are acutely politically correct. Last I checked, the two terms are synonymous in your average dictionary. If you find it offensive, I can't change your mind, but please don't heckle those who prefer to just say it how they want to, especially if they're doing so without malicious intent.

I'm more than willing to bet that the games themselves use the term "gender" to avoid using the word "sex," something that a lot of other people find just as offensive.

 

[Tiddlywinks]

This is not a battle you can win. So long as the games call it "gender" in English, we will continue to call it "gender" as well. That's all there is to it.

Whether or not that's "all there is to it" is not for you to say, you know.

While I agree that we have a responsibility to be accurate to the English games (and that means we have to use gender), Bulbagarden also has a commitment (and thus, responsibility) to support our LGBTQA members (and Bulbapedia is part of Bulbagarden, so that applies to the Pedia too). Here, the two conflicts, and we have to find the best way to remain accurate (which, you're right, is a key goal) without abandoning our other commitments.

This means the issue needs serious consideration. It does not deserve summary dismissal.

I thought that might be a possibility, but I didn't really expect it... Let me reframe myself: I don't think the proposed change should happen, because I really don't think we should be overruling the games when they've been very clear and consistent (we did, after all, have FAINT Attack for forever); however, I'm not against discussion and consideration of *some* sort of accomodation. (That said, I can't really imagine what form that might reasonably/responsibly take (responsible as in responsibility as a Pokemon wiki) short of what I've already suggested above.)

 

[Fig]

It's a though situation and I'm not sure how much we can manage. I also TEND to agree we should refer to it as "gender" since that's how NOA (stupidly) refers to it (though I probably wouldn't object to doing it the other way either).

But like I said, this deserves serious discussion and consideration, so saying "That's all there is to it" is not something I'm okay with.

 

[SeanWheeler]

"Sex" just makes me think of that inappropriate image where a naked man and woman doing something in bed.

Anyway, I always used and heard "gender" as whether someone is male or female. Not if someone is gay, lesbian or straight. That's something called "sexual orientation". So, I actually agree with Nintendo on this one. And besides, all Pokémon appear to be straight, so what's the big deal?

 

[godiego]

Anyway, I always used and heard "gender" as whether someone is male or female. Not if someone is gay, lesbian or straight. That's something called "sexual orientation". So, I actually agree with Nintendo on this one. And besides, all Pokémon appear to be straight, so what's the big deal?

well, you're not completely wrong. to keep it on the easy and lite side: gender is a social construct. there is an aspect of someone being male or female, but gender isn't necessarily limited to one or the other (because it's not something that's factually determined like biological sex). Queer, the Q in LGBTQA, largely refers to those that do not adhere to "standard" gender norms. these can include people who are genderfluid (their presentation can change) or agender (they have no "preferred" presentation).

even though i identify as a queer person, i don't necessarily disagree with you. however, presuming you aren't a member of the LGBTQA (etc.) community, i don't really think this is a place for you to necessarily weigh in. it has no bearing on you.

 

[Lysson]

Gender is what a life-form self-identifies as its sexual role in society, while sex is the term for which reproductive parts a life form has.

Then the term 'sex' is actually transphobic. It implies you have to have the bits to go with your gender, and you don't. Why are genderless people called agender/genderless and not asex? For that reason, 'gender' is something you identify with and 'sex' is what you were born with. I have found a definition of the two:

Sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics, while gender refers to behaviors, roles, expectations, and activities in society. Sex refers to male or female, while gender refers to masculine or feminine

so if bulba used the term 'sex' it would exclude genderless people. For sex simply means male or female.

It also wouldn't sit very well with the asexual community by saying that they have a gender because they're supposed to have sex. Seeking biological correctness is not something we're after, that actually seems transphobic. Whereas gender is just your characteristics which is more so accurate to what asexual and trans people want.

Also another reason transgenders have stopped using the term transsexual is because of the negative connotations.

As a source for what I am saying: GLAAD Media Reference Guide - Transgender Issues | GLAAD

This basically backs me up as to why we should use the term 'gender' instead of 'sex'.

