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Conclusions, Speculation, and the end of the Battle Frontier

AK2AK2AK2

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With Ash almost at the Battle Pyramid and May a few weeks ago from getting her final ribbon, I have a few questions I need to openly ask alout to myself.

1. Is Brendan and the final symbol the final stage? Or is there a league for the Battle Frontier? Will it be significant like the Kanto/Johto/Hoen leagues, are a one battle shorty like the Orange League? According to the dub version at least, in leagues like the Indigo one, the champ obtains the title of "Pokemon Master" (in the anime) for winning these tournaments.

2. Will Ash win? He went from 16th to 8th place in leagues. Plus, last time it was close. If Pikachu's Iron Tail just had a LITTLE more umph, Meowth in Boots would have gone down- Ash would have beaten the guy who would go on to win the championship- meaning Ash could have. Meaning, Ash almost won the least league, despite ranking.

3. Will may won the Ribbon Cup this year? The "Start!" intro shows a Ribbon Cup behind her, and all her Pokemon surround her. Fancy art, or a hint from the writers? I believe with her final defeat of Harley (will it be?) with the next ribbon (and possibly getting Jessie out of the way forever) the championship could be the long awaited final showdown with May and Drew.

4. Jessie/James/Meowth are in the 9th movie, but with the TR disbandment episode, we can assume with 50% accuracy that the ORGANIZATION may be gone, without are 3 favorite villians knowing it for a while. They could even go rogue like Bannai. With such an event, the show seems to be coming to an end.

5. Let's face it, Pokemon is a money making machine, and the games will be around for MANY years, like Zelda or Mario. BUT does this mean that the anime will be around for each new set of games, with a filler series to fill up time, 10 years from now. The show is not to far away from being the longest running anime of all time- it is eclipsing the length of Dragon Ball (with all 3 series combined). Will the writers pull the plug soon. I mean Ash put up a good fight with Agatha, and Scott said that the trainers at the Battle Frontier are almost as strong as the Elite 4! Plus, "Start" and "Glory Day" keep on bringing ALL of Ash's Pokemon together, for a final thrust type of feel.

Is this arc the end? The next one? 5 years from now? I don't know. Many speculated with the Johto and Hoen leagues, only to be proven wrong. Fact is, money will say how long things go. But the anime has MUCH smaller ratings in Japan and America than it once did. How long can they stretch the show for? Doing so killed the show pretty much- with Johto. It was only new innovations (not the same problem of the day, TR interrupting, Pokemon of the day beat up Team Rocket scenario) in the Hoen arc half the time, refreshing new characters like May and her contests, and the quality of Gym Battles (which started involving strategy in Johto) which saved the show- Battle Frontier continues these trends- plus the writers have done something they never did before- they have had most of Ash's team evolve. I am awaiting with certainty, for Corphish to do so.

What do you think? I've been watching the show since 98, and I gotta say that I think it has had it's run. I enjoy it, but I don't want the writers to try ridding a dead horse here. And you know what? I think Ash and May deserve the glory they may earn- 4th and 8th place are very close to the tip of the mountain. And for every good episode, fillers included, there are too many BAD filler episodes- and I don't know if ANYONE here wants another 150 episode arc where 130 of the episodes have the same run-of-the-mill scenario that I described earlier.

Perhaps the writers will pull a Yu-Gi-Oh GX on us and make a new story, Pokemon Rangers for example, with their own plot. I don't know, whatever they can market.

I have found from watching this show all these years, that I have had a lot of rewarding episodes, many actually in the Johto arc, but it's HORRIBLE episodes like the first 2 battle frontier eps (the Oak ranch one, SAME recycled plot, 4th time, and the stupid Clefairy one- with the group seperation (5th/6th time) plot that has been used so many times) Boring, recycled episodes like that do NOT help ratings, marketing, or serve the fans. The writers are tired- they are on a time schedule- and after 400 episodes, sometimes run out of good ideas.

