• A reminder that Forum Moderator applications are currently still open! If you're interested in joining an active team of moderators for one of the biggest Pokémon forums on the internet, click here for info.
  • So which is the best date for the Arcade Game Night? Make your voices heard! Check out this post for more details.
  • Due to the recent changes with Twitter's API, it is no longer possible for Bulbagarden forum users to login via their Twitter account. If you signed up to Bulbagarden via Twitter and do not have another way to login, please contact us here with your Twitter username so that we can get you sorted.

Controversial opinions

Reader mode
I like the CONCEPT of Journeys and probably would have preferred it to what's being shown in the images above if it had been done right, but it's just so poorly executed that I ultimately wish we had gotten something like that instead. Like I'm sorry, I know that more people have warmed up to Journeys since it started but guh I'm just so bored :(
 
FinnishPokéFan92 said:
Ash's goal is meaningful too.
Click to expand...
What are you talking about they off screened about 70% of super class instead of I don't know building up his team. Also my controversial opinion is unless they were going to do something big for the Galar region I didn't care because I thought The Galar region was uninteresting.
 
I think making Malva turn against Lysandre during the final conflict came out of the left field and was not a good choice. Her game personality was much preferred and is what I would've wanted to see more from her anime counterpart.

PS. I think equally bad was her Adventures counterpart, who was crazy obsessive about Lysandre, would watch him as he did some shirtless Pokémon training (yes, people do stuff like that in Adventures sometimes), and would rather plummet to her death to save Lysandre rather than be saved by someone she hated, namely Diantha.
 
Honestly, I didn't even feel anything for Malva. She was introduced far too late and the only way to have known about her was by watching the Mega Evolution Specials. When I first watched the Flare Arc, I was confused as hell. Mairin felt like she just came out of nowhere, Alain's relationship with Lysandre didn't feel fully explained, I didn't understand why Chespie was connected to the Megalith in the first place...even with Steven, I was confused, since it felt like he just came out of nowhere. Granted, I didn't even know who the hell he was, but that's even worse!

Honestly, in my opinion, they should've just put the Mega Evolution specials in the actual series, or at the very least introduced Alain in the actual series way earlier. That way I would've been more emotionally invested in the Flare Arc, but as it was, the only reason I enjoyed it the first time around was because of the "grand finale" factor and how utterly awesome it felt. Alain's motivations were established abruptly after Mairin was introduced and had the Mega Evolution specials been a part of XY instead of separate, I would have felt more for him other than just..."oh, I feel bad for him". Especially since it's said during the Flare Arc that Alain really cares about Mairin but they only SHOW this in the Mega Evolution specials before that point and it just looks like "tell, not show" because of it. Why should I care about this relationship between two characters that was just only recently established with the bare minimum to go off of? Bloody hell, I didn't even know the Mega Evolution specials were even a thing until about two years later!!!

Honestly, I think THIS might be my biggest pet peeve about XY. I would forgive literally every other minor problem I have had they connected the Mega Evolution specials in the actual anime instead of making them..."specials". The Flare Arc was definitely top tier in terms of evil organization arcs(and arguably the best), but it was held back for me by the fact that I couldn't understand what the hell was going on.
 
By the end of XY, I was about done with the old formula. Old Pokemon is still good, don't get me wrong, but when SM announced Ash was going to school and there'd be no gyms I was like, sign me up right now. Journeys excited me with its premise as well because it widened the scope of possible stories considerably. Pokemon didn't need to be in a box of whatever region they were peddling anymore.

Pre-SM era Pokemon would change things with each new region, but fundamentally Ash's journey was always the same with similar story beats, similar highs and lows, themes, etc. I know people enjoyed the consistency of Pokemon and this feeling of Ash gradually getting better and closer to his goal, but for me it felt like a waste to do the same thing over and over for the best part of two decades. The anime never had to follow the games so closely, as SM and Journeys have proven.