 

[Fig]

That link you posted say...exactly nothing of the sort. What it says is :

What reproductive bits you have, what your chromosome are = sex. It describes biological aspects.
What social role, identity you identify with, see yourself as part of = gender. It describes social and personal aspects.

Which is the point being made here.

The fact that there is no term for a being or entity without sexual organs (eg, genderless in pokémon terms) does not change the fact that gender is not the right term for what reproductive bits a person or animal has. Something the link you gave very explicitly state.

 

[Lysson]

That link you posted say...exactly nothing of the sort. What it says is :

What reproductive bits you have, what your chromosome are = sex. It describes biological aspects.
What social role, identity you identify with, see yourself as part of = gender. It describes social and personal aspects.

Which is the point being made here.

The fact that there is no term for a being or entity without sexual organs (eg, genderless in pokémon terms) does not change the fact that gender is not the right term for what reproductive bits a person or animal has. Something the link you gave very explicitly state.

Ah, I'm still a little confused. But I think I understand your point and I'm probably barking up the wrong tree.
Or in the wrong section... the wiki section .-. so yes, sex is the right term to use when talking about a Pokemon. I thought we were talking about our gender options on bulbagarden.

As far as I've gathered from the link it seems to me that the term 'sex' = bad when talking about gender identification, which is irrelevant to Pokemon.

 

[Fig]

Oh, yeah, in THAT case you'd be right. Gender is definitely what we want to use here on the forums.

 

[dman_dustin]

The problem is, and maybe it's something that is unintentionally avoided for obvious demographic reasons, but I never thought Pokemon as with reproductive organs (in the sense that humans are most familiar with in most species of animals).

I say this because some species of Pokemon are only of a certain gender. Can Heatran really have different "sexes" if it can't reproduce. I mean what animal has 2 identifiable sexes and yet can't reproduces.

And what do you make of the very strange Pokemon that honestly shouldn't even have "sexual organs" and yet identify as either male or female (like Honedge). To make matters worse Nidoqueen is female and yet cannot reproduce, apparently a mutated version of it being female.

I don't know it seems to me that the based on the Pokemon themselves, that it seems to me that the Pokemon are more about gender than sex. Because I think very little has to do with biology of the actual Pokemon, and potentially only the Pokemon that are related to real life animals can think of it in that manner.

So I think its lumped up into a single category of gender, because some Pokemon don't seem like they would even have sexual organs that would be different, and the biology aspects seem more like a way to "breed" eggs. I guess for some Pokemon.

I mean I understand the "sex" and biological aspect because attract/cute charm/rivalry wouldn't work if there wasn't some biological factor, but I don't know, I don't think some Pokemon can be considered biologically male/female, and only are identified as that gender and because there's a mix of biological aspects with "gender identification" I think they just called it "gender"

 

[The Infidel]

Exactly this is just someone trying to impose their ideology on a Pokemon game for good ness sake.

Pokemon don't have this gender fluid thing going on, you don't get Pokemon that say, im female but actually identify as a male. Real life humans, yes that's a thing, but so far as we know, there is no example of this in the Pokemon Universe.

In real life gender/sex is fluid etc, you can have transgender people, and all sorts in between, but in Pokemon, unless you have a cheating device, there is male, female, and genderless, all Pokemon are 1 of the 3, and so far there is no recorded example of a Pokemon wishing to or being able to change apart from the Azurill glitch which has been fixed.

 

[BlisseyandtheAquaJets]

I mostly meant it for the Pokémon people. Since the likelihood of a human's gender identity being revealed is more likely, that should not change to "Sex".

 

[Fig]

Exactly this is just someone trying to impose their ideology on a Pokemon game for good ness sake.

Pokemon don't have this gender fluid thing going on, you don't get Pokemon that say, im female but actually identify as a male. Real life humans, yes that's a thing, but so far as we know, there is no example of this in the Pokemon Universe.

In real life gender/sex is fluid etc, you can have transgender people, and all sorts in between, but in Pokemon, unless you have a cheating device, there is male, female, and genderless, all Pokemon are 1 of the 3, and so far there is no recorded example of a Pokemon wishing to or being able to change apart from the Azurill glitch which has been fixed.