I guess what im saying is that I really like this show, and I would rather see it gracefully end now with a decent ending, instead of 8 years from now in another Johto-like arc. Right in the middle of a season, suddenly having the plot pulled, no conclusion. It's like putting a dying pet to sleep. And with the evolutions, dissolution of TR, and the hints and opening and ending themes, (not to mention May defeating all major rivals but Drew, and Ash almost on par with the Elite 4 now) it is safe to say that the writers may be wrapping things up. If not with the Battle Frontier, with the next arc.
 
AK2 said:
1. Is Brendan and the final symbol the final stage? Or is there a league for the Battle Frontier? Will it be significant like the Kanto/Johto/Hoen leagues, are a one battle shorty like the Orange League? According to the dub version at least, in leagues like the Indigo one, the champ obtains the title of "Pokemon Master" (in the anime) for winning these tournaments.

I'm pretty sure they'll be a final challenge for Ash after Brandon. Whether it'll be a league or one person remains to be seen.

2. Will Ash win? He went from 16th to 8th place in leagues. Plus, last time it was close. If Pikachu's Iron Tail just had a LITTLE more umph, Meowth in Boots would have gone down- Ash would have beaten the guy who would go on to win the championship- meaning Ash could have. Meaning, Ash almost won the least league, despite ranking.

It's more likely than not that Ash will trump the Battle Frontier challenge. This has nothing to do with the regular leagues though, so it's not like he doesn't have room to grow.

3. Will may won the Ribbon Cup this year? The "Start!" intro shows a Ribbon Cup behind her, and all her Pokemon surround her. Fancy art, or a hint from the writers? I believe with her final defeat of Harley (will it be?) with the next ribbon (and possibly getting Jessie out of the way forever) the championship could be the long awaited final showdown with May and Drew.

May isn't battling Harley in the next Contest, he's training Jessie to beat May because he doesn't want her in the GF.

Likewise, I don't think May will win the GF. Lots of people don't even expect her to beat Drew this time, let alone win the entire thing. It would be a bit of a copout to have her win only her second tournament when Ash has yet to win one.

4. Jessie/James/Meowth are in the 9th movie, but with the TR disbandment episode, we can assume with 50% accuracy that the ORGANIZATION may be gone, without are 3 favorite villians knowing it for a while. They could even go rogue like Bannai. With such an event, the show seems to be coming to an end.

Team Rocket breaking up doesn't effect the show. They can very well create new villains ala Magma/Aqua. This show has barely been about the villains anyway.

5. I mean Ash put up a good fight with Agatha, and Scott said that the trainers at the Battle Frontier are almost as strong as the Elite 4! Plus, "Start" and "Glory Day" keep on bringing ALL of Ash's Pokemon together, for a final thrust type of feel.

It does give it an epic feel, but Ash is far from achieving his dream.

. But the anime has MUCH smaller ratings in Japan and America than it once did. How long can they stretch the show for?

Not really. AG has been a complete success in both Japan and the U.S. It gets the highest ratings of any show on KidsWb, and it is incredibly popular in Japan. If anything, it's almost getting back to where it was when it was in fad status.

I enjoy it, but I don't want the writers to try ridding a dead horse here. And you know what? I think Ash and May deserve the glory they may earn- 4th and 8th place are very close to the tip of the mountain.

For the record, Ash came in the Top 8 in the Hoenn league, not the top 4.

And for every good episode, fillers included, there are too many BAD filler episodes- and I don't know if ANYONE here wants another 150 episode arc where 130 of the episodes have the same run-of-the-mill scenario that I described earlier.

I disagree. Hoenn was excellent, there were only about 10 of the 130 episodes that I'd consider bad. The Battle Frontier has been even better, with hardly any filler.

but it's HORRIBLE episodes like the first 2 battle frontier eps (the Oak ranch one, SAME recycled plot, 4th time, and the stupid Clefairy one- with the group seperation (5th/6th time)

I actually found those two episodes very good. The character interactions and the nostalgia factor made them very worth watching.

