Could Pokemon be unintentionally promoting homophobia?

[TheFatPanda]

Continued from a discussion I saw in another thread:

In episode 149 of Diamond and Pearl, Pikachu and Piplup being attracted to each other was seen as unnatural due to them being the same gender, it later lead to Brock to guess a person was causing the phenomenon artificiality.

Spoiler

And it's not just that, but when a Purrloin that Oshawott and Meowth fell in love with, believing he was female, was revealed to be a male in front of everyone by his trainer (freaking the other two male Pokémon out) Cilan's and Ash's words to this were literally calling said mistake "strange". It's a very controversial thing in the anime.

At least this is not the case for humans, but we won't ever get homosexual relationships in the Pokémon anime.

Just because Brock and Cilan think it's strange, that doesn't mean that a homosexual relationship can't happen in the anime. Their opinions could just be opinions.

It's not just Brock and Cilan who think it's strange, other characters do as well (seriously, re-watch the episodes):

In the Pikachu and Piplup one, Ash, Dawn and Brock all reacted with uneasiness towards Pikachu and Piplup being attracted to each other. And later they often referred to it as 'a big problem' and felt uncomfortable throughout it.

And Purrloin, Ash agreed with Cilan basically saying male Pokémon mistakenly loving another male was 'not right'.

Does anyone else find this worrisome? I know they where likely just trying to reference the in-game mechanic, but they could've worded it a bit better couldn't they?

Granted I can't really remember exactly what the Pikachu and Piplup episode consisted of, but the way it's treated by the Japanese version at least is rather discouraging. What was the English equivalent like?

Referencing the game or not, the writers should've been more careful. In the past the anime has never acknowledged homosexuality (predictable since we're still in a world where being gay is still not "kid-friendly"), but here they're more or less talking about it directly (without coming out with the technical terms) and what happens? Brock refers to it as "not being normal", Pikachu and Piplup being attracted to eachother is "unusual" because they're both male.

While they may not be meaning to, aren't they basically teaching kids to be anti-gay down the line? Think about it: "two boys can't love eachother, I learned it on Pokemon".

 

[Beth Pavell]

Hmm. In this instance, yeah, I should say so. I would call it "socialisation" rather than "teaching", but that's a nit-pick

 

[Jimmy 3 People 0]

I came into this thread all set to dismiss you with a "back2tumblr," but... you have a point. While it could be these characters' opinions (and I'd actually like to see how the concept of homophobia would be dealt with in the anime), the wording they used is very unfortunate. Basically, it means "two males being attracted to each other is cosmically wrong," which is absolutely not true. And y'know, considering Brock is practically the G-rated version of Glenn Quagmire (though a lot less successful in his endeavors), it'd be believable that he's so obsessed with womanizing that he thinks guys who prefer other guys are wrong. Maybe if they said something about two male Pokemon not being able to breed (which is scientifically correct and not homophobic in any way) it would have gotten the point across better, but the way they worded it... yeesh.

And if they ever do ​explore the concept of homosexuality in the anime, please let it involve Zoey and Dawn. Please.

 

[TheFatPanda]

How the explain the Cilan instance then?

I knew this one coming.

Anime just does what parents don't react in a bad way and not be banned from undeveloped countries to make sell. You can not see homosexuality in any show related to children. So I wouldn't go that far to have an impression such as "promoting homophobia".

You know that logic said people use that they don't want gay/lesbian characters because it allegedly teaches kids to accept something that "isn't natural"?

What we're looking at here could basically be that, only in reverse.

 

[Beth Pavell]

I knew this one coming.

Anime just does what parents don't react in a bad way and not be banned from undeveloped countries to make sell. You can not see homosexuality in any show related to children. So I wouldn't go that far to have an impression such as "promoting homophobia".

I'm pretty much on board with that. It's the same reason the Game Corner disappeared from the games. In this case the same inoffensive appeal could have been maintained by not using the PikachuxPiplup (So to speak) story at all. As I recall in the dub the problem was implied to be that Pikachu and Piplup were doing literally nothing but hug each other, so make of that what you will

 

[Boss1708]

But... homosexuality actually isn't normal for animals... Normal = norm. And Homosexuality is not the norm. It is the exception.

Especially for animals (and pokemon are usually based on animals). If homosexuality was normal... There would be no species alive today. They can´t reproduce with the same gender. Today, people can, as we have technology. But you are aware that animals can´t, right?

Homosexuality is natural, as it occurs in nature. But it is not normal, as it is not a norm in nature, rather it´s an exception. It is more common in humans, because humans are guided by the mind process. You can love whoever you have feelings for. It is something that surpasses the animal instincts. While all other species are guided by instincts (at least most of them) and homosexuality isn´t normal for them.

So I don´t know why are people here surprised with the Pokemon Anime treating homosexuality as a non-common thing... cause it IS. But did anybody in the Anime say it is a bad thing? They didn´t, right?

 

[JustACollector]

This is all my opion : the anime is referring to breeding. You can not have two Pokemon of he gender/sex produce an offspring/egg. That part is simple biology.

If the directors of the anime come out and say their view points(I did not research if they have ) on homosexuality then people can raise a shit storm. Until then let it go. Do you really need to try to search for an idea that is not even there?

 

[TheFatPanda]

This is all my opion : the anime is referring to breeding. You can not have two Pokemon of he gender/sex produce an offspring/egg. That part is simple biology.

If the directors of the anime come out and say their view points(I did not research if they have ) on homosexuality then people can raise a shit storm. Until then let it go. Do you really need to try to search for an idea that is not even there?

Then that would have to mean all human characters care about when it comes to Pokemon romance is the offspring it produces and not, ya know, the simple beauty of the love itself.

Are you saying Ash and Dawn literally want their two Pokemon to reproduce someday, and that their sudden attraction to eachother will jeopardise that?

By the way, while it's true Pokemon are a lot like animals, it's still worth pointing out that they often show signs of being considerably more self aware than animals: they can understand humans without issue and they are capable of responding to the same things humans respond to. That tells me that Pokemon may not entirely be instinct-driven.

 

[Osprey]

Siiiiiigh... If I was playing one of the games and Attract worked on a 'mon of the same gender, I would say that it's strange too. You know why? Because that's just not how the move Attract is supposed to work. This isn't a subliminal homophobia message, it's following a set game mechanic. This is like getting upset that some character thinks that it's "strange" or "not right" when a Normal-type move hits a Ghost for super-effective damage.

 

[Enzap]

But... homosexuality actually isn't normal for animals... Normal = norm. And Homosexuality is not the norm. It is the exception.

Especially for animals (and pokemon are usually based on animals). If homosexuality was normal... There would be no species alive today. They can´t reproduce with the same gender. Today, people can, as we have technology. But you are aware that animals can´t, right?

Homosexuality is natural, as it occurs in nature. But it is not normal, as it is not a norm in nature, rather it´s an exception. It is more common in humans, because humans are guided by the mind process. You can love whoever you have feelings for. It is something that surpasses the animal instincts. While all other species are guided by instincts (at least most of them) and homosexuality isn´t normal for them.

So I don´t know why are people here surprised with the Pokemon Anime treating homosexuality as a non-common thing... cause it IS. But did anybody in the Anime say it is a bad thing? They didn´t, right?

There is a fair distinction between "normal" and "natural," but semantics aside, in nature, sexual acts can have basically three purposes.
1. Breeding 2. Establishing dominance 3. Pleasure

The first one happens in nearly all multi-cellular species, the second happens across sexes in many species, and the third happens in at least two types of animals outside of humans that we know of, dolphins and bonobos (a close relative to the chimpanzee). These animals are known as two of the most intelligent non-human beings, and you can't really say that they are 100% dependent on their instincts. Even dogs exhibit some semblance of emotion. We can assume that Pokemon in general are at least as intelligent as these animals, so if there's a correlation between intelligence and mating for pleasure, it would make sense that Pokemon would also exhibit those traits.

