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Continuing cycles of poverty and abuse

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Illidan

Yes We Can
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Parents, if anyone, pass along to their children values and morals that will shape their lives.

Let's say, for example if a family is poor, should they have children? I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to have them, I'm questioning whether or not it is in the best interest of said children to be introduced into this world.

If the parents can barely afford to support themselves and they bring a kid into the world, what kind of impact will that have? The child will grow up with an untold amount of difficulties. He'll feel jealous attending school with children who have "more", he'll struggle when he hits the end of High School and College may just be a pipe dream.

And let's not forget about alcoholism and drug abuse running through families. It's not morally permissable for a heroine addict or alcoholic to have a child until they've conquered their problem. A child will always learn what he/she sees. Statistically if a child sees and learns nothing but abuse (whether it be emotional or physical), that is all they will know and it will continue with them.

Once again, I may be making a topic that has some validaty in theory, but if I apply myself to said theory - things become abit warped. My father was an abusive man. Emotionally abusive. He never struck us, but never once told us he was proud of us or that he loved us. He himself was a sensitive man entangled within his own emotions and whenever he was hurt, he didn't know how to express it. He would either internalize or he would lash out. More often, he held it in and that was the worse of the two options. Today he's pretty much dead. He's been stuck in the same dead-end job for 14 years and pretty much doesn't acknowledge his children exist.

I didn't know it at the time, but my parent's divorce greatly impacted me. I struggled desperately to keep alive a relationship that I clearly knew wasn't right for me. I was blinded by how unaware I was of my psyche. Deep down, I was trying everything to not be like them - I wanted my relationship to work.

As much as I hate to admit it, I'm becoming more like them every day. I don't know how to express my emotions. While I have done everything in my power to break from the constraints of what held my parent's down (money and emotional stability) I find myself failing. I started life with alot of potential and while I have realized a great deal of it, I find myself riddled with many of their troubles. I still don't know how I'm going to pay for next semester's tution at school and I'm still convinced the world is cruel, cold, heartless and that literally no one out there could find it in themselves to love me.

I find myself lying, repeatedly. I lie to cover up my past, to hide my family and most importantly, to hide how I'm feeling. This is what I learned from my parents, that I should be ashamed of my life.

I actually found myself asking today, "Why was I made?". Why would my parents create me in such a shitty environment? Why would any parent have a child unless they knew they could raise them in the loving, nurturing place they needed to be raised in? I realize NO environment is going to be a utopia, but there need to be SOME elements present and financial security and emotional stability seem to be at the top of the list.
 
He himself was a sensitive man entangled within his own emotions and whenever he was hurt, he didn't know how to express it.
You know, that sounds exactly like my dad.
 
Barb said:
You know, that sounds exactly like my dad.

Let me ask you something: did your parents divorce? I don't know for sure, but if they did it would certainly support my idea that these patterns persist.

I despise my father. I don't know how to love because of him. I've become a walking, bloated mess. At times I find myself crying out to people that I'm not really a bad person, but all along I feel like I'm lying. I just don't believe it and he is the same way. He would always be quick to defend himself, but inside ou could tell he felt like he was the darkest, most evil person around.

Can a black heart persist, as do the elements present in the other patterns?
 
I think this is misc. discussion... Anyone second that?
 
ムーッツ said:
I think this is misc. discussion... Anyone second that?

I threw it here because of the underlying question: should people in knowingly unfavorable positions be allowed to produce children? It's not really a population concern, more than it is a concern for the quality of person being produced. If a child sees and learns abuse, they are likely to continue that line of abuse.

However, people are free to refute the idea. It's seems like something that could be debated.
 
This topic seems to be more about abuse than poverty, and poverty doesn't automatically lead to abuse.

Anyways I was physically, emotionally and sexually abused as a child, you need to move on and stop blaming your parents for your problems, it's not their fault if you "don't know how to love," you need to be your own person. And maybe you feel that abused kids' lives are so worthless that they should never even have been born, but don't speak for the rest of us -_-
 
To answer this question, you need to first answer what qualities you find favorable to raising a child, which would be an opinion. I will agree with you that abuse, alcoholism, and a whole lot of other bad things can be passed down the line. My father yells at lot when he's angry and makes really scary threats. I must've been threatened to severe harm, being thrown out of the house, or possibly death. I carry this anger in me, too. I don't like it, and I do believe it is detremental to any kind of social development that I'm trying to accomplish, but I would not say it makes me unable to socialize at all. My mother is a huge worry wart and so am I. Somehow I was raised to be gentle and caring, yet I also carry a very harsh discipline on myself. To violate my rules is inexcusable. Above all else, I want to fall in love. I just had to get a Pell Grant to go to community college. Then again, I had a 3.5 GPA in high school. I used loans to pay for the one semester and a half of university that I'm going to be paying back on until I'm 30. I still think I'm a good person, though, but my entire family is a bunch of good people as well. That's just me, though. My sister is doing a whole lot better: she is married, has her own house, has more money than I know my parents ever had, is expecting a baby, and is working on her Master's degree.

If you are asking whether I think people have a lot of considering to do before they start a family, then I would say yes, by all means yes. I am not, however, going to say what qualities it takes to raise a child, because I'm sure everyone has their own methods that produce a variety of results, but that is what makes everyone so unique, isn't it? I do have one question to ask, though-Do you do these things you say you do consciously, or do you find it to be a subconscious quality? If it is subconscious, then I don't know what to say. If it is conscious, then if you know what you are doing is wrong, then why do you do it? I can understand if emotions take over you sometimes, but still if you know better, then at least try to do better. Take a look inside yourself and ask who do you think you really are.
 
Sceptile 726 said:
]I do have one question to ask, though-Do you do these things you say you do consciously, or do you find it to be a subconscious quality?

It's definately a subconcious quality. I don't wake and say "I'm going to lie today", but when I'm put in a difficult situation I find myself instinctively covering up my past to avoid embarassment and the judgment of others.

ChaosRocket said:
Anyways I was physically, emotionally and sexually abused as a child, you need to move on and stop blaming your parents for your problems, it's not their fault if you "don't know how to love," you need to be your own person. And maybe you feel that abused kids' lives are so worthless that they should never even have been born, but don't speak for the rest of us -_-

I didn't say their lives were worthless. I suggested the idea that it may be morally irresponsible for an individual who knows they can't provide to have a child. A child raised in unfavorable circumstances always has the chance of "making it", it's just those chances are very low.

My primary focus was about how abuse (whether it be emotional or physical) can run through a family because that primarily relates to my situation. I expressed financial secuirty as another trouble that could lead to an endless cycle of pain-filled lives.

I touched on the issue of poverty because I wonder: is it ethical for parents who know they can't provide for a child properly to have one? Take a hypothetical couple. They wed quickly out of High School and end up with mediocre jobs. They can barely afford to hold up in a house of their own and a few weeks later, the wife ends up pregnant. A child comes along and what happens? He/She grows up learning that money was the reason they had limited food on the table. They learn that their clothes are too small because they had to receive handouts from shelters and whatnot. They actually make it through High School, but what happens when it comes time for paying for College? They can't rely on their parents. They can apply for grants, but everyone knows that doesn't cover eveything. They can get a loan, but that would do nothing but serve to throw them into debt as soon as they finish. Their likelihood of finishing College falls and they eventually drop out. They eventually find themselves in the same situation their parents were in. They end up having kids and again, the cycle continues. That's what I meant when it comes to poverty and financial security. While there are instances in which a person can move up in the class system, statistically you will not and you'll be dealing with the same problems your parents had.
 
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Then I have another proposal: It seems to me more like you're angry at your own situation in life. I know I'm going to end up having someone throw this in my face, but...STOP BEING NEGATIVE!!!!!!!! There is a small chance, yes, but there is still a chance. To put all the blame on the parents for being irresponsible is not entirely fair. Otherwise, I can only recommend therapy, if that is even possible.
 
You should pay attention to my advice, as long as you're blaming your parents for your problems, that's like saying you have no power or control over the situation yourself and are therefore incapable of changing anything or making things better for yourself. You need to take control of your own life and mental state instead of just blaming your parents and being bitter.
 
Let me ask you something: did your parents divorce? I don't know for sure, but if they did it would certainly support my idea that these patterns persist.
Yes, they did. They attempted reconciliation at least once, to my knowledge. They separated when I was two and the divorce was finalized when I was five. I know very little about my father.

should people in knowingly unfavorable positions be allowed to produce children? It's not really a population concern, more than it is a concern for the quality of person being produced. If a child sees and learns abuse, they are likely to continue that line of abuse.
It has been proven that if you grow up seeing and/or being abused, you are more likely to repeat that pattern in your adult life. However, what do you define as a 'knowingly unfavorable position'?

Your hypothetical situation of two people who get married right out of high school missed a few points. The parents may not have much in the way of material things. So what? Buying toys for your children does not automatically make you a good parent. The parents might scrimp and save for a while, but this does not mean that their child(ren) will automatically grow up thinking they're poor. It depends on the attitude of the parents.

The child(ren) may get grants for college, or take out student loans. Student loans aren't that hard to repay considering he/she will have a degree and will be paid substantially more than what a person owning only a high school diploma will. There are scholarships as well. The general rule of financial aid for college is "don't ask, don't get." The child(ren) and parents have to work together to determine what would be feasible. The child(ren) will probably have to work their way through college.

You do not always have a choice in life in terms of where you grow up and who raises you. You do have a choice in how you live your life. You can choose to be abusive or not. It is always possible to change your attitude.
 
Mozz said:
I think this is misc. discussion... Anyone second that?

ME!


Question, why should this be concidered a debate on "Abuse and poverty" because all i see is some slight proof on emotional abuse that isnt really debatable sure some people have a hard time expressing their emotions but I hardly think that is learned through parents or other "Superiors."

As much as i can read into this, The only debate here is whether this can be concidered a debate or idle whining.
 
Alabaster.j.cat said:
ME!