. And with the evolutions, dissolution of TR, and the hints and opening and ending themes, (not to mention May defeating all major rivals but Drew, and Ash almost on par with the Elite 4 now) it is safe to say that the writers may be wrapping things up. If not with the Battle Frontier, with the next arc.

Possibly, but with all the heavy D/P stuff on the way, I think it's a given that Ash (and May) will travel to the D/P region, because they still need room to develop.
 
I've been wondering if the Battle Pyramid itself is the "tournament". Maybe Ash has to battle his way past a bunch of trainers to get to Brandon.
 
It's looking like the Kanto GF will be after the Battle Pyramid, so we know that Ash will probably have something after that. The 7 symbols aren't there just to look pretty in his case...
 
Scott85 said:
It's looking like the Kanto GF will be after the Battle Pyramid, so we know that Ash will probably have something after that. The 7 symbols aren't there just to look pretty in his case...
Of course they're not, they're for bragging rights :p
 
AK2 said:
Is Brendan and the final symbol the final stage? Or is there a league for the Battle Frontier?

Okay to start off, BRANDON, not Brendan, is the last Frontier Brain and I believe that yes, he is the final challenge much like Drake was in the Orange League. Ash will win and get another shiny trophy for his room that will sit right next to the Orange League one.

AK2 said:
If Pikachu's Iron Tail just had a LITTLE more umph, Meowth in Boots would have gone down- Ash would have beaten the guy who would go on to win the championship- meaning Ash could have. Meaning, Ash almost won the least league, despite ranking.

The problem wasn't Pikachu's Iron Tail's umph, it was the freaking UBER Metagross that Tyson trained. The Pokemon took down Swellow, Grovyle, and almost Pikachu. Then, Tyson brought out his Meowth (at full health might I add) and it was over. So yes, other than Metagross, Ash almost won the least league, despite ranking.

AK2 said:
Will May win the Ribbon Cup this year?

I really hope not...at least not with the team she has now. It's a different story however if her Squirtle became a Warortle, her Eevee evolved into an Espeon/Umbreon, and she brought back her Beautifly. If all of that happens (or at least two of those things) I'm almost positive she will win.

AK2 said:
Jessie/James/Meowth are in the 9th movie, but with the TR disbandment episode, we can assume with 50% accuracy that the ORGANIZATION may be gone...With such an event, the show seems to be coming to an end.

Not quite. That's like saying when Misty left, the show was going to end. Just because a major character leaves doesn't mean that the show will end because of it. And hell, we don't know if anything will happen to team Rocket. It's all speculation

AK2 said:
The writers have done something they never did before- they have had most of Ash's team evolve. I am awaiting with certainty, for Corphish to do so.

NO, just, no. Corphish will and I mean WILL stay a Corphish. If it were to evolve...I'd...I'd.. I'd boycott the show...for a week or so...
 
Reply

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Scott85 said:
I'm pretty sure they'll be a final challenge for Ash after Brandon. Whether it'll be a league or one person remains to be seen.



<<It's more likely than not that Ash will trump the Battle Frontier challenge. This has nothing to do with the regular leagues though, so it's not like he doesn't have room to grow.>>

True, but this is the first time he has had a time that is nearly evolved. How much more CAN he grow? Again he was close to winning the last league, and he did decent against Agatha.



<<May isn't battling Harley in the next Contest, he's training Jessie to beat May because he doesn't want her in the GF.>>

My apologies, I read the sypnosis for the first part a few weeks ago, have yet to read the summary for the second.

<<Likewise, I don't think May will win the GF. Lots of people don't even expect her to beat Drew this time, let alone win the entire thing. It would be a bit of a copout to have her win only her second tournament when Ash has yet to win one.>>

True, BUT.

1. If she lost to Drew last time, why not bump up a rank and beat him this time? Unless he bumped up one too...
2. We have yet to know if there will be someone as powerful as Richard this year...
3. May could win, and then be dumped from the story like Misty was, even before Ash wins any major tournament- especially if the writers keep the show going for several more years.