This is all my opion : the anime is referring to breeding. You can not have two Pokemon of he gender/sex produce an offspring/egg. That part is simple biology.

If the directors of the anime come out and say their view points(I did not research if they have ) on homosexuality then people can raise a shit storm. Until then let it go. Do you really need to try to search for an idea that is not even there?

The anime goes beyond what the games do in giving Pokemon distinct personalities and emotions, so I wouldn't say it's specifically referring to breeding.

Also the point of this thread isn't necessarily to just point fingers and bash the writers, it's a discussion about whether the implications are there or not. It's a perfectly valid question and there's no reason to just "let it go." Ideas can definitely be present even if not explicitly stated.

Siiiiiigh... If I was playing one of the games and Attract worked on a 'mon of the same gender, I would say that it's strange too. You know why? Because that's just not how the move Attract is supposed to work. This isn't a subliminal homophobia message, it's following a set game mechanic. This is like getting upset that some character thinks that it's "strange" or "not right" when a Normal-type move hits a Ghost for super-effective damage.

As I stated previously, the anime takes a lot of liberties, especially when it comes to Pokemon emotions and intelligence, but also for game mechanics. The anime has ignored resistances and immunities many times in the past, along with many other in-game mechanics, so the fact that they decided to strongly support this particular mechanic does say something.

In-game, sure, I'm willing to accept that it only works on Pokemon of the opposite sex because Pokemon seem to be much more driven by instinct in the games. But since the anime plays by different rules I would argue that that elements like that don't need to carry over.

 

[Enzap]

You seem to be stretching it more than necessary I think. Even if we accept Pokemons are more like dolphins and bonobos than other animal species... What percent of those species has homosexual relations? Not many. It would still be considered strange and uncommon. It is uncommon even for people although to a lesser extent for the previously stated reasons... I don't understand why some people are trying to make homosexuality the rule when it is the exception in nature.

A large portion of those species actually. For bonobos in particular, their societal structure is based primarily on sex (among other favors, but this one being a prominent source of studies) so homosexual activity is pretty common. I'm not saying it's the MOST common way in any species, but to brush it off as an "exception" is essentially invalidating it as an option.

 

[Beth Pavell]

You seem to be stretching it more than necessary I think. Even if we accept Pokemons are more like dolphins and bonobos than other animal species... What percent of those species has homosexual relations? Not many. It would still be considered strange and uncommon. It is uncommon even for people although to a lesser extent for the previously stated reasons... I don't understand why some people are trying to make homosexuality the rule when it is the exception in nature.

A large portion of those species actually. For bonobos in particular, their societal structure is based primarily on sex (among other favors, but this one being a prominent source of studies) so homosexual activity is pretty common. I'm not saying it's the MOST common way in any species, but to brush it off as an "exception" is essentially invalidating it as an option.

The research is controversial ... I'm not convinced that some studies are applicable to wild behaviours. As far as I recall, most examples of homosexual behaviour in animals occurs in animals of relatively high intelligence - social mammals and birds. It's probable that homosexual behaviour is more common than we realise.

I'm not sure how applicable any of this can be to a magic penguin and an electric rat.

I'm just going to clarify my earlier comment. I wouldn't call this "promoting" or "teaching" homophobia, since that implies a conscious intent on the part of the writers. "Socialisation" is a better term for it, since it can be argued that, in a small way, it's reinforcing the idea that that showing much affection to someone of the same gender is abnormal and a problem.