Question, why should this be concidered a debate on "Abuse and poverty" because all i see is some slight proof on emotional abuse that isnt really debatable sure some people have a hard time expressing their emotions but I hardly think that is learned through parents or other "Superiors."

As much as i can read into this, The only debate here is whether this can be concidered a debate or idle whining.

Sensitivity truly IS a lost art.

That's about all I've heard from people. "Deal with it" seems to summarize all your arguments.

So you're all in agreement that one's environment has NO bearing on what happens to a person? That their actions aren't a reflection of the disadvantages they've had or the abuse they've suffered, rather simply their naturally-born drive, motivation and personality?

If so I can completely rethink my image of myself and others whom have struggled through adversity. Those whom have conquered are truly strong individuals. Those who fell short... it's their own fault. They should have tried harder. And if they're unable to love they're truly a bitter, perverse soul with nothing but a dank pit where their heart should be.

Pardon my tone if it comes off as "sarcastic".
 
Let me put it this way my father was emotionally abusive, and I pushed him away for years (I'm only 17 so do the math) but i began talking to him a month ago and he explained his reasoning to why he didnt ever say things like "I'm proud of you" or the like, and I understood but he admitted that it wasnt right or fair to me because he would tell my brothers stuff like that . Well you see I'm am a very sensitive person, I'f I'm mad you'll know, If I'm sad, you'll know. I'm also what i guess you woud call "emo" because I AM very emotional. So I've just showed you that the enviroment I was raised in had an effect on me, but the exact opposite of what you are trying to say.

From your second paragraph all I can gather is that you think that you've had hard times in your life and you just want someone to blame and someone to take pity. I apologise if I'm being not sensitive but there are people much worse of than you.
 
Sure, one's environment can affect how you are, if you allow it to. Children can be affected by their surroundings, yes, but not all behavior is learned from watching their parents. It is possible to get another idea in their head that is contrary to their model. Albeit, this could lead to rebellion once they are teenager, but who hasn't done that anyway? The cycle can be broken, if one wishes. The wisdom is always there for those who look for it. You don't need school to learn that.
 
So you're all in agreement that one's environment has NO bearing on what happens to a person? That their actions aren't a reflection of the disadvantages they've had or the abuse they've suffered, rather simply their naturally-born drive, motivation and personality?
Environment does play a role in the forming of one's personality. It is not, however, the only element. You're ignoring heredity and culture, both of which also play vital roles in the forming of one's personality.

If so I can completely rethink my image of myself and others whom have struggled through adversity. Those whom have conquered are truly strong individuals. Those who fell short... it's their own fault. They should have tried harder. And if they're unable to love they're truly a bitter, perverse soul with nothing but a dank pit where their heart should be.
Oprah Winfrey grew up in an abusive household in poverty. She is now one of the wealthiest people in the world, thanks to her determination and talent.

Sir Isaac Newton's father died three months before his birth. He was sent to live with his grandmother after his mother's remarriage. Basically treated as an orphan, Isaac did not have a happy childhood. His Prinicipia is widely recognized as the world's greatest scientific work.

My point? Your life is what you make of it. You can continue the cycle of abuse and poverty if you choose to do so, or you can attempt to make a better life for yourself as an adult and not be doomed to repeat the same mistakes your parents made in raising you.
 
I don't think anyone is saying that environment has no bearing, they're just saying that you yourself also have some control.

YOUR argument seems to be "I'm all messed up in the head because of my experiences, and there's nothing I can do to change or fix it, so basically I'm doomed and there's nothing to be done about it except complain on the internet." Is that what you really want to believe? That you're screwed up permanently and there's nothing you can ever do to help yourself? You certainly won't get far with that attitude.

Here's some advice other than "deal with it"- you're 18, do you still live with your parents? If you're still having to live in that environment, obviously there's not going to be anything you can do to help yourself right now. GET OUT. I'd also reccomend not talking to your parents for a year or two if at all possible, that's what I did when I first moved out on my own. It really does help a lot, just knowing that you're all by yourself, and there's no one else there, is so deeply comforting. Oh yeah also, live ALONE if at all possible. You need to feel independent.

If, even after you've moved on and don't have to deal with your parents' abuse anymore, you find yourself still living in the past, maybe you should try therapy.
 
>>>It has been proven that if you grow up seeing and/or being abused, you are more likely to repeat that pattern in your adult life. However, what do you define as a 'knowingly unfavorable position'?

Why would I ever abuse someone the way I was? ._.; I don't do that...

>>>Sure, one's environment can affect how you are, if you allow it to. Children can be affected by their surroundings, yes, but not all behavior is learned from watching their parents.

Right. -nod- Same here. Otherwise I'd be constantly cursing, smoking, and a SLUT who cheats on her husband. (not that I'm married yet... xD;)
 
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Yeah, it is hard. I don't think anyone denies that growing up badly makes things harder, but you really do have to just...get over it. I know how that sounds, but that's the only way you can really stick it to the people who made your life hell. Get over it and show them they don't control your life. Most people who are abusive love nothing more than seeing that your life is a mess. Abusive people love weakness and if you let them ruin your life it's just going to stay the same way, with you weak and them loving it and being able to control you.
 
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