<<Team Rocket breaking up doesn't effect the show. They can very well create new villains ala Magma/Aqua. This show has barely been about the villains anyway.>>

Aqua and Magma were just there because they were in the games and to spice up the show by appearing once between each gym. Kind of like the other Rocket members, the movie villians, the Pokemon mystery club, and Butch and Cassidy, they weren't the main villians. If J+J+M left it WOULD effect the show. They have appeared in every episode since the 2nd. The only other characters who can claim to have stayed on the show in every ep since they appeared are Ash and Pikachu.



<<It does give it an epic feel, but Ash is far from achieving his dream>>
True about the epic part. But how are you defining "far"? How many more arcs away?



<<Not really. AG has been a complete success in both Japan and the U.S. It gets the highest ratings of any show on KidsWb, and it is incredibly popular in Japan. If anything, it's almost getting back to where it was when it was in fad status.>>

Not true. Hoenn helped the ratings, but the show is nowhere where it once was in the Kanto days. Pokemon in America in the meantime is still airing with much fanfare, but it is nothing like it was in it's prime. They don't even bother releasing the movies to theater anymore.



<<For the record, Ash came in the Top 8 in the Hoenn league, not the top 4.>>
I was referring to May with the top 4 reference.



<<I disagree. Hoenn was excellent, there were only about 10 of the 130 episodes that I'd consider bad. The Battle Frontier has been even better, with hardly any filler.>>

I think you misinterpreted or misread my post, I was saying that Johto had the very flat story line. I agree that Hoenn was great.



<<I actually found those two episodes very good. The character interactions and the nostalgia factor made them very worth watching.>>

Yeah but how many times has the "kidnap Pokemon from Oak's ranch" and "split the groups up" ideas been used?



<<Possibly, but with all the heavy D/P stuff on the way, I think it's a given that Ash (and May) will travel to the D/P region, because they still need room to develop.>>

Again, how long in your opinion, do they need to develop? What about the games 6 years from now? 11?
 
Geodude said:
I've been wondering if the Battle Pyramid itself is the "tournament". Maybe Ash has to battle his way past a bunch of trainers to get to Brandon.

That would make that 2 parter (we can assume) very interesting! :-)
 
V Faction said:
Brendan is the Hero of Ruby and Sapphire.

Brandon is our Pryamid King.

Just to adress that issue:

I have not played the Ruby/Sapphire games for two years.

I have also seen the Pyramid leader's name pop up a few times in the last month.

So if I am off by one letter in the spelling of those names, sorry, but it's not like i've really been staying on top of the matter
 
Nintendo Theatre said:
Okay to start off, BRANDON, not Brendan, is the last Frontier Brain and I believe that yes, he is the final challenge much like Drake was in the Orange League. Ash will win and get another shiny trophy for his room that will sit right next to the Orange League one.



The problem wasn't Pikachu's Iron Tail's umph, it was the freaking UBER Metagross that Tyson trained. The Pokemon took down Swellow, Grovyle, and almost Pikachu. Then, Tyson brought out his Meowth (at full health might I add) and it was over. So yes, other than Metagross, Ash almost won the least league, despite ranking.



I really hope not...at least not with the team she has now. It's a different story however if her Squirtle became a Warortle, her Eevee evolved into an Espeon/Umbreon, and she brought back her Beautifly. If all of that happens (or at least two of those things) I'm almost positive she will win.



Not quite. That's like saying when Misty left, the show was going to end. Just because a major character leaves doesn't mean that the show will end because of it. And hell, we don't know if anything will happen to team Rocket. It's all speculation



NO, just, no. Corphish will and I mean WILL stay a Corphish. If it were to evolve...I'd...I'd.. I'd boycott the show...for a week or so...

