• Hey Trainers! Be sure to check out Corsola Beach, our newest section on the forums, in partnership with our friends at Corsola Cove! At the Beach, you can discuss the competitive side of the games, post your favorite Pokemon memes, and connect with other Pokemon creators!
  • Due to the recent changes with Twitter's API, it is no longer possible for Bulbagarden forum users to login via their Twitter account. If you signed up to Bulbagarden via Twitter and do not have another way to login, please contact us here with your Twitter username so that we can get you sorted.

Controversial opinions

Oshawott is nothing compared to Grookey. He's better even. Oshawott was a complete gultton and his habit of trying to eat everyone's food was problematic, especially when it came to Pignite. Oshawott was a victim of being the gag Pokemon the writers didn't take seriously and just used for jokes rather than developing him into a more competent fighter...or even evolving. Grookey just consistently causes problems with his out of control behavior, constantly running around hitting things. We've had the Falinks incident that Goh threw Ash under the bus for. We had Ash getting possessed thanks to Grookey. Then we had today's episode. Grookey is that out of control child that never gets reprimanded and he's far worse than Oshawott ever was.
 
Oshawott is nothing compared to Grookey. He's better even. Oshawott was a complete gultton and his habit of trying to eat everyone's food was problematic, especially when it came to Pignite. Oshawott was a victim of being the gag Pokemon the writers didn't take seriously and just used for jokes rather than developing him into a more competent fighter...or even evolving. Grookey just consistently causes problems with his out of control behavior, constantly running around hitting things. We've had the Falinks incident that Goh threw Ash under the bus for. We had Ash getting possessed thanks to Grookey. Then we had today's episode. Grookey is that out of control child that never gets reprimanded and he's far worse than Oshawott ever was.
I'd say comparing Oshawott to Grookey is insulting. At least Oshawott's personality outside of his gluttony habit gimmick was fun and Oshawott even had episodes to develop his personality. Grookey has zero redeeming qualities outside of cuteness (which I personally don't count) and many more issues.
 
Grookey has zero redeeming qualities outside of cuteness (which I personally don't count) and many more issues.
It is not even that cute, at least to me. I would say somewhat ugly instead.

What it truly matters is the characterization....
And there is nothing appealing in a Karma Houdini that only exists to cause mayhem.

Its gag was never funny or endearing.
 
It pretty much was a deus ex machina. If it wasn't for Axew to suddenly learn Outrage out of nowhere, Iris would have lost and Luke would have gone on to the finals of that tournament, which would have made much more sense. The tournament wasn't really building up to Ash vs. Iris and even if it was, Axew learning an overpowered move out of nowhere was the worst way to justify Iris getting to the finals. Like everything in Iris' storyline, it felt like an undeserved accomplished handed to her. She should have lost and realized that Axew needed more training in order to get stronger.

I'm not sure why they didn't use the move again in BW, especially when they had no problem giving Axew Giga Impact, but it really made the first Club Battle tournament really bad in my opinion. I don't think it was good before that match, especially when none of the battles were particularly good from what I remember, but it was one of the more frustrating moments in BW for me.
I'll admit that I would have personally let Axew learning a new move and beating Luke's Golurk slide if it had been a one-time thing, and Axew had actually trained more with Outrage afterwards, but not only did we get another OP Deus Ex Machina move later in Giga Impact, but Axew never used either of his DEM moves again during the rest of BW, effectively meaning those incredibly powerful moves served no purpose besides saving Axew's tail from certain defeat, making Axew learning them feel shallow on top of unbelievable with how weak he otherwise was. Sure, Outrage was used again in Journeys, but that still really doesn't change the fact that during the saga that Axew was a main character, his development was poorly handled.
 
So instead of taking reasonability for his own Pokémon actions he puts all the blame on Ash with out a care in the world. Why is it that the more I hear of Journeys the more i'm glad I stopped after the first ep.
Because at the end of the day, Goh is still an inexperienced rookie trainer who thinks he knows a lot, but in actuality knows very little about the Pokemon world. Plus, that episode featuring Falinks was poorly written on top of it if you ask me.
 
This might seen really petty, I know, but I still hold a grudge against Goh for that Falinks ep.