The distinction you make between "real life" and "Pokémon" is rather meaningless. The english language remain the English language either way, and (at least today), Gender and Sex are not alternatives for one another.

Pokémon is using the words wrong. It's that simple.

However, we, as a Pokémon encyclopedia, have a general responsibility to respect common usage in the (English) pokémon games, even when it's wrong.

-----------

dman_dustin raises an interesting point, though, about those odd species that don't operate within the normal earth constraints of sex and reproduction.

 

[The Infidel]

Exactly this is just someone trying to impose their ideology on a Pokemon game for good ness sake.

Pokemon don't have this gender fluid thing going on, you don't get Pokemon that say, im female but actually identify as a male. Real life humans, yes that's a thing, but so far as we know, there is no example of this in the Pokemon Universe.

In real life gender/sex is fluid etc, you can have transgender people, and all sorts in between, but in Pokemon, unless you have a cheating device, there is male, female, and genderless, all Pokemon are 1 of the 3, and so far there is no recorded example of a Pokemon wishing to or being able to change apart from the Azurill glitch which has been fixed.

The distinction you make between "real life" and "Pokémon" is rather meaningless. The english language remain the English language either way, and (at least today), Gender and Sex are not alternatives for one another.

Pokémon is using the words wrong. It's that simple.

However, we, as a Pokémon encyclopedia, have a general responsibility to respect common usage in the (English) pokémon games, even when it's wrong.

-----------

dman_dustin raises an interesting point, though, about those odd species that don't operate within the normal earth constraints of sex and reproduction.

It's not really Pokemon using the words wrong, it's more that they just aren't catering to your political beliefs. Pokemon are saying that Pokemon born male always identify as male, Pokemon born female always identify as female, and Pokemon born genderless always identify as genderless.

Now in real life I agree with you this is not the case, there are plenty of people born one gender but who identify as another, and some people have their own gender labels outside of Male/female/neither. But Pokemon does not have to incorporate that into their games, and it's not wrong of them to not do so.

I'm a member of the LGBT community, and so far, all Pokemon have been heterosexual, we know in real life this is not case, humans and animals both show instances of homosexuality, you may feel that Pokemon should have a 5% chance of being gay but that doesn't mean Pokemon is "wrong" for choosing not to include it in their game.

 

[Fig]

Stretched, given that the majority of translations and the original Japanese do use the proper "sex".

Seems more like a (poor) attempt by translators to avoid using the S-words by misusing the G-word as if it meant the same thing.

 

[Tusken Raider]

Pokémon officially do not have Genders, they have Sexes.

Due to fear of puritanical parents and their offense lawyers, the translation team changed a Japanese phrase that meant "The biological sex you are born with" into the English phrase "gender", which is politically and biologically incorrect, and is a form of censorship.

In the interest of political and biological correctness, I would like to bring up the changing of all "gender" areas in Templates to "Sex".

Gender is what a life-form self-identifies as its sexual role in society, while sex is the term for which reproductive parts a life form has.

Using Gender incorrectly is offensive to those with non-cis genders, and in the interest of political, biological correctness, wiki accuracy and fighting against the censorship of LGBTQA via cis males' misuse of terminology, I respectfully ask that we use the term from the more accurate term for the reproductive functionality that this template slot represents in regards to game mechanics.

Thank you.

I'm certain both words mean the same thing. Nintendo, Game Freak and The Pokémon Company aren't going to use the word "sex" because it also a term used for sexual intercourse. However I think the term sex can be used on Bulbapedia to describe a Pokémon.

 

[Stratelier]

Which is basically what Figment already said...

Seems more like a (poor) attempt by translators to avoid using the S-words by misusing the G-word as if it meant the same thing.

That makes total practical sense, English (okay, American) culture doesn't like to use the "S-word" very often, especially around younger audiences, so "gender" is considered an appropriate euphemism even when there is a movement these days to enforce a distinction between the two terms.

Stretched, given that the majority of translations and the original Japanese do use the proper "sex".

Should I request some statistics to back up this "majority" you cite? Or would that be considered nitpicking?