1. I already adressed the first issue.

2. I know that. But the same arguement can be made for whenever Ash's Pikachu or Charizard control the battles untill near the end. The fact is that if Pikachu could have harmed Meowth in Boots a LITTLE more, and withstood that attack with a little more defense, Ash would have won.

3. Yeah but May's Pokemon rarely evolve. The writer's evolved Torchic because she needed SOME muscle on her (no offense, but matter of factly) girly and cutesy team (not that I dislike it). Her Beautifly had evolved from a Wurmple because it would have been virtually useless in a contest, otherwise.

4. Again, Team Rocket aren't as dispensible. Misty didn't DO much that made her a neccessity to the story. Brock did, which is probably why he returned so soon, but he was still disposable. Team Rocket are the people who have driven the plot for all the bad fillers, give the comedy relief, and sometimes alter the course of average episodes. They are the antagonists who are needed. Without them, there would be no conflict- thus no proper story line, resulting in very one dimensional episodes.

5. Hey dude, im just saying, ya know? Snorunt evolved/Treecko did/Tailow did/Phanpy did too. It seems to be the trend with Ash's new Pokemon.
 
AK2 said:
True, but this is the first time he has had a time that is nearly evolved. How much more CAN he grow? Again he was close to winning the last league, and he did decent against Agatha.

When he goes to the D/P region, he'll have all cute little unevolved forms again, that's how! :p

Even though Ash did a decent battle against Agatha, he's still probably no match for the rest of the Elite's. I would imagine Ash would be able to beat a league before testing his strength against the Elite's. Notice how each time Ash went up against an Elite 4 member, he lost. He's not at their level yet, improved as he may be.

1. If she lost to Drew last time, why not bump up a rank and beat him this time? Unless he bumped up one too...

That could happen, but she's still unlikely to win the entire tournament, as the writers could create a new rival just to beat her like they do with Ash.

3. May could win, and then be dumped from the story like Misty was, even before Ash wins any major tournament- especially if the writers keep the show going for several more years.

With the amount of spotlight they give her, I don't think she'll be dumped anytime soon, if ever. They've established her as the second most important character after Ash, and are even giving her her own theme song and ending. Basically, May is meant to be the "Ash" for the female demographic, so I don't see her going anywhere.

Not true. Hoenn helped the ratings, but the show is nowhere where it once was in the Kanto days. Pokemon in America in the meantime is still airing with much fanfare, but it is nothing like it was in it's prime. They don't even bother releasing the movies to theater anymore.

Of course ratings are not as high as in their prime, the fad is long dead! Are Pokemon ratings low? Not in any stretch of the imagination. Pokemon AG is the most popular cartoon on Saturday mornings, and in Japan it's even more popular than in the U.S. It'll never achieve fad status again, but that sure as heck doesn't mean ratings aren't good.

I was referring to May with the top 4 reference.

Uh, May also came in the Top 8 in the GF. Unless you mean she should come in the top 4 next time (?)

Again, how long in your opinion, do they need to develop? What about the games 6 years from now? 11?

That's a little too far in the future to think about, isn't it? I don't know how many more years the show will go on, however I DO think it's likely that Ash and co. will travel to the D/P region. In any case, I don't think the BF arc is the end.
 
Do not confuse the craze with the franchise itself.As Scott said,the Pokemon franchise is still VERY sucessful even though Poke-mania died out long ago.


And the Pokemon films' absence from american theaters can be blamed on 4Kids and Miramax.Partly 4Kids because they chose to take the quick cash (the cool $1 million Miramax offered),instead of selling the rights to Warner Bros again.If Warner Bros had acquired the rights again,movies 4 and 5 would've almost certainly been much more sucessful than what Miramax did with them.The last significant anime film here in the U.S. was Spirited Away,and that made around $10 million dollars.Pokemon 3,the last movie under WB's belt,made around $17 million dollars.Not to mention that Pokemon 3 was released during the craze's cooling down period.So with the right kind of marketing,movies 4 and 5 could've easly reached the $20 million dollar mark.