Grookey was the one who caused the whole issue, Goh knew it, but instead of telling the monkey off, he willingly and consciously threw Ash under the bus for it and neither Goh nor Grookey suffered any sort of consequences. All because he's not only an extremely incompetent trainer, he can't even admit his own Pokémon was at fault.

Again, I'm aware it may not be that deep and I might just be petty for this, but that stung a lot more than it should've.
 
This might seen really petty, I know, but I still hold a grudge against Goh for that Falinks ep.

Grookey was the one who caused the whole issue, Goh knew it, but instead of telling the monkey off, he willingly and consciously threw Ash under the bus for it and neither Goh nor Grookey suffered any sort of consequences. All because he's not only an extremely incompetent trainer, he can't even admit his own Pokémon was at fault.

Again, I'm aware it may not be that deep and I might just be petty for this, but that stung a lot more than it should've.
I don't think its petty I think it makes sense to be mad at Grookey for doing something dumb to someone else and not paying for it and at Goh for not only covering for it but putting all the blame on Ash even though he did nothing wrong.
 
Aside from Pidgeot or temporary members like Raticate, Beedrill, and Seaking, Ashs Goodra is the most useless Pokemon he owned.
Get dumped for a majority of the series to come back and do absolutely nothing but hinder Ash’s performance. If Ash brings a reserve instead of Goodra he wins Kalos. Goodra is more useless than Noivern because Noivern is just a baby plus the fandom treats Goodra like it’s one of Ashs strongest just because it has the pseudo label. Same with Ash-Greninja.
 
Aside from Pidgeot or temporary members like Raticate, Beedrill, and Seaking, Ashs Goodra is the most useless Pokemon he owned.
Get dumped for a majority of the series to come back and do absolutely nothing but hinder Ash’s performance. If Ash brings a reserve instead of Goodra he wins Kalos. Goodra is more useless than Noivern because Noivern is just a baby plus the fandom treats Goodra like it’s one of Ashs strongest just because it has the pseudo label. Same with Ash-Greninja.
While I do kinda agree with Goodra. I think your overhating Ash-Greninja a bit too much.
 
Aside from Pidgeot or temporary members like Raticate, Beedrill, and Seaking, Ashs Goodra is the most useless Pokemon he owned.
Get dumped for a majority of the series to come back and do absolutely nothing but hinder Ash’s performance. If Ash brings a reserve instead of Goodra he wins Kalos. Goodra is more useless than Noivern because Noivern is just a baby plus the fandom treats Goodra like it’s one of Ashs strongest just because it has the pseudo label. Same with Ash-Greninja.
I'm very inclined to agree with your perspective on Goodra, albeit I disagree completely with the highlighted part.

Ash wouldn't have won Kalos even if Goodra had been swapped for one of his better/more capable reserves simply due an extremley simple reason: Ash wasn't supossed to win in Kalos.

Like, there's this one gigantic hang-up that I have with this fandom in particular, which is the notion that Ash doesn't wins squarely and exclusively because he doesn't picks his best Pokémon for the League battles. And I agree to a certain point: it's not only more believable in-universe, but also more satisfatory to see him defeat his opponents with his "Best of the Best" choices.

But what people just don't seem to grasp is that it's not an in-universe question whether or not Ash wins: it's an out-of-universe thing. Ash won't win, regardless of his choice of Pokémon, if the higher ups don't want him to. Seriously, he can have an All-Star team made of the cream of the crop of his roster or a team of his worst Pokémon ever: he won't win if he's not allowed to.

And I understand your frustration with the Kalos League defeat, I do. But blaming Goodra or Greninja, or anyone else is fated to failure because it's not an in-universe thing, it's something that the higher ups decided on.
 
Yeah they had to pull out a lot of deus ex machina to justify Ash losing a lot of his leagues

In Kanto, he had to stop Team Rocket

In Sinnoh, some rando out of nowhere busts out Legendaries

XY had Charizard shilling, and the writers refusal to let Charizard look bad in any capacity
 
We’re not to assume that the writing and executive teams sit down and run a fair in-depth analysis of Ash’s teambuilding strats and compare it to his opponents’ before making the decision to have him lose fair and square. It’s rigged from the start if they think it’s the right call.
If the execs think Rowlet beating Ho-oh is the best marketing decision, it’s gonna happen. If on some lovecraftian logic they figure that having Mega Lucario get knocked out of the PWC by a Skitty is the way to go, you bet your ass they’re capitalising on it.
 
