Do you think the Contest arc opened the show up to romance and shoujo storylines?

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Cybersai

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When the show first started it only centered around Ash and was your typical shonen series about a male protagonist and his two sidekicks.

When Advanced Generation started the cast was revamped to include a female videogame heroine by the name of May, and although some people were confused as to what they were going to do with a new female, the writers eventually built May up to be a co-starring character of the AG series with her own plot-centric story arc via Contests.

May's character was created to be a very girly and sweet-natured protagonist, the same type of dynamic you find in many shoujo anime. As the Contests arc went on, many characters were introduced that seemed to be tailored more toward girls. We had your typical shoujo pretty boy and love interest, (Drew), your stereotypical comedic gay man, (Harley), and others such as Brianna which is the typical fangirl of the pretty boy, Solidad who is the ultimate female and an example of female empowerment, as well as other bi-sexual characters, (Kelly), or jealous girls thinking May was trying to steal her boyfriend, (Erika). Almost all the characters in Contests seemed to be picked out of shoujo stereotypes, and May was considered to be for girls what Ash was for guys.

Fast forward to D/P, and Dawn was introduced to continue what May started, as a pivotal-plot centric female protagonist with a very shoujo vibe to her, (perhaps more so, due to her enthusiasm and her love of fashion), the cute clovers/hearts that come out of Pokeballs, and the Contest arc continues to be centered around girls.

As a contrast to May's story however, this time we have a strong female rival, (Nozomi), who many suspect to be of the lesbian variety, and Kengo who is seemingly another good natured male. Although we haven't seen many coordinators in Dawn's story since it just started, it seems to follow the pattern of picking stereotypes out of shoujo anime.

Now that I'm done preaching you about the above which can be summed up in one sentence, (Contests = shoujo), I can get on with my point without trying to fluff up a single question. Since my threads always start with long-winded posts that go absolutely nowhere and bore people to tears, I'll cut to the chase:

Do you think the Contest arc has opened the show up for the writers to include more romances, shoujo storylines, and overall arcs that they couldn't do before?

Has the inclusion of female co-starring protagonists moved the show into a more shoujo territory? Do you think the amount of shoujo-ness added to the show increases its amount of shippiness?
 
It does bring some extra Character Development and romance in the show, which is always good in my book.

And they don't seem anymore girly really...I mean, unless Dusclops, Medicham, and Lairon are girly...

Hey, what happened to you at the SPP?
 
I always figured that Contests were Pokemon if it were shoujo, anyway... which may be why I despise them.
 
Shippiness - no. We've had romance ever since the beginning. In fact, I'd say shippiness popped up more frequently at the very beginning of the show (Kanto and OI), particularly between the main characters, than it did in any of the post-Johto seasons, with the possible exception of the Battle Frontier. The romance quota in AG/BF was somewhere between OI and Johto levels. (I once did an estimate of how many eps contained significant Pokeshippy/Contestshippy moments, and it worked out as a roughly equal number for both ships). DP's so far given us Pikachu/Buneary, and one Penguinshipping hint on Kengo's side, which I'd say is more-or-less on target. There have been a few peaks and troughs on the graph, but on the whole, the level of shippiness in Pokemon has been fairly consistent.

Shoujo-wise, the contests obviously have more of a girly bent to them than gym battles. I think it's too simplistic to reduce every contest character down to a shoujo stereotype, though, and in some cases you have to do quite a bit of reaching to paint the character as such. How does Kelly fit the pattern, for instance? Her personality is boisterous, friendly and a bit tomboyish - just like plenty of girls Ash has competed with during his quest (e.g. Gardenia). Minamoshipping, while having more to back it up than most fanon ships, is nevertheless still fanon, and its biggest cited hint is a scene taken out of context. Brianna is not so different from Macey (having a fangirly crush on one of the main characters), or Rudy (being a battling opponent as well as a romantic opponent for a main character), or any of the 'shy little kid' characters we've seen, such as the boy with the Yanma in Johto. Nozomi is boyish - like Anabel. Soledad is wise and experienced - like, oh, dozens of characters on the show, but I'll pull up Trinity, Harrison and Tyson for comparisons. Harley is, basically, James x 10. Drew is a much prettier version of Gary. And so on.

In terms of storylines, again, the contests might ensure that we see more shoujoness on a regular basis, but there was plenty of that kind of stuff flying around in the good old days. E.g. the two Suzie episodes: Pokemon Fashion Flash has Suzie fretting over her customers all being wowed by the flashy Salon Roquet, Ash and Misty bickering over whether the outside matters as well as the inside, James squealing about how "roses are the flowers of love and romance!" (wish I'd thought to quote that during the old Advance/Contestshipping debate :p), and Ekans and Koffing's fabulous makeovers (not to mention Misty's). And Beauty and the Breeder has the rather angsty and faintly Casablanca-ish love triangle between Brock, Suzie and Zane, with what we may as well call a contest for a backdrop.