I mean, it saddens me a fun character like Brock wasted away on screen as they had no plans for him, or an endearing character like Clement lost a lot of his relevancy after his own arc concluded halfway through XY, because the show had to focus so much on Ash's badge quest. The badge quest is an inherently solo thing. Sure, Ash's friends can cheer for him on the sidelines and help him train, but the moment he enters a gym battle nobody is relevant but him. This being the thrust of the narrative unfortunately drove his companions quite literally to the sidelines, unless they themselves had similar arcs i.e. May and Dawn. For the writers, it was a lot easier designing a narrative around collecting trinkets to qualify for a large tournament, because progress was clearly signposted with each badge or ribbon. It was not so easy to signpost progress for Misty, Brock, Iris or Cilan and they often fell to the wayside.

So I think ditching the badge quest and making Ash less central to the narrative was the smartest thing they could have done. It opened the door for other characters to have their moment without digressing from the main point. We see this now with Goh, who has gotten considerable attention so far.
 
AnimeJewel246 said:
Honestly, in my opinion, they should've just put the Mega Evolution specials in the actual series, or at the very least introduced Alain in the actual series way earlier. That way I would've been more emotionally invested in the Flare Arc, but as it was, the only reason I enjoyed it the first time around was because of the "grand finale" factor and how utterly awesome it felt. Alain's motivations were established abruptly after Mairin was introduced and had the Mega Evolution specials been a part of XY instead of separate, I would have felt more for him other than just..."oh, I feel bad for him". Especially since it's said during the Flare Arc that Alain really cares about Mairin but they only SHOW this in the Mega Evolution specials before that point and it just looks like "tell, not show" because of it. Why should I care about this relationship between two characters that was just only recently established with the bare minimum to go off of? Bloody hell, I didn't even know the Mega Evolution specials were even a thing until about two years later!!!

Honestly, I think THIS might be my biggest pet peeve about XY. I would forgive literally every other minor problem I have had they connected the Mega Evolution specials in the actual anime instead of making them..."specials". The Flare Arc was definitely top tier in terms of evil organization arcs(and arguably the best), but it was held back for me by the fact that I couldn't understand what the hell was going on.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I cannot figure out why they don't at least include those on the DVDs and the official steam while XY is up.
*
Okay, so the formula. I'll mention I Liked that art back there because I think the artist did a great job at emulating the old art style, but I have no particular interest in returning to the badge quest formula--I was sick of it by DP and nothing that has happened since has given me reason to change my mind on that issue. I wish Ash had won a traditional league before they retired them but for myself that's a reason he should have won earlier rather than a reason to do another Badge Quest.
Honestly I think a lot of what I see as the show's major failings (and what contributes to it's bad reputation in the general fandom) are directly connected to the twenty year long affair with the badge quest plot.
 
FluffleFi said:
Standard gym-quest or not, I still would've liked for Gloria to be part of the main cast. I can maybe understand why Selene wasn't in Alola since the main cast was already pretty sizable, but what's Journey's excuse?
Click to expand...
All female protagonist from games only doing contests in anime, not just May and Dawn but Serena doing similar thing even kris/marina is coordinator in anime, Lyra is the only exception who appeared in anime but doing something else,
while all other pokegirls who isn't protagonist in games had different goal in anime, probably because writers don't know what else to do with pokegirls who doing same thing as Ash in games while they had some really good idea with others from their game counterpart.

Would've been great if Gloria become Ash's rival in JN.
 
Last edited:
It's still kind of strange whenever I see people complaining about the old formula, mainly because I don't recall people being annoyed at Ash doing another badge quest in any of the previous series. People were annoyed over how he seemingly wasn't allowed to win a League, but I don't recall a lot of people being annoyed at Ash doing another Gym badge quest with each series. Maybe I just don't remember when I never had a problem with that myself. While there were similar story beats, it didn't feel like they were all the same story or that if you saw one Gym badge quest you've seen them all. I could have been just more used to it, but I thought that with different teams, opponents and rivals helped to make them all pretty distinct. That didn't automatically make each and every badge quest great, but I just never really had a problem with it, especially when the main series mostly relies on Gyms too. As refreshing as the Island Challenge was, that was basically the Alolan version of Gyms too.

With that being said, I think I'd be more okay with the writers leaving the Gym badge quest behind if what we got in its place was more worthwhile. SM technically still had the Island Challenge, even if it was much more of an afterthought, so it still kind of adapted a key element of the Sun/Moon games. The PWC is not a good replacement for the Galar Gym quest. In theory, it should be since it's on a bigger scale and should be a huge deal, but it's just boring. Ash battling a bunch of one-shot trainers both on and off-screen instead of facing off against more formidable opponents like Bea and Raihan in Galar is such a huge downgrade. As good as Ash vs. Bea was, all I kept thinking was why they didn't bother with the Galar Gym Challenge if even the fourth Gym Leader is that powerful. If the PWC was handled better and we got to a see more of Galar and/or Galar characters, I'd probably be more into it. As it is, it's just boring and much less impressive than it should be.

I like Journeys and I do think that some of the complaints towards it can get harsh, but I really wish that we could see more of Galar and its characters. I wouldn't mind the world traveling aspect if it didn't feel like they avoided all of the new Pokemon in favor of older ones. To be fair, it isn't like they are making use of any other locations. I still remember thinking that I would have assumed that the Suicune episode took place in a random forest in Kanto if they didn't label it as Johto since there was nothing to really show that it was in a different region. It just kind of stings that Galar is the newest region with new Pokemon and characters that don't really get much, if any, attention while every other region has gotten a chance to shine in the anime.
 
Last edited:
Even when SM had the Island Challenge as something of an afterthought, the series at least made up for that by actually taking place in Alola, meaning we got to see Gen 7 Pokemon front and center a lot more frequently. It also had much stronger dynamics between the MC Pokemon themselves, as we frequently saw them playing around and having fun. Heck, even the ride Pokemon Lusamine lent the kids got in on the fun. If Journeys had more of that it'd be a lot better even if it still kept the PWC underfocused. I'm hoping that with Ash having finally reached the top 99 plus Project Mew and Dawn's return will help give the show more material to experiment with.
 
A
Hidden Mew said:
It's still kind of strange whenever I see people complaining about the old formula, mainly because I don't recall people being annoyed at Ash doing another badge quest in any of the previous series. People were annoyed over how he seemingly wasn't allowed to win a League, but I don't recall a lot of people being annoyed at Ash doing another Gym badge quest with each series. Maybe I just don't remember when I never had a problem with that myself. While there were similar story beats, it didn't feel like they were all the same story or that if you saw one Gym badge quest you've seen them all. I could have been just more used to it, but I thought that with different teams, opponents and rivals helped to make them all pretty distinct. That didn't automatically make each and every badge quest great, but I just never really had a problem with it, especially when the main series mostly relies on Gyms too. As refreshing as the Island Challenge was, that was basically the Alolan version of Gyms too.

With that being said, I think I'd be more okay with the writers leaving the Gym badge quest behind if what we got in its place was more worthwhile. SM technically still had the Island Challenge, even if it was much more of an afterthought, so it still kind of adapted a key element of the Sun/Moon games. The PWC is not a good replacement for the Galar Gym quest. In theory, it should be since it's on a bigger scale and should be a huge deal, but it's just boring. Ash battling a bunch of one-shot trainers both on and off-screen instead of facing off against more formidable opponents like Bea and Raihan in Galar is such a huge downgrade. As good as Ash vs. Bea was, all I kept thinking was why they didn't bother with the Galar Gym Challenge if even the fourth Gym Leader is that powerful. If the PWC was handled better and we got to a see more of Galar and/or Galar characters, I'd probably be more into it. As it is, it's just boring and much less impressive than it should be.

I like Journeys and I do think that some of the complaints towards it can get harsh, but I really wish that we could see more of Galar and its characters. I wouldn't mind the world traveling aspect if it didn't feel like they avoided all of the new Pokemon in favor of older ones. To be fair, it isn't like they are making use of any other locations. I still remember thinking that I would have assumed that the Suicune episode took place in a random forest in Kanto if they didn't label it as Johto since there was nothing to really show that it was in a different region. It just kind of stings that Galar is the newest region with new Pokemon and characters that don't really get much, if any, attention while every other region has gotten a chance to shine in the anime.
Click to expand...
Ash can't go back and do gym challenge again because he is now a regional champion, doing gym challenge again will be downgrade for his character, can you imagine champions like Steven or Cynthia challenging gyms? PWC is the only way Ash character can grow even further.

I think main problem with lack of great battles is because of episodic nature of JN, we had 2 really great 2vs2 battles Ash Vs Visqueze and Bea (rematch) which can be equal to gym challenge (they're inside gym as well) but Ash Vs Korrina and Iris was kind of underwhelming because they're returning character who need lots of attention outside battle as well and problem is they only return for one episode, while Visqueze and Bea don't need any special attention outside battle.

Writers has to get rid off this episode nature and I think Dawn return for 2 episodes is the start for that change.
 
Pokemonfan5 said:
Ash can't go back and do gym challenge again because he is now a regional champion, doing gym challenge again will be downgrade for his character, can you imagine champions like Steven or Cynthia challenging gyms? PWC is the only way Ash character can grow even further.
Click to expand...
Actually, no. There is an easy excuse for that. Alola's bar for a league is lower than the usual (they don’t have a 6 Pokémon requirement as well). While that doesn’t invalidate Ash's victory there, it means that Galar, where the Gym challenge is even stricter, is a new territory for Ash, with some trainers like Raihan of such a caliber that they could be champions of other regions if they wanted to. Not to mention Galar being restrictive on who challenges the gyms via sponsorships. There is plenty of room for Ash to grow in the Galar gym challenge anyways, and it’s bound to be more of a spectacle than PWC is, and the goal is virtually the same: reach Leon and defeat him. I don’t see why there is anything inherently wrong with Galar gyms as a goal for Ash. Galar's gym leaders are clearly shown to be more powerful and competitive than those of other regions: see Bea progressing to the top 100 trainers.
 
AnimeJewel246 said:
Honestly, in my opinion, they should've just put the Mega Evolution specials in the actual series, or at the very least introduced Alain in the actual series way earlier. That way I would've been more emotionally invested in the Flare Arc, but as it was, the only reason I enjoyed it the first time around was because of the "grand finale" factor and how utterly awesome it felt. Alain's motivations were established abruptly after Mairin was introduced and had the Mega Evolution specials been a part of XY instead of separate, I would have felt more for him other than just..."oh, I feel bad for him". Especially since it's said during the Flare Arc that Alain really cares about Mairin but they only SHOW this in the Mega Evolution specials before that point and it just looks like "tell, not show" because of it. Why should I care about this relationship between two characters that was just only recently established with the bare minimum to go off of? Bloody hell, I didn't even know the Mega Evolution specials were even a thing until about two years later!!!
Click to expand...
They still existed, even if you didn't know about them. I thought it was a good choice to have them as special so they wouldn't affect the main series until it was the right time.
 
FinnishPokéFan92 said:
They still existed, even if you didn't know about them. I thought it was a good choice to have them as special so they wouldn't affect the main series until it was the right time.
Click to expand...
The issue is that those specials weren't dubbed or broadcast in some countries, even when they got the XYZ anime.
 
Unireon said:
The issue is that those specials weren't dubbed or broadcast in some countries, even when they got the XYZ anime.
Click to expand...
It's still shocking how some countries didn't bother dubbing them and the fact they still aren't available on home media either. You kinda need them to understand Alain, Mairin, Steven Stone and even Lysandre more because otherwise without them they're just a bunch of random characters who pop out of nowhere (the first three especially) and become important for whatever reason.

I was lucky enough to have seen all four of them when CITV aired them, other countries weren't.
 
Pokemonfan5 said:
Ash can't go back and do gym challenge again because he is now a regional champion, doing gym challenge again will be downgrade for his character, can you imagine champions like Steven or Cynthia challenging gyms? PWC is the only way Ash character can grow even further.
Click to expand...
I really disagree. Ash is the first Alola League Champion, but that doesn't make him a regional champion on the same level as Champions like Steven and Cynthia. Not only because of how I think that the Alola League was set on easy mode, but the anime hasn't really treated Ash like he is on that level. Ash being the Alola League Champion hasn't been brought up in Journeys at all yet, not even when he went to Alola or battled against Iris who is for some reason now the Unova Champion, and it wasn't the reason why he decided to do the PWC either. Out of universe, winning the Alola League is probably one reason why they went with the PWC. I could believe that the writers didn't want to potentially undermine the Alola League victory by having Ash do another badge quest journey right afterwards, but that was never brought up as a reason in-universe. Ash just wanted to battle Leon and the PWC is seemingly the fastest way to get a chance to battle him, so that was it.

I also don't like this notion that Gyms would be a downgrade for Ash. It would be extremely easy for them to establish the Galar Gym Challenge as something more difficult than a usual Gym badge quest. It is much more competitive in the games than other Gym challenges, requiring trainers to get a sponsorship in order to take part in and at least some of the Gym Leaders are strong enough to become Champions in different regions like Raihan. It feels especially odd to say that Gyms would be a downgrade when the vast majority of Ash's matches in the PWC have been against one-shot characters. He has faced off against more powerful opponents, usually when one of his matches is deemed worthy enough to be the actual focus of an episode instead of an afterthought or being a setup for the actual episode's plot, but when most of his matches take up less that five minutes of screentime, if even that, it's hard for me to see Ash as being too good for Gym battles because he defeated a random trainer's Elekid.
Pokemonfan5 said:
I think main problem with lack of great battles is because of episodic nature of JN, we had 2 really great 2vs2 battles Ash Vs Visqueze and Bea (rematch) which can be equal to gym challenge (they're inside gym as well) but Ash Vs Korrina and Iris was kind of underwhelming because they're returning character who need lots of attention outside battle as well and problem is they only return for one episode, while Visqueze and Bea don't need any special attention outside battle.

Writers has to get rid off this episode nature and I think Dawn return for 2 episodes is the start for that change.
Click to expand...
I wasn't really impressed with Ash vs. Visqueze to be honest. It wasn't bad by any means, but the battle didn't do much for me. I think I was just really annoyed that they started off the PWC with a stand-in for Lt. Surge and Ash battling against more Kanto Pokemon when they have new Pokemon and characters that they could have used instead. I haven't seen the Bea rematch or Ash vs. Iris yet, so I can't comment on those battles. I think that Ash vs. Korrina was really good though. If that was more standard for PWC matches instead of the first good PWC battle in my book, I'd probably be much more into this goal. I didn't think that they took that much time with Korrina out of the battle either.

I agree that the episodic nature of Journeys doesn't really help with the PWC, but I don't think that's the only problem either. A lot of my problems with the PWC come down to its very structure. In order to be a more compelling goal, I think that they needed to rework it from the ground up. For a worldwide tournament to determine who can potentially become the new top trainer in the world, it really doesn't come off as particularly challenging or difficult when most of Ash's opponents have been one-shot trainers who have been defeated in one-on-one battles. That's why the PWC does feel like a downgrade from Gym badge quests in a lot of ways. Most of Ash's previous Gym badge journeys were shown to be more difficult than the PWC has been thus far. Like I said before, it really shouldn't feel like a step down when it's a more large scale tournament with a bigger prize at the end, but with the quality of most of the matches and a large chuck of matches being done off-screen, it's hard for me to really see the PWC as the next step for Ash's goal or the only way for him to develop when the show certainly doesn't treat it as such. It's not quite as much of an afterthought as the Island Challenge was for SM, if only because each episode reminds the audience of both Ash and Goh's goals, but it's still too much of an afterthought for me to really see it as a big deal.
 
Hidden Mew said:
I really disagree. Ash is the first Alola League Champion, but that doesn't make him a regional champion on the same level as Champions like Steven and Cynthia. Not only because of how I think that the Alola League was set on easy mode, but the anime hasn't really treated Ash like he is on that level. Ash being the Alola League Champion hasn't been brought up in Journeys at all yet, not even when he went to Alola or battled against Iris who is for some reason now the Unova Champion, and it wasn't the reason why he decided to do the PWC either. Out of universe, winning the Alola League is probably one reason why they went with the PWC. I could believe that the writers didn't want to potentially undermine the Alola League victory by having Ash do another badge quest journey right afterwards, but that was never brought up as a reason in-universe. Ash just wanted to battle Leon and the PWC is seemingly the fastest way to get a chance to battle him, so that was it.

