Do you feel that Satoshi/Ash's Unova Pokémon have been toned down from his previous?

[Tepig in a BBQ]

Ash's Pokémon team in DP, always felt to me as one of his strongest team's he ever had. I saw Ash was able to train his Pokémon very well. In Best Wishes!, Ash's Pokémon don't really feel strong at all. Sure, he has one powerhouse (Krookodile) or more, but still.

Do you feel that he toned down his training methods like that? Was it done to make his character more "fresh" for the newcomers that watch the show for the first time so they would think Ash never traveled before? etc.

 

[Jukain]

Re: Do you feel that Satoshi/Ash's Unova Pokémon have been toned down from his previo

This has pretty much been observed throughout BW. However, for sheer number of evos, DP had a total of 8 for Ash, 7 of which were his Sinnoh crew. (2 for Starly, 2 for Turtwig, 2 for Chimchar, and one apiece for Gligar and Cynda) His BW crew has had a total of 7 so far. (2 for Pidove, 1 for Tepig, 2 for Sewaddle, 1 for Krokorock (though we saw it evolve from Sandile, he was not Ash's poke until it was a Krokorok), and 1 for Boldore) We have the same number of evos, they've just been distributed differently, and since the number of pokes is larger, it looks less by comparison. I will agree that they don't seem as impressive since we have not seen them do too many things that are impressive, and they didn't get too much characterization. One can argue their development, but most of it occurred offscreen. I don't agree with this philosophy since it makes it look like they gained abilities for no reason. Why they chose to do it is beyond my capacity to reason. I suppose it was part of trying to capture the essence of the original series since there were a bunch of captures there, and the pokes got little characterization there too, but at least we got to see the pokes gain their abilities there, so it was a little more justified. It's also possible they perceived that only the pokes matter and nothing else, so they could screw around all they want. One can also entertain that they just didn't want to put effort into it. Whatever the reason, I do not think it was a good idea at all. Many of us wanted to see a rotation, but I don't think they realized what that would mean.

 

[Supreme Leader Palpitoad]

Re: Do you feel that Satoshi/Ash's Unova Pokémon have been toned down from his previo

Pikachu and is as strong as usual. The rest...
Pignite and Krookodile is powerhouses. Palpitoad looks strong but has not participated in so many battles yet. Leavanny and Scraggy has proven that they are strong. Unfezant, Boldore and Oshawott is pretty weak. Snivy wins mostly because of Attract. The six strongest now is(i think)Pikachu, Pignite, Krookodile, Leavanny, Scraggy and the Toad. Oshawott was strong in the beginning but now hes only there to be comic and lose. Boldore and Unfezant are mostly used as fall guys. I dont think Boldore has won a battle since Junior Cup.

 

[CrackFox]

Re: Do you feel that Satoshi/Ash's Unova Pokémon have been toned down from his previo

I don't. Compared to DP, I think his Pokemon have been toned up...if that makes sense

In terms of personality, although don't get me wrong, I loved what DP did with Ash and Chimchar's relationship, but that aside, his Sinnoh Pokemon didn't have much personality and what they did have was mostly generic, headstrong, tough guy acts. Their was some comic relief in Gliscor and Gible but that was short lived and we didn't see it very often. BW, all three of Ash's starters have strong personalities and they seem more than tools of battle. I'm not saying Ash didn't seem to care about his DP Pokemon, of course it was obvious he did but his BW team seem like they aren't just Ash's tools, they have big characters and feel more intergrated with the show instead of it just being about them training with Ash to win battles.

 

[Supreme Leader Palpitoad]

Re: Do you feel that Satoshi/Ash's Unova Pokémon have been toned down from his previo

Buizel would beat Oshawott and Palpitoad.
Infernape would beat Pignite.
Staraptor would beat Unfezant.
Torterra is too slow for both Leavanny and Snivy so they would beat him.
Gliscor or Boldore? I dont know. The important is that Sinnoh team crush Unova team in power. But I still like the Unova team.

 

[Shinneth]

Re: Do you feel that Satoshi/Ash's Unova Pokémon have been toned down from his previo

Personally, I think "toned down" is an understatement in regards to comparing Ash's Unova Pokemon from those of the previous regions. Really, it feels like a mix of laziness, incompetence, and some very misguided desire from the staff to make Best Wishes as Neo-Kantoish as possible that resulted in Ash switching from actually training his Pokemon to just putting his faith in the Heart of the Cards. It's totally ass-backwards, too, in that for most cases, the blandest Pokemon of Ash's Unova team that get the smallest amount of screentime are the ones that get to evolve and have move sets that don't ENTIRELY suck. Meanwhile the majority of Ash's Pokemon that are entertaining or at least have the potential to be good characters - which are also the Pokemon that get more screentime than any of the others - remain unevolved or not fully evolved with the crappiest move sets I've ever seen. Snivy, for example, is one of maybe three main cast Unova Pokemon I genuinely like in Best Wishes, yet has not only not evolved (for no reason whatsoever, we don't even get any indication that she doesn't want to evolve so wtf?), her move set has remained unchanged since her debut. That there is just fucking sloppy.

General consensus among viewers seems to be that Ash and the others DO train their Pokemon, but it's all off-screen. And that's just a very shitty cop-out, especially since there are certain Pokemon that, judging by how they battle later in the series, really haven't been getting trained very much because they still very much suck at their job. The fact that we only got to see wins from Pikachu, Krookodile, and Pignite (oh and Scraggy for all of two seconds yeah whatever) in the entire Unova League should be very telling that there is some severe balancing issues across Ash's Unova team.

But it's not just their battling skills that have downgraded from their predecessors; like I said, many of the Unova Pokemon are lacking in character as well. The most notable feature about Unfezant is her gender. Ash's Leavanny is practically indistinguishable from Burgh's or any wild Leavanny we've seen so far. Boldore... is a rock. Oh, it tackled Ash over with affection one time? Yeah, so did a ton of other Pokemon in the past - and most of them had characteristics beyond that! Pignite's backstory has been done multiple times before (and done better), and beyond that, Pignite always felt pretty damn bland to me despite its increase in screentime. Oshawott came down with a tragic case of Piplup syndrome, though unlike with Piplup, Oshawott can't even be taken seriously as a battler. There was potential for it to be awesome early on, but... y'know, that's why I call it Piplup syndrome.

Literally the only Unova Pokemon of Ash's that I like are Snivy, Scraggy, and Krookodile. I already pointed out how tragically mishandled Snivy's been, Scraggy has fared a bit better (and a LOT better than fellow babby Axew) but I feel like it should be much further along in its development than it actually is (and part of that I blame on the staff still wanting Axew to have a babby friend since they refuse to develop that fucker too)... Krookodile's at least a genuine badass and the only case of a mid-battle evolution that I see was justified, though I still wonder why the hell they didn't just have Ash catch the damn thing in BW003 rather than tease it needlessly for no real reason (guess the retconned TP 2-parter might have something to do with that, but still... they put it off way too long).

You know, I would be lying if I said all of Ash's pre-BW Pokemon were handled perfectly, but I really feel like most of them were miles better than the current roster. Even though Torterra was dead weight the moment Turtwig evolved to Grotle, it still shined plenty of times as a Turtwig and had a relatively strong personality. Buizel was a jobber for a long time, but managed to redeem itself later on and always had a distinct personality. Staraptor was a total badass, easily one of Ash's best Flying-types he's ever had, and it had its character moments here and there. And I don't think I need to explain how much Infernape, Gliscor, Gible, and even Aipom (before her tragic evolution to Ambipom and exit from the series) were much better handled Pokemon as battlers and characters compared to the Unova roster today.

Really, the biggest mystery is how the staff could possibly consider the Unova Pokemon a logical progression from the Pokemon they've written before Best Wishes. They're just... not. Not at all.

 

[PockyAddict]

Re: Do you feel that Satoshi/Ash's Unova Pokémon have been toned down from his previo

shinneth said the best what i feel about this. The unova pokemon team has been toned down a lot, Ash had powerhouses in the previous gens and for the unova series they just are downgrade pokemon.

and to think i complained about sinnoh being long a few months ago, but at least i saw some progression there.

 

[Cybersai]

Re: Do you feel that Satoshi/Ash's Unova Pokémon have been toned down from his previo

Its not toned down, its just largely forgettable.

Even the Johto team had some memorable quirks about them, almost the entire Unova team aside from about 3-4 are completely forgettable.

 

[Supreme Leader Palpitoad]

Re: Do you feel that Satoshi/Ash's Unova Pokémon have been toned down from his previo

Its not toned down, its just largely forgettable.

Even the Johto team had some memorable quirks about them, almost the entire Unova team aside from about 3-4 are completely forgettable.

Totodile dancing is memorable.

 

[Sakuraa]

Re: Do you feel that Satoshi/Ash's Unova Pokémon have been toned down from his previo

I definitely don’t think Ash’s Unova team compares to any of his past teams for several reasons.

1. Screen time- The major problem with Ash’s team is that they gave him so many Pokémon and so much unequal screen time. Yes, it’s obvious and expected that the marketable starters would receive a large quantity of the screen time, but I think this is the first time we’ve had a series where we’ve had to classify members of Ash’s team as either main or reserve. We’ve seen Oshawott in over half of the episodes in the entire BW series (most which were unnecessary appearances), while my favorite Pokémon on Ash’s team, Palpitoad, has only been seen about 5 times since his capture and he hasn’t done much in any of the episodes. Ash hasn’t even had him on his regular team unless it was for a major battle. Scraggy, I think got way more screen time than needed that could have been shared with Unfezant or Leavanny. Pikachu I also think was used in too many gym battles. In the beginning when Ash’s Pokemon were skill weak, I think it was okay, but I don’t think he should have been used in or after Elesa’s battle when Ash had like 8 Pokemon.

2. Training- A LOT of training in this series happened off screen which made it seem like some Pokemon are becoming strong out of nowhere. I think this showed the most in the gym battle against Skyla. I personally don’t feel that Tranquill should have been able to defeat Swoobat and had the strength to battle Unfezant and Swanna while also evolving. A lot of moves were also learned off screen which is really disappointing since learning new moves is supposed to be an exciting big accomplishment. I also don’t like how some Pokemon get trained more than others. Once again, this mainly being the starters and Scraggy.


3. Moves-I think these Pokemon have had the worst movesets. The starters are the best example of this. Oshawott, Pignite, and Snivy all know 3 moves of their main type and a 4th move. Tackle is weak, Brick Break okay, but not that impressive, and Attract doesn’t work on females and does no damage. Sinvy’s moveset hasn’t even changed since her debut. Unfezant also falls into this category with her rather weak moves that we’ve seen from most of Ash’s other birds. Scraggy knows 2 normal moves, one that doesn’t do damage, and 2 fighting moves, one which I don’t think has even been mastered. (I’m not sure, I don’t recall if it was ever said.) So he’s basically screwed if he ends up against a ghost-type. Boldore’s moveset is diverse, but also rather weak. Leavanny knows 2 moves of each of his types, but they seem pretty effective the way he uses them. Palpitoad and Krookodile have the best movesets, I think , since they have a lot more type coverage.
The way most of the moves were learned also kind of sucked since it was all basically the same; right after an evolution or in a tight spot in a battle.

4. Personalities-Some Pokemon actually do have good personalities, but others have literally none. First off, Snivy I liked acting very mature, cool, and kind of solitary in the beginning, but she hasn’t done much recently and it's a little similar to Sceptile. The only major change I’ve seen is that she’s been getting closer to the other Pokemon now, like eating with them as opposed to being separated in the beginning of the series. Leavanny is also okay in that he’s grown from being a stubborn troublemaker into a mature father figure. Scraggy has also really matured over the series and is a lot more helpful these days. Other than these 3 the rest are kinda lame. Oshawott, I don’t think I need to explain. Pignite’s dislike of losing didn’t seem very unique to me since most pokemon get upset when they lose, not to mention that this was abandoned as soon as he evolved. I can literally see no differences between Unfezant and Swellow in terms of personality. Boldore and Palpitoad have shown no unique personalities after their capture episodes. Krookodile is pretty much the tough-guy Pokemon.

Maybe it’s just because Ash tended to train a lot more in past regions and had less Pokemon to focus on, but I really think Ash’s training skills and his Pokemon’s development has been a lot worse in Unova.

 

[Supreme Leader Palpitoad]

Re: Do you feel that Satoshi/Ash's Unova Pokémon have been toned down from his previo

^^ Agree with everything. Specially about Palpitoad.