But Miramax on the otherhand just gave us a lot of empty promises about how they were going to "revitalize" Pokemon and that they were going to start a huge ad-campaign.In the end,movies 4 and 5 got little to no advertising,and Miramax decides to give each movie a limited release.How ass backwards does that sound? How the hell are you going to give a commercial family film a limited release? That's like releasing stuff like Hoodwinked (which was relatively cheap to produce),in only 200 theaters or so.You're supposed to give the movie a general release so you can actually make a profit.This is why Miramax's handling of the two movies is very suspicious.Either they did try to intentionally bury those 2 movies (for some reason),or they were just fucking stupid.
 
<i>Not to mention that Pokemon 3 was released during the craze's cooling down period.So with the right kind of marketing,movies 4 and 5 could've easly reached the $20 million dollar mark.</i>

News flash: Pokemon's "cooling down" period has lasted since about 2001 and it's been dropping ever since. Movie 4 would have done worse thaan 3, and 5 probably would have done even worse (even though it's better than either movie).
 
Scott85 said:
I'm pretty sure they'll be a final challenge for Ash after Brandon. Whether it'll be a league or one person remains to be seen.
If it's a person, then it will be Brandon. That's why the position of the Pyramid wasn't revealed until Ash got all of the other symbols.

Scott85 said:
Likewise, I don't think May will win the GF. Lots of people don't even expect her to beat Drew this time, let alone win the entire thing. It would be a bit of a copout to have her win only her second tournament when Ash has yet to win one.
She can beat Drew, but Drew isn't the most powerful coordinator. He has lost twice to the same person and I can see the same happening to May even if she does beat Drew.
 
FabuVinny said:
If it's a person, then it will be Brandon. That's why the position of the Pyramid wasn't revealed until Ash got all of the other symbols.

Two things about this doesn't fit:

1. It looks like the Battle Pyramid will be before the Grand Festival. You don't think they're going to end this arc with May do you?

2. After he beats Brandon, he gets a 7th symbol. Now, what was the purpose of these 7 symbols again? They're not there just to look pretty in his case.

It's the same reason the Grand Festival was created for May, otherwise she'd be collecting 5 ribbons for no reason. Scott must have some final challenge in store for Ash after he gets his 7th symbol, it's almost too obvious at this point. Especially since it'll end the saga with Ash, and not May, just like Hoenn ended.

She can beat Drew, but Drew isn't the most powerful coordinator. He has lost twice to the same person and I can see the same happening to May even if she does beat Drew.

True, but Jo-Jo and some others think that she still isn't good enough to beat him.

*shrugs*

I guess we'll wait and see what happens then.
 
Scott85 said:
1. It looks like the Battle Pyramid will be before the Grand Festival. You don't think they're going to end this arc with May do you?
My theory is Ash recompeting Indigo League Tournament, but it looks like we will have something after the Pyramid and Grand Festival and that will probably be focussed on Ash.

Scott85 said:
2. After he beats Brandon, he gets a 7th symbol. Now, what was the purpose of these 7 symbols again? They're not there just to look pretty in his case.
I don't think Ash will have to face a final opponent after the final opponent. Plus, we don't know what Ash gets from this one. It might be a trophy. Or a berry...
 
Could someone refresh my memory - why do we think the Battle Pyramid is going to come before the Grand Festival? Is it an episode title? I've lost track.
 
Jo-Jo said:
Could someone refresh my memory - why do we think the Battle Pyramid is going to come before the Grand Festival? Is it an episode title? I've lost track.

The Battle Pyramid is near Pewter City. The latest episode title has the gang returning to Pewter Gym. It's a pretty good bet that the titles announced next will be the Battle Pyramid.

We still don't even know where the Grand Festival is for that matter, and the gang are clearly headed to Pewter. So unless the Grand Festival is in Pewter too, (which I seriously doubt), then the Battle Pyramid is next.

The GF will probably be in a big city like Celadon or maybe in the Indigo Plateau.
 
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