I also don't like this notion that Gyms would be a downgrade for Ash. It would be extremely easy for them to establish the Galar Gym Challenge as something more difficult than a usual Gym badge quest. It is much more competitive in the games than other Gym challenges, requiring trainers to get a sponsorship in order to take part in and at least some of the Gym Leaders are strong enough to become Champions in different regions like Raihan. It feels especially odd to say that Gyms would be a downgrade when the vast majority of Ash's matches in the PWC have been against one-shot characters. He has faced off against more powerful opponents, usually when one of his matches is deemed worthy enough to be the actual focus of an episode instead of an afterthought or being a setup for the actual episode's plot, but when most of his matches take up less that five minutes of screentime, if even that, it's hard for me to see Ash as being too good for Gym battles because he defeated a random trainer's Elekid.

I wasn't really impressed with Ash vs. Visqueze to be honest. It wasn't bad by any means, but the battle didn't do much for me. I think I was just really annoyed that they started off the PWC with a stand-in for Lt. Surge and Ash battling against more Kanto Pokemon when they have new Pokemon and characters that they could have used instead. I haven't seen the Bea rematch or Ash vs. Iris yet, so I can't comment on those battles. I think that Ash vs. Korrina was really good though. If that was more standard for PWC matches instead of the first good PWC battle in my book, I'd probably be much more into this goal. I didn't think that they took that much time with Korrina out of the battle either.

I agree that the episodic nature of Journeys doesn't really help with the PWC, but I don't think that's the only problem either. A lot of my problems with the PWC come down to its very structure. In order to be a more compelling goal, I think that they needed to rework it from the ground up. For a worldwide tournament to determine who can potentially become the new top trainer in the world, it really doesn't come off as particularly challenging or difficult when most of Ash's opponents have been one-shot trainers who have been defeated in one-on-one battles. That's why the PWC does feel like a downgrade from Gym badge quests in a lot of ways. Most of Ash's previous Gym badge journeys were shown to be more difficult than the PWC has been thus far. Like I said before, it really shouldn't feel like a step down when it's a more large scale tournament with a bigger prize at the end, but with the quality of most of the matches and a large chuck of matches being done off-screen, it's hard for me to really see the PWC as the next step for Ash's goal or the only way for him to develop when the show certainly doesn't treat it as such. It's not quite as much of an afterthought as the Island Challenge was for SM, if only because each episode reminds the audience of both Ash and Goh's goals, but it's still too much of an afterthought for me to really see it as a big deal.
Click to expand...
Whether we agree or disagree it doesn't change the FACT that Ash is now Regional Champion tier trainer, there are some strong opponents Ash has defeated in Alola league like Guzma who is much stronger than some average Kalos league trainer illima or Gladion more powerful than even Hoenn league winner Tyson (compared to Tyson he literally face way more experience Ash with far more powerful Pokemons especially Pikachu)

Also lastly Ash beat Kukui who is also like in game Champion than Tapu Koko Koko who is BEYOND champion challenge in both games and anime, Tapu Koko is at least champion ace level opponent and than he also had Guardian of Alola one of the most powerful z move in existence, this is more than enough proof that Ash is same tier as Steven or Cynthia, seriously Ash defeated w guardian deity and guardian of Alola which use to save entire region in crisis is far more powerful than anything he defeated in his life

Ash being regional champion is the main reason he defeated another Regional Champion Iris otherwise he can't hold a candle against E4 at this point of any series, Iris probably same level as Kukui without Tapu Koko, him being regional champion is the reason Ash is now taking on world challenge, except BW every series Ash character has grown and get stronger so becoming world champion is the only way writers can further improve Ash character, if he challenge another league and for some reason lost in league or against any E4 or Champion than it would be downgrade like Unova league, he has to win the regional championship but that would be like Hoenn League no Improvement or downgrade, that's the reason he can't go and take gym challenge.

Ash Vs Visqueze had great strategy and animation, what else to hate about? That probably best animated Ash's battle in JN.

Your complaint about PWC is directly related to episodic nature of JN, Ash Vs Iris and Korrina had many OHKO because of this problem, they don't have much time to allocate in battle as those characters need screentime outside battle, while look at Farfetch'd/Sirfetch'd Vs Gurdurr and Gallade, they're 1vs1 battle but very long instead of OHKO, as those 2 trainers don't need any other screentime beside battle and it was only 1vs1, Ash can challenge Galar gym leaders like he doing with Bea in PWC.

Like you guys I also don't like how PWC is being handled but they can't go back, we can only hope for the improvement which probably happening as Dawn return is two parter not single Episode.
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
Back
Top Bottom