 

[Boss1708]

You seem to be stretching it more than necessary I think. Even if we accept Pokemons are more like dolphins and bonobos than other animal species... What percent of those species has homosexual relations? Not many. It would still be considered strange and uncommon. It is uncommon even for people although to a lesser extent for the previously stated reasons... I don't understand why some people are trying to make homosexuality the rule when it is the exception in nature.

A large portion of those species actually. For bonobos in particular, their societal structure is based primarily on sex (among other favors, but this one being a prominent source of studies) so homosexual activity is pretty common. I'm not saying it's the MOST common way in any species, but to brush it off as an "exception" is essentially invalidating it as an option.

Not to go off topic, but homosexuality is an exception from a natural point of view, as species are generally programmed to be attracted to the opposite gender for obvious reasons. So homosexuality is a program- error from this point of view. While bisexuality isn't. But I don't mean liking the same gender is unnatural, I mean not liking the opposite gender is. And I guess Bonobos liked both genders, so that would be "bi", not "homo".

But I would prefer if Pokemon keeps this stuff away from the franchise, not just homosexuality but sexuality in general. At least for the Pokemon.

 

[Enzap]

Not to go off topic, but homosexuality is an exception from a natural point of view, as species are generally programmed to be attracted to the opposite gender for obvious reasons. So homosexuality is a program- error from this point of view. While bisexuality isn't. But I don't mean liking the same gender is unnatural, I mean not liking the opposite gender is. And I guess Bonobos liked both genders, so that would be "bi", not "homo".

But I would prefer if Pokemon keeps this stuff away from the franchise, not just homosexuality but sexuality in general. At least for the Pokemon.

While it's true that from an evolutionary point of view, it's easy to claim pure homosexuality is disadvantageous, but there's recently been research and theories about why it continues to be pervasive in so many species. One theory is that homosexuality benefits populations because homosexual pairs of animals can "babysit" or "adopt" offspring from the community if the parent(s) die or can't raise all of the children. It also has the potential to act as a buffer against overpopulation. How these mechanisms appeared and are maintained is a mystery, but I don't think anybody has the knowledge (or the right) to call it an error.

And to tie it back in to the Pokemon, since the franchise never directly mentions any sort of sex, mating, or evolutionary fitness/natural selection, it makes even more sense for homosexuality or homoromanticism to exist in Pokemon since there would theoretically be no repercussions of it.

 

[ocelotlrama jaguar]

I find it a little strange that people are using the excuse of game mechanics to explain away the homophobic aspects in regards to the same anime where electric-type moves can hit ground-types. I think game mechanics shouldn't be the go-to argument when it comes to the anime considering the large amount of inconsistencies between the games and the TV show.

 

[JustACollector]

Pokemon vary in intelligence : mettapod thinks differently from alakazam. Both are Pokemon but one is cannoned to have a higher intelligence. So should we say that only some Pokemon know the difference between what is naturally programmed into their thought process and what they think they feel? We are giving Pokemon the aspect of animals because they closely resemble and act like animals.

I use the game mechanics as a go to because it's more structured. The anime is dumb, electric can hurt ground. Pikachu can use an electric attack on a flying Pokemon to electrify it with no ramifications. That makes little to no sense. You need to have a structure on which go by. Pokemon are not real, but the most structured thing i will base my argument on is the game.

As for is the anime giving off a homophobic ideas. I still say no. The anime is produced for those who are between 7-14. The younger age group does not fully understand what those concepts are in the adult world and when they pick up a Pokemon video game they will see that the move attract does not work on same sex Pokemon or that two Pokemon of the same sex can not produce and egg.

The society is having people look for a needle in a hay stack. This is a prime example of trying to find the needle in a hay stack.

(This was done on mobile please excuse and spelling errors)

 

[Lysson]

As for is the anime giving off a homophobic ideas. I still say no. The anime is produced for those who are between 7-14. The younger age group does not fully understand what those concepts are in the adult world and when they pick up a Pokemon video game they will see that the move attract does not work on same sex Pokemon or that two Pokemon of the same sex can not produce and egg.

No. Since I was really small I fully knew what homosexuality is.

Game mechanics don't really apply in the anime so two same sex Pokemon being attracted to each other in the anime should be fine. Besides some of the game mechanics are needed but in the anime it doesn't matter.

Pokemon vary in intelligence : mettapod thinks differently from alakazam. Both are Pokemon but one is cannoned to have a higher intelligence. So should we say that only some Pokemon know the difference between what is naturally programmed into their thought process and what they think they feel? We are giving Pokemon the aspect of animals because they closely resemble and act like animals.

Homosexuality is displayed in many animals, intelligence doesn't matter.

 

[godiego]

(very) brief preface: i'm gay.

i don't think you can use the argument that because the anime isn't completely consistent with the game, it's breeding mechanics must also have to be inconsistent and because of that it is unintentionally or otherwise intentionally promoting some heteronormative/homophobic views. this is actually faulty reasoning: that someone (or something) cannot be right because they were wrong or not right before (eg., the weatherperson cannot be right about it raining today because he was wrong about it raining yesterday). the better strategy is to actually attack the argument. playing off of the weatherperson example, he isn't right about it raining today because it is quite clearly a sunny and cloudless day, not because he was wrong yesterday.

ultimately it's a mixed bag. the views expressed aren't exactly the most non-heteronormative expressions possible nor are they a drastic divergence from the heteronormativity implied in the games (same sex Pokemon never want to "play" with each other). it's intentional in the sense that it is quite clear that they are not interested in changing from the games, but unintentional in the sense that while the writers, developers, and animators create this product, it is also possible that the anime doesn't wholly reflect their views (and thus is homophobic/heteronormative by extension of the games being homophobic/heteronormative).

i hope that makes sense.

 

[Jolty94]

But... homosexuality actually isn't normal for animals... Normal = norm. And Homosexuality is not the norm. It is the exception.

Especially for animals (and pokemon are usually based on animals). If homosexuality was normal... There would be no species alive today. They can´t reproduce with the same gender. Today, people can, as we have technology. But you are aware that animals can´t, right?

Homosexuality is natural, as it occurs in nature. But it is not normal, as it is not a norm in nature, rather it´s an exception. It is more common in humans, because humans are guided by the mind process. You can love whoever you have feelings for. It is something that surpasses the animal instincts. While all other species are guided by instincts (at least most of them) and homosexuality isn´t normal for them.

So I don´t know why are people here surprised with the Pokemon Anime treating homosexuality as a non-common thing... cause it IS. But did anybody in the Anime say it is a bad thing? They didn´t, right?

Nice way to put it. I personally don't think the anime should ever deal with or speak on homosexuality, being a gay man myself lol. It just creates unneeded questions and things that children shouldn't have to deal with yet in life (the target audience).

However, every species has exhibited homosexual nature, in the wild, even home pets, yet people say it is not natural. It may not be natural for reproduction, but it is for loving who you want to love I guess. Like saying, there are those that reproduce and those that don't; doesn't mean either one should be accepted and the other not.

 

[The Infidel]

Then when the anime uses a game mechanic to outright prove it beyond all doubt they are labelled homophobic.

This is a kids show, stop trying to complicate it with adult ideas and sociological theories and concepts.

I wanna see ash catch pokemon and battle them and go on his journey.

I don't want to see Pikachu come to concept with his homosexuality and worrying what the rest of the gang will think or watch Chespin decide that the gender norms do not apply to him and dedicating an episode to exploring whether he feels more comfortable using the label gender fluid or non gender binary instead.

If Pokemon said it was disgusting or wrong I'd have a problem. But they don't they just say it's not common / normal. And you know what it's not. We are about 1% of the population, but some people act like it's 50 50 (i wish lol)

And to be fair this is the same anime where James constantly dressed as a woman and where Pallet shippers did not have to work very hard for hints of feelings for each other between ash and Gary