Or how about The Ghost of Maiden's Peak, with the festival setting, the romantic legend of the maiden, and the romance-driven plot? The Water Flowers of Cerulean City has a very girly setting, with the synchronised swimming and the trio of pretty gym leaders in tiny dresses. The other Kanto episode set at the gym, The Misty Mermaid, has even more where that came from. And, of course, there was Princess vs. Princess, the one episode in Pokemon's history where the premise is all about the girls. Aaaand there are also the two Pokeshippy gym eps in the Orange Islands - Misty Meets Her Match, most notably, is the only gym episode where the battle itself was the B plot and a romance story the A plot. Even in Spontaneous Combusken, it was the other way around. Also, there was the ep about the pink Pokemon. And a lot of other ones. :p I'm tired now.

So... no, I don't think the contest arc opened the show up to romance and shoujo. I think it brings us more shoujo on more of a regular basis, though. And it's marked a step away from tomboyish heroines like Misty and towards cutesy girly girls like May and Dawn, I suppose. Even Jessie's got in on the act. I wonder if it's significant that in the earlier eps, Jessie and James frequently crossdressed, while in AG and DP, Jessie usually wears something glamorous and feminine, and James almost always stick's to men's clothes when he needs to disguise himself? AG also had a fair few scenes of James and Meowth being united in their despair and incomprehension when Jessie goes off on some mad kick, whereas in Kanto, James was usually talking a flamboyant talk right along with Jessie. Am I making this stuff up, or has anyone else noticed a shift in the TR dynamic?
 
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But the battles themselves don't seem any more girly then Ash's, as I don't see how anyone could label the Combusken v. Absol battles as being more girly then say... Pikachu vs. Milotic.
 
The main battle difference that really has a lean towards shoujo is sparkles vs. explosions when attacks meet.
 
The appeals are girly. Kind of. Except when they're not. :p Perhaps they don't get enough focus compared to the battles for that to be significant, though.
 
I think the D/P Contests lean toward a more shoujo side, or at least a more visible one.

In AG you saw a girl (May) run on stage and let her Pokemon out, do appeals and do battle. For the most part though, the shoujo-ness came from the character interaction. In D/P, you see Dawn wearing pretty dresses and doing her hair, and then when she lets her Pokemon out there are sparkles and clovers and hearts etc. due to the stickers on the Pokeballs.

I'm just wondering, but do girls like the fact that the writers have dolled up Contests to make them more feminine than the AG ones? All the dresses and clovers/hearts and stuff can't be said to be anything *but* girly.

I know Dawn's dresses are cool for fanservice and all, but seeing a girl battle in a dress certainly gives a different vibe than just watching a girl battle in her normal clothes.

I'd say that's why D/P's Contests can lead more toward relationships, as for some reason, romance is always a big part of anime (and television in general) oriented toward girls. Do you guys think this is a good stereotype?

Giant Enemy Habunake! said:
Hey, what happened to you at the SPP?
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You should ask Jo-Jo, she knows why. :)
 
Scott85 said:
I think the D/P Contests lean toward a more shoujo side, or at least a more visible one.

In AG you saw a girl (May) run on stage and let her Pokemon out, do appeals and do battle. For the most part though, the shoujo-ness came from the character interaction. In D/P, you see Dawn wearing pretty dresses and doing her hair, and then when she lets her Pokemon out there are sparkles and clovers and hearts etc. due to the stickers on the Pokeballs.

I'm just wondering, but do girls like the fact that the writers have dolled up Contests to make them more feminine than the AG ones? All the dresses and clovers/hearts and stuff can't be said to be anything *but* girly.

I know Dawn's dresses are cool for fanservice and all, but seeing a girl battle in a dress certainly gives a different vibe than just watching a girl battle in her normal clothes.

I'd say that's why D/P's Contests can lead more toward relationships, as for some reason, romance is always a big part of anime (and television in general) oriented toward girls. Do you guys think this is a good stereotype?
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Ah...ha. But the dresses and the dolling up are in the actual games; Johanna literally GIVES YOU a dress when you enter the Contest hall in Hearthome City for the first time. If the anime's encorporating more shojo, it's the fault of D/P for making the sub-games more girly and not the writers.

So there.

And I'm with Jo-Jo on the romance issue.
 
I'm just wondering, but do girls like the fact that the writers have dolled up Contests to make them more feminine than the AG ones?
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Dude, why do you keep acting like every girl who watches the show has the same opinion on everything? We don't all share a brain. Really.

I'm sure some girls like the dress-ups, some girls don't and some (most) girls don't think it's a big enough deal to form a strong opinion on.
 
Jo-Jo owned the entire arguement.

xD Therefore, I agree completely with Jo-Jo and also LNW, who stated the dresses and stickers and whatnot were all a part of the game. I mean, the Contests in the game even have little dancing competitions now. Those haven't been shown in the D&P anime so far. So, the games definitely have shoujoness to them just like the show. Maybe Nintendo just wanted to be x-tr3mez with the touch screen. Or maybe they really are trying to girl-up the game. But I don't 100% think so. I mean, there were a large majority of girls who were playing the games in the first place -- they didn't need to try and lure more girls into it, I don't think.

To me, I find the Gym Battles in the game the Contests in the games, equally amusing. And I'm a girl. *waves* I enjoy both because they're both fun. Now... I definitely could see some boys not liking the Contests in the game, but not because of the "girliness" in it, but because Contests have a habit of going on foooorever.

Even in the D&P games, Contests don't seem to be just for girls. You have to make Poffins to enhance your Pokémon's appeals, and doing so involves mixing and stirring with the touch screen -- that physical involvement with the DS isn't just for girls. Stirring with the touch screen can be fun for both girls and boy~! And like I mentioned before with the dancing, you also have to use the touch screen.

However! I think Scott is right about how they brought a female into the limelight to appeal to the female viewers. That doesn't mean I think the anime became more "girly" in AG, but I think the shift between hero, Ash and heroine, May let female fans appreciate a character more, unlike Misty who was just a pretty background display after a while.

Anyway, I'm done talking. I kinda forgot my point of this post.
 
I agree with most of what Jo-Jo's said. We've had shipping in one form or another since the series began, and I don't think it's really increased since AG.

And as I've said before, it seems to me that the labeling of May's sub-plot as "shoujo" is done mostly because May happens to be female. Female protaganist does not automaticly mean a show is shoujo.
 
I think the writers are trying to get back some of it's shippyness lost in the Jhoto adventures in a enviroment or kid-friendly way that gets people intersted yet not as easy to point out just from a title or crossdressing but something a kid young enough would just pass and leave it as unnoticed.
 
I'm glad the writers decided to make most of May's opponents have unexpected Contest Pokemon, compared to her mostly girly ones. It gave a nice balance to see things like Dusclops doing a creepy appeal, but then a happy Skitty appeal, nya.
 
D/P is a very shoujo game, now that I think of it.

The contests are more or less Fashion Witch Love and Berry with Pokemon instead of anime chicks (Please, oh please, Ninty, bring that game over here!)
And Deadpan, I personally think GF was making every effort they could to girlify the games. Some of the new Pokemon look like they were drawn by a five year old girl... THE KAWAII! IT BURNS! (sarcasm. My room is 60% Team Rocket and 40% Sanrio. No lie.)

Although, being the shipper for hire I more or less am, I don't think shipping necessarily means shoujo. (Even though they were getting to Gravitation-esque levels with that Gary and Ash shippiness near the end of Johto) Every anime has shipping, even DBZ (a guy anime if there ever was one). But the Contests to me have always seemed very shoujo. That doesn't mean the show's purposefully taking a more shoujo direction; it just means it's got elements that appeal more to girls (Inuyasha's technically classified as shonen, but I know for a fact more chicks read/watch that one. Ditto Tsubasa.)
 
Hell, I'd even be watching that show if it ever actually progressed. How many times must Naraku pull an escape out of his ass before we all jump Rumiko, anyway?

Anyway, I don't quite get or care for the All of A Sudden We Must Dress Up thing, but it's there. Whatever, man. (Look, I said whatever! I've slowly progressed towards being a shoujo poster!) Some form of shipping has been there from the start anyway, and I would guess the only thing that's changed is that with a major character being shipped off every season, said character can have her status quo shaken up and not really change the state of the series. I don't think that quite counts as shoujo, but what do I know?
 
Some of the new Pokemon look like they were drawn by a five year old girl.
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What? The cuteness factor seems way lower in DP, in fact this gen has some of the ugliest freaks ever made (and I love that, by the way).

I think Kanto had the most amount of "girly" Pokemon, imo.
 
I think another point to realize is that some people here didn't bother to pay attention to Contests the last 4 years, that's why their judgement is off. How in the world is AG less shoujo than D/P is? It doesn't have the pretty dresses in Contests or anything, but otherwise it had a shoujo lean as well.

Who was the guy again who tried to claim the D/P series was the first time a shoujo aspect was introduced in the anime? LMAO, so the last 4 years flew over his head?

Before Nozomi, we had Kelly, and dare I say the same lesbian tendencies with Nozomi were suggested with Kelly. And dare I see Kelly had more of them...she actually tickled May on a bench for goodness sakes!

And what about Erika (the coordinator, not the Gym leader), who thought that May was trying to steal her boyfriend away from her?

Now, how are those not shoujo examples?
 
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I think that the contest were introduced in the games and anime to attract more fans, that like girly stuff. I do partly agree with Jo-Jo, but it might also be to increase some romance to intrest femine peoples.
I remember where I used to live that when pokemon was really popular and everyone liked it, not alot of girls liked the anime. Also, the after I moved it still wasnt popular among girls. So maybe the shoujo sub-plot was designed to attract more femine people.
Thats what I think though, dont mind me and my comments.
 
Someone will have to explain to me how Kelly and Erika are any more 'shoujo' (that term is so nebulous, honestly) than Prima, Macey or Melody. When did humorous love triangles and lesbian subtext become confined to girls' anime, let alone post-Johto-Pokemon?
 
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