I think there's a seriously concerning dissonance between the show runners and audience when it comes to JN and Grookey is the main example of it. I'm sure what the writers want us to think it's a charming funny rascal whos hijinks were supposed to find endearing but in reality most people find it a annoying waste of space who's out of control antics go unreprimanded (which reflect poorly on its trainer) and still (S T I L L) hasn't a single move to its name.

I would just like to know what the plan is here. I'm expecting another rushed unsatisfying unearned evolution eventually but other than that they've done actually nothing with this Pokémon it's just baffling how horribly planned and executed this thing has been from start to the present.

The Galar starters in general I'd say have been as a collective the worst handled starters I've seen in a saga. And I didnt think you could get much worse than BW or Johto
 
Last edited:
I have a new controversial opinion, which is that I don’t think either Pikachu fake evolves or TRio fake split up episodes are a waste.

Both explore fundamental questions: ‘Who would Pikachu be if he wasn’t a Pikachu anymore?’ and ‘Who would Musashi, Kojiro and Nyasu be if they weren’t the TRio?’ I think the answers to these questions are so key to both sets of characters that asking them again every 3-5 years does not make meaningless filler but in fact a useful reconfirmation of their core identities. This is obviously crucial for new audiences, but important even for long-time viewers.

Unfortunately I think Pikachu’s episodes haven’t always been so well done, but the vast majority of the TRio’s episodes on this theme have framed the question slightly differently so that new and valuable information comes out each time.
 
The Galar starters in general I'd say have been as a collective the worst handled starters I've seen in a saga. And I didnt think you could get much worse than BW or Johto
Give the BW and Johto starters this they at least had some good battles to their name and/or good character moments. The Galar starters don't even have that.
 
Give the BW and Johto starters this they at least had some good battles to their name and/or good character moments. The Galar starters don't even have that.
Or when one hogged the spotlight they were at least doing things, battling, being characters, had arcs. Cinderace vanished to off screen land after a half hearted attempt to have a relationship with Lucario (the fact they still flaunt that in the OP is a joke), Grookey is....Grookey as I've stated and Intelion is by far the worst progression I've seen a starter take to reach its final form which pissed me off because he was my favorite. They had such a good amount of dramatic potential with its evolution into Drizzle only for it to disappear in a cave, no focus or battles or anything then it comes back to get a cheap unearned evolution to one of the worst COTDs ever.

I can't say giving these Pokémon to Ash would've been better considering the laundry list of problems his Pokémon have had but just the entire structure of JN worked against all of them now all I can do is wait for the board to be swept clean and get another shot when Gen 9 comes around
 
Like, there's this one gigantic hang-up that I have with this fandom in particular, which is the notion that Ash doesn't wins squarely and exclusively because he doesn't picks his best Pokémon for the League battles. And I agree to a certain point: it's not only more believable in-universe, but also more satisfatory to see him defeat his opponents with his "Best of the Best" choices.

But what people just don't seem to grasp is that it's not an in-universe question whether or not Ash wins: it's an out-of-universe thing. Ash won't win, regardless of his choice of Pokémon, if the higher ups don't want him to. Seriously, he can have an All-Star team made of the cream of the crop of his roster or a team of his worst Pokémon ever: he won't win if he's not allowed to.
I think my issue with this is that it ultimately makes trying to discuss the narrative of any work of fiction rather pointless; every single thing that happens in this and every other work of fiction is because the writers (or writer) or someone above the writers decided to do it that way.

For a work intending to have any sort of drama I think you need to either hide the wizard behind the curtain as much as you can OR make the wizard symbolic of something important (at least to the writer), and I feel that one of this series' major flaws (that I don't see vocalized much but I think is one of those things people notice without consciously thinking about) is that it's really, really bad at doing either; a number of things are either bordering on deus ex machina or require sudden character changes for the sake of convenience, and we all know "the wizard" symbolism is just about trying to sell merch and not wanting to give up an iconic character so it's hard to give unrealistic or strange story decisions a pass on that basis.
Edit: To clarify I'm not really disagreeing with you here, just springboarding to note that the fact "well, nothing Ash does actually matters" is something of a sore point for me with the series.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom