Does anyone else here feel the anime always did a really poor job in representing female characters as strong battlers?

[SirPentious]

One of the major problems I had with the anime, is that since its very beginning I feel it did a really poor job in showing female trainers strong in battle. Let me make some points to explain myself:

-First of all, most of Ash's female companions weren't battlers at all. May and Dawn did contests, while Serena and Chloe didn't even get anything close to that (showcases are like... a watered down version of contests...).
-Misty was a strong trainer indeed, but became as such only after she left Ash. Still a good exception thought;
-Iris and Lana were the only other of Ash's companions who were interested in battles.... but the anime did a REALLY bad job in showing them as good at it (sure Iris became the Unova Champion, but even after that, in both the battles she had on-screen with such title she got big fat Ls. I mean, she still got to the Master 8, but honestly seeing even ONE good example of her battles skills on-screen would have been much appreciated...);
-Regardless of Ash's outcomes, no female person ever won a League in the anime;
-Ash never had a female rival. The closest ones to that he had were Korrina in XYZ and Bea in Journeys (other two exceptions), and they barely count as they're still gym leaders, and after Ash beats them in middle of their respective serieses, they're basically out for the rest of them...;

Like, really: the way the anime represented female characters as battlers is really sad, either making them really bad at it, or not making battlers at all. The only trainers from Ash's series I could call good in battles are Misty (again: only after she left Ash), Korrina, Bea, Diantha and Cynthia. We might even add to the list the Gym leaders/Elite Four/Frontier Brain to which Ash lost at first try like Viola, Whitney, Agatha, Anabel or Fantina... but that's pretty much it. Ash's anime REALLY did a poor job in displaying female characters as strong in battle, as the female trainers that shown real strenght in battle or gave Ash trouble were very few... but sadly this is just the tip of the iceberg.

When Horizons was revealed, with a female character as the lead character, I was hopeful this would change, that Liko could become a strong trainer and put an end to this trend, and it would have been really interesting, given that personality wise she's vastly different from Ash.... but in the end I just ended up fooling myself SO badly. For a while things were actually working with Liko, even after she struggled in the third arc, in the fourth one she shown how those losses paid off and how strong she became (heck, she even defeated a Pokemon of a regional Champion AND managed to stand up against a Legendary), I really respected her... and then the writers had to ruin everything with the timeskip.

After the timeskip Liko was basically shafted as a strong trainer, and Roy took over the entire series and was fed by the writers with all the power he could get, Skeledirge becomibg potentially even stronger than Ash's Pikachu, Roy getting Rayquaza, and the MegaLucario Z, while Liko was basically sidelined, and basically becoming just like all of Ash's female companions. And it's even worse when you think they didn't even bother to give Liko and Dot a MegaEvolution for themself. Not only after the timeskip things have returned to be just like they were during Ash's anime, but the writers they made them even worse than ever before.

It's honestly absurd how in 30 years the writers never figured out how to display a strong female trainer in battle, especially since by what I can tell, the anime is the only production in the franchise that seems to have this problem. The games are no short of strong female trainers, aside of our own character possibly being a female (albeith mute...), there are several female characters that were difficult to beat, or at least displayed as big pieces of trainers in the stories (to say: Korrina is the Master of Megaevolutions in ZA. And even if we chose the male character in ZA we still have a strong female trainer with Taunie); the Manga is not short of strong female battlers neither between Blue (Green? Always confused on how am I supposed to call her due translations), Sapphire, Platinum and Y; heck even some other animated shorts displayed female people as strong in battles, like Blossom's Dream, or the MegaHawlucha Trailer, or half of the Pokemon Evolutions episodes.

It seems like this problem is present solely in the anime for what I know... I honestly can't tell if the writers really hate the idea of female people being strlng battlers... or ar just bad in writing them... does anyone else have this problem with the anime?

PS: sorry for the wall of text. I honestly didn't expect to write down such a long post myself... it really was a topic that bothered me so much it seems.

 

[skynerel]

Overall, I agree that most of Ash female companions, even the ones that we're supposed to be battle focused, were done dirty and were not properly handled in the anime.

Misty, despite being presented as a battler, didn't properly train her Psyduck until Sun/Moon, her goldeen and her starmie were jobbers, Horsea didn't get much screentime or any battle at all. Her battle against Dorian was good, but sadly we didn't get much of that and don't get me started on the awful movepool that her Corsola has. Despite winning many battles and being portrayed as strong, her more prominent attacks are Tackle and Spike Cannon. For some reason they didn't giver her a single water or rock type attack. After she left, they definitely developed her a bit more when she bonded and learned to handle Gyarados, learned to take care of the gym, got access to Mega Evolution, and Politoed became one of her powerhouses (even defeating one of Ash's reserves), but that's after her original run, so it's a pitty that it took them that long to develop her.

Then Iris, another "battle focused" pokegirl. She got a bit more development than Misty with her backstory, but her team was super underdeveloped during BW. Excadrill did not listened to her at first, Emolga didn't want to battle at times (and it had a strange movepool that didn't include any flying attacks nor Iris ever bothered to teach her anything new), her Dragonite also didn't listened to her and when it did, it started losing battles (very counterproductive to the point they were trying to convey), Axew didn't do much other than learn a few strong moves out of nowhere. Like I'm supposed to think she is some sort of "battle prodigy" when she can't handle half her team? Then in journeys she somehow becomes champion and she still loses every battle on screen lol.

I think people don't give enough credit to Dawn and May. Sure contests have an appeal round, but there's also a battle round that requires a level of training. Sometimes they were shown to be competent battlers (even if it's true that May relied on luck too many times), Dawn was better and even Ash adopted some of her strategies such as spinning while dodging and Ice Aqua Jet. So I think they should get some credit for that, I don't know what happened after Dawn, it's like they forgot how write capable female companions.

Serena wasn't battle focused so I feel it's not fair to judge her character based on something she was never meant to be. However, after her, having so many female companions that didn't partake much in battle got old pretty quickly. I didn't like how they stripped Mallow and Lana of their captain trials title in the anime. They could've easily used that to make them more battle focused.

When it comes to Liko, she has had the most battle focus out of any of the most recent pokegirls, sadly she has been overshadowed since the timeskip. Horizons was pretty balanced in terms of battle focus between the leads, not sure why they suddenly decided to change that. At first I thought she was going to catch up with Roy, because she was sad after losing Friede, so it is understandable that perhaps she wasn't training 100%, however, which each passing episode Roy gets more battles, he gets to defeat more strong opponents, got access to two different versions of mega evolution and now even got a legendary himself (I know she has one), so it doesn't seem realistic for her to be viewed as in the same level as him.

 

[SirPentious]

When it comes to Liko, she has had the most battle focus out of any of the most recent pokegirls, sadly she has been overshadowed since the timeskip. Horizons was pretty balanced in terms of battle focus between the leads, not sure why they suddenly decided to change that. At first I thought she was going to catch up with Roy, because she was sad after losing Friede, so it is understandable that perhaps she wasn't training 100%, however, which each passing episode Roy gets more battles, he gets to defeat more strong opponents, got access to two different versions of mega evolution and now even got a legendary himself (I know she has one), so it doesn't seem realistic for her to be viewed as in the same level as him.

The only way to fix this, is that the final part of Horizons, after Spinel is defeated, consists in Liko taking Geeta's advice to take on the Paldea League. It's honestly the only hope left to redeem her and making her the strong trainer I hoped for... but even if it was the case, as I said in the other thread, after Liko beats the League and becomes Champion level, knowing the writers, they will make her having one last battle with Roy, and losing yet again, screwing up every good purpouse the arc had until that point... I'm honestly not eager to see the next arc if that's what is going to happen...

 

[Falaish]

The issue is with the OS, is that Misty/Brock were not allowed to surpass Ash after he got their Gym badges. For example Misty loses close to 80% of her battles on-screen in the OS when she's not relying on Psyduck's headache to save herself, and Brock actually never wins a single battle (against a trainer) for the entire OS afterward unless I'm forgetting something.

The writers also limited Misty in other ways, half her Pokemon in Kanto couldn't even battle properly unless under certain conditions, (Togepi, Psyduck, Horsea and Goldeen), and her Starmie was dumped early and seemed weaker than her Staryu for some reason. Staryu was decent for the time, but then Ash's newly caught Chikorita beats it in the Totodile Duel in Johto. So Misty didn't really have a competent battler till she got Poliwhirl in mid-Johto, and later on Corsola, but as said that was already more than halfway into her series. She did become much stronger after she left and her cameos in AG/SM and MPM prove that, but she wasn't allowed that strength as a main character.

As for Iris even though she lost both battles in JN, she did put up a good fight against Ash (she defeats Dracovish in practically 1 hit), and her Dragonite was stronger than Ash's, she would have won if she didn't calm Ash's Dragonite down with her powers. And of course she's the first trainer to defeat two of Cynthia's Pokemon on-screen and do some considerable damage to Haxorus.

 

[RetroPokeFan]

When it comes to Liko, she has had the most battle focus out of any of the most recent pokegirls, sadly she has been overshadowed since the timeskip.

You know it actually reminds me of Akiza Izinski from Yu-Gi-Oh 5D's who went through a similar thing. Started off really strong and had some great duels but after the Dark Signers arc ended and Crow was introduced she took a massive backseat.

Only in this show's case Liko's taking a backseat for a character who got introduced very early on and not only that but apparently isn't allowed to catch any Pokémon that can mega evolve or even battle any of the Blueberry Elite Four.

Skeledirge becomibg potentially even stronger than Ash's Pikachu,

I wouldn't be too worried about this considering Ash hasn't been relevant even once in this series and they're probably not ever gonna be crossing paths anytime soon. And besides Pikachu's taken down a few legendries and a once undefeatable Charizard which is more impressive than that Rayquaza bum who stayed in a cave doing nothing.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I would strongly argue that May and Dawn were both shown to be competent battlers. Sure, Contests were clearly designed to be appealing to for girls, but at the end of the day, Contest battles are still battles. They showed that pretty clearly in May's first Contest. You can do well in the appeal round, but if you can't battle well, you can't win a Contest. A good chuck of May's Contest victories were from knocking out her opponent's Pokemon too. Granted, I agree that sometimes she got too lucky, but in order to be a good Coordinator, you still needed to be a good battler. Dawn was almost the opposite where she initially struggled with appeals, but could handle battles pretty well. Both May and Dawn got a good amount of focus in their respective series and were shown to be good battlers. I think that they should count for something, especially Dawn. Dawn's Contests were treated with the same importance as Ash's Gym battles. Throughout DP, they inspired each other with different strategies that helped them out with their different battles.

Misty was more into traditional battling by comparison, but I don't think that really helped her. She didn't have a proper goal that she could work towards and her team in the original series was largely full of under developed forgettable Pokemon. She had some good focus episodes, but she always felt like she talked the talked but not walked the walk when it came to Pokemon battles. She did make more progress after she became a Gym Leader. While I don't think her writing was particularly good during the original series, I'm also willing to give it a pass, to some degree at least. This was the first series where they were still trying to figure things out. Ash and Team Rocket were the only ones to get consistent focus during the original series too. Even with the games, we didn't get a playable female characters until Crystal. We still saw strong female Gym Leaders, but my point is that there weren't a lot of female characters within the first couple of generations.

Iris was more into battling, but much like Misty, the writing around her was bad and I would argue far worse. BW kept trying to hype her up as this powerful gifted Dragon Master in training, but her skills never backed it up. Cilan had to point out the problem she had with Excadrill for years, Emolga was so unnecessary, they never figured out if they wanted Axew to be the strong secondary mascot or the cute useless baby Pokemon and Dragonite was given to Iris to give the illusion that she had made progress when she really hadn't. It also never won a battle after it chose to listen to Iris, which does weaken the message they were going for with their connection. She did become the Unova Champion by the time Journeys happened, but I don't think that was particularly good either. For fans of Iris, I can see how it would feel like payoff from BW, but for me, it felt like more undeserved hype. I can't blame the writers too much when they obviously couldn't have planned for Journeys when BW was airing. Plus, Iris is the Unova Champion in B2/W2, so they kind of had to do it, especially with how the Master Class was designed for feature all of the current regional Champions, but it often felt like they were trying to put anime Iris into the square hole that was video game Iris with her Journeys appearances. Yeah, she lost her on-screen battles during that series, but I don't think having a victory would have changed anything for me. It still would have felt undeserved after how she was average at best throughout BW.

Serena wasn't into battling, but I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. She wasn't designed with battling in mind and to be fair, she didn't really came off as an incompetent battler from what I can remember at least. I do agree that Showcases were the poor man's Contest. If it wasn't for the good character moments Serena had, they would have been more of a chore to go through. The SM girls weren't designed to be into battling either, but SM wasn't really a battle heavy series either. I do remember fans hyping up Lana as being a battler and I guess compared to Mallow and Lana, she is, but that doesn't say much. They were still likable and had some good moments, but also some of the least interesting female leads. If it wasn't for Mallow's soul crushing episode about her mother, I still think she would be the most forgettable main character in the anime's history.

I liked Chloe and she had some good episodes in Journeys. The buildup to her becoming more interested in Pokemon leading up to her catching Eevee was really good. The problem was it didn't really lead up to more than that. I liked most of her episodes meeting the different Eevee evolutions and arguably, letting her be free to choose her own goal in her own time makes sense, but it did feel like buildup to the same conclusion we got at the beginning of Journeys. I still remember one version of Journeys' opening theme that had Ash and Goh rush out of the lab while Chloe, holding onto her Eevee, stayed behind in the lab. I'm sure that it wasn't their intent, but it still gave the impression that the boys could go off on fun Pokemon filled adventures together while the token girl stays behind with her one Pokemon. As a long time Pokemon fan, seeing that was sad, painful and upsetting.

Technically speaking, Ash did have a female rival with Bianca in BW, but BW Bianca was a joke, so that probably doesn't help matters either. Bea should count as a rival. I don't know why being a Gym Leader would make her not also be a rival, but regardless, their rivalry was pretty minimal during Journeys anyway. I can't blame them too much for not giving Ash female rivals. Most rivals in the main series are male characters. The female rivlas, at least prior to Scarlet/Violet, tended to be the other playable character instead of a different character. Instead of Ash battling against May or Serena, having them as part of the cast would make more sense. They could have shown more strong female trainers in Leagues though. I think they were only able to do that in the Hoenn League, so they still could have done more in other areas.

I can't speak much on Liko since I still haven't watched Horizons. I keep putting it off, but I'll get to it eventually. I can't say that I'm too surprised that Roy has gotten more battles and focus than Liko has. The anime hasn't been interested in having battle active female leads since BW. Some might say it started with XY since that started the trend of having female leads less interested in battling, but I would argue it started with Iris. She battled, but siginficantly less so than Dawn and with much worse writing to boot. Either way, the lack of female battlers within the main cast has been going on for well over a decade by the time Horizons started. I didn't think it would change overnight just because it had a female lead. Even before the timeskip, her goal, from what I've heard at least, was to understand Pokemon. I know that she does battle, but my point is a goal like that still doesn't necessarily require her to battle more frequently.

I'm not sure how they could potentinally fix this issue. Making the female lead actually into battling and doing it well sounds like it would be a good first step, but with this problem being as pronounced as it has for years, I don't know if it would be that easy or if they're that interested in doing so. It's less of an issue with the Pokemon anime specifically and more like potential sexist writing in general.

 

[SirPentious]

I'm not sure how they could potentinally fix this issue. Making the female lead actually into battling and doing it well sounds like it would be a good first step, but with this problem being as pronounced as it has for years, I don't know if it would be that easy or if they're that interested in doing so. It's less of an issue with the Pokemon anime specifically and more like potential sexist writing in general.

Honestly, at this point I just have to come to acceptance that the anime will never have a strong battler female protagonist, and I should just let it go.... and again: this is NOT a problem that afflicts the entire Pokemon franchise, but only the anime, so the problem is not at the root, but solely in the writing team of the anime. And it's embarassing on multiple level that this has been a problem for 30 years, and they never tried seriously to fix it. I really can't tell if they hate females so much, or they're just bad at their job...

 

[Hidden Mew]

Honestly, at this point I just have to come to acceptance that the anime will never have a strong battler female protagonist, and I should just let it go.... and again: this is NOT a problem that afflicts the entire Pokemon franchise, but only the anime, so the problem is not at the root, but solely in the writing team of the anime. And it's embarassing on multiple level that this has been a problem for 30 years, and they never tried seriously to fix it. I really can't tell if they hate females so much, or they're just bad at their job...

I still say May and Dawn count as strong battler female protagonists, so it isn't like the anime has never had any good female characters before. Even among the non battle active female leads, I think Serena was pretty solid. She definitely had better writing than both Misty and Iris in my opinion. Lillie and Chloe had some good moments too. So it isn't like all of the female leads have been poorly written regardless of whether they're into battling or not.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that the writers hate women. As bad and as frustrating as the writing can be at times, I think that's potentially reading too much into it, especially when I don't think it's all the same writers from the original series all the way until now with Horizons. I think that making boys into battlers while girls are more passive for years can read as being sexist, but that isn't the same thing as actively hating women.

 

[SirPentious]

I still say May and Dawn count as strong battler female protagonists, so it isn't like the anime has never had any good female characters before. Even among the non battle active female leads, I think Serena was pretty solid. She definitely had better writing than both Misty and Iris in my opinion. Lillie and Chloe had some good moments too. So it isn't like all of the female leads have been poorly written regardless of whether they're into battling or not.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that the writers hate women. As bad and as frustrating as the writing can be at times, I think that's potentially reading too much into it, especially when I don't think it's all the same writers from the original series all the way until now with Horizons. I think that making boys into battlers while girls are more passive for years can read as being sexist, but that isn't the same thing as actively hating women.

With all the respect: I really don't think that writing a female character strong in battle for once, was really that of an absurd wish, especially since Pokemon is not even a Shonen... and again: this problem in the entire franchise afflicts ONLY the anime. The games, the Manga, and several minor animated shorts had MANY strong female battlers, so why those can have them, while the anime can't? They didn't even bother to give Liko a rematch with Grusha, the most symbolic of her losses in the series.

No matter how much you try to justify it, to me this is a big and frustrating problem, one that has always been there for 30 years straight, and to me it's especially frustrating to see many people who are defending post-timeskip Horizons' and Roy's writing, like if they're totally cool with the idea of the female lead getting shafted in this way. I'm not willing to keep watching this thing if this is how things are going to stay forever and ever. I think regardless to what the future of the anime is, I'm stopping with it as soon Spinel is defeated, and then never touch it with a stick ever again.

And for the record: I wouldn't say that the writers of the anime being sexists for 30 years straight, is something to be chill about...

 

[Daren]

For the protagonists Ash was already slotted into the "battle" character role. Brock suffered as a result of this, too.

I think the more telling issue was the leagues. Every single one seems to have been won by a boy or man. The league kickers were also all male. I'm not sure if the anime ever created a woman or girl who was a powerful battler, or only uses ones from the games.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that the writers hate women. As bad and as frustrating as the writing can be at times, I think that's potentially reading too much into it, especially when I don't think it's all the same writers from the original series all the way until now with Horizons. I think that making boys into battlers while girls are more passive for years can read as being sexist, but that isn't the same thing as actively hating women.

I think Horizons is pretty much all new writers from what I can tell.

I suspect the writers (at least for the Ash era) thought of it primarily as a boys franchise; the games didn't let you play as a girl until Crystal, for instance.
And rather tellingly, there was that notorious comment from the original series director, Masamitsu Hidaka, about how they change the girl companions to "give the boys new eye candy"...

 

[RetroPokeFan]

I think Horizons is pretty much all new writers from what I can tell.

Two (Deko Akao and Michiro Tsuchiya) got carried over from Journeys but everyone else is completely new to the anime.

 

[Le Lapin de Nelvana]

After the timeskip Liko was basically shafted as a strong trainer, and Roy took over the entire series and was fed by the writers with all the power he could get, Skeledirge becomibg potentially even stronger than Ash's Pikachu, Roy getting Rayquaza, and the MegaLucario Z, while Liko was basically sidelined, and basically becoming just like all of Ash's female companions. And it's even worse when you think they didn't even bother to give Liko and Dot a MegaEvolution for themself. Not only after the timeskip things have returned to be just like they were during Ash's anime, but the writers they made them even worse than ever before.

Speaking of Roy taking over the series, there were times where Liko and Dot had their shining moments (and yes, Even Ult had his moments and broke the fourth wall to tell roy to quit hogging the show)

and even before the timeskip, roy and dot had episodic focus but also liko was the main focus with that pagogo

 

[Hidden Mew]

With all the respect: I really don't think that writing a female character strong in battle for once, was really that of an absurd wish, especially since Pokemon is not even a Shonen... and again: this problem in the entire franchise afflicts ONLY the anime. The games, the Manga, and several minor animated shorts had MANY strong female battlers, so why those can have them, while the anime can't? They didn't even bother to give Liko a rematch with Grusha, the most symbolic of her losses in the series.

No matter how much you try to justify it, to me this is a big and frustrating problem, one that has always been there for 30 years straight, and to me it's especially frustrating to see many people who are defending post-timeskip Horizons' and Roy's writing, like if they're totally cool with the idea of the female lead getting shafted in this way. I'm not willing to keep watching this thing if this is how things are going to stay forever and ever. I think regardless to what the future of the anime is, I'm stopping with it as soon Spinel is defeated, and then never touch it with a stick ever again.

And for the record: I wouldn't say that the writers of the anime being sexists for 30 years straight, is something to be chill about...

I don't think that you're reading my posts because I have brought up examples of how both May and Dawn were shown to be strong in battle. Even among the non-battle active female leads, there have been some good writing and character moments for some of them, so it's not like all of the female leads have been poorly written all this time.

That isn't to say that there aren't any valid complaints about the female leads in the anime. We haven't had a battle active female lead in well over a decade. But to say that the anime's treatment of female characters have been going on straight for thirty years is a bit of an exaggeration. You really have to overlook two series' worth of screentime and battles for its female leads to make that argument work. Admittedly, both AG and DP started over twenty years ago, but I keep bringing them up because both May and Dawn were treated as competent battlers. They had consistent screentime and had to battle frequently to earn ribbons. They have made good female characters that were also strong battlers before, so it isn't like that never happened once in the anime's history.

I also never said we should be chill about this writing problem. I just said that assuming that the writers hate women because of the sexist writing might be assuming too much, especially for Horizons' case given it has a mostly new writing staff.

For the protagonists Ash was already slotted into the "battle" character role. Brock suffered as a result of this, too.

I think the more telling issue was the leagues. Every single one seems to have been won by a boy or man. The league kickers were also all male. I'm not sure if the anime ever created a woman or girl who was a powerful battler, or only uses ones from the games.

There was Kaite from the Hoenn League and maybe the girl with the powerful Bellsprout in the Kanto League, although that might be more of a stretch by comparison. Astrid was in the Kalos League, but her match against Ash is mostly off-screen. Bianca was in the Unova League, but like I mentioned before, she's pretty much a joke, to the point where I wonder why they bothered to adapt her to the anime in the first place. I can't recall if the Johto or Sinnoh League had female trainers in them. The Alola League did have female trainers, but that was a weird League where everyone could take part, so that might not mean much, especially when the SM girls weren't particularly battle active anyway.

I think Horizons is pretty much all new writers from what I can tell.

I suspect the writers (at least for the Ash era) thought of it primarily as a boys franchise; the games didn't let you play as a girl until Crystal, for instance.
And rather tellingly, there was that notorious comment from the original series director, Masamitsu Hidaka, about how they change the girl companions to "give the boys new eye candy"...

They might have thought that battling would be more appealing to boys rather than seeing the franchise as a whole primarily for boys. Contests were definitely designed for girls, but even those still had battles, had male Coordinators and we saw less traditionally cute Pokemon being used in Contests too. Maybe thinking that the franchise was more for boys would make sense for the original series, but you'd think that by the time the third generation came out, they'd realize that the franchise is more gender neutral rather than aiming specifically at boys. I forgot about that comment. The interview was made after he had already left the staff, so we don't know if that kind of sentiment applies to more recent staff members, but regardless, it is a pretty telling comment.

 

[SirPentious]

I don't think that you're reading my posts because I have brought up examples of how both May and Dawn were shown to be strong in battle. Even among the non-battle active female leads, there have been some good writing and character moments for some of them, so it's not like all of the female leads have been poorly written all this time.

It's kinda hard for me to put contests at the same level of regular battles to be honest. Sure they did involve some battle factors but it's still not something I put at the same levels. Heck they made Ash and Dawn exchanging their Aipom and Buizel with each other because the former hated battles, and the latter wasn't much good with contests (and they even didn't bother to let Ambipom competing in the Sinnoh grand festival in the same way Buizel competed at the Sinnoh League... you know why.... why... just... WHY). So the anime clearly did made dinstinction between the two back then. But at least it gave May and Dawn something to do unlike all the other companions so I'll concede that.

Regardless, my point still stands: the anime always did a really bad job in representing female characters as good battlers, and as far as I'm concerned, this will never change, even if they change protagonists again next year.

Honestly the only way I can see this being fixed, at least for Horizons, is that for the next year, by the time Wind/Wave and consequently its anime releases, the rest of Horizons after Spinel is defeated, will enterily focus on Liko taking on the Paldea League (as Geeta suggested her at the end of the third arc), and beats all the Gym Leaders, Elite Four and Champion all by one. Given that Horizons doesn't make many fillers unlike Ash's series, I think that an entire year of episodes is enough for doing that without feeling rushed.

.... but even if that was the case, knowing the writers, you want to know what is gonna happen in the final episodes of the series after Liko will have done all of that and became a Champion Level trainer? Roy will challenge her and wipe the floor with her for the third time in a row, and everything will be back at the starting point again.

I'm not eager to see that if that was the case, and frankly I don't even realaly think a Liko Paldea League arc is what is gonna happen after Spinel is defeated, I was just making a supposition, chances of it being that are like 10%.

So yeah: I'm stopping with Spinel being defeated, regardless of what happens next.

 

[RetroPokeFan]

will enterily focus on Liko taking on the Paldea League (as Geeta suggested her at the end of the third arc), and beats all the Gym Leaders, Elite Four and Champion all by one

I hate to say it but this sounds like a recipe for one really rushed as hell league if we're having all of these guys involved (two gym leaders Kofu and Tulip only appeared via cameos so I don't see them appearing again to be frank).

If there's a tournament arc I think it'll just involve the likes of the main trio and Ult, Penny, Anne, Nemona, Drayton, Lacey, maybe Grusha and Larry if you want two gym leaders since Liko and Dot never beat them, Hassel for the Elite Four and also Amethio if he's interested. And then they'd probably save Geeta and Rika for the last battle as an extra bonus for who ends up winning it.

Of course that's assuming they'll even do one cause for we all know they might put their focus on other stuff.

 

[SirPentious]

I hate to say it but this sounds like a recipe for one really rushed as hell league if we're having all of these guys involved (two gym leaders only appeared via camera so I don't see them appearing again to be frank).

To be honest, 13 opponents in 40-45 eps doesn't seem a recipe to rushing things. Ash's Gym battles were dinstributed in serieses of 110 eps before the leagues themself, but that was because the high amount of fillers during Ash's serieses and other characters arcs in the middle. Horizons hardly makes fillers, so Liko taking on the Paldea League in the arc of 45 eps doesn't sound so absurd to me.

And I know that the idea of focusing only on Liko, with the others having just support roles seems preoposterous but... after the way they shafted Liko since the Timeskip happened, I think the writers really owe this to her and her fans... not counting much on actually happening...

To be honest, I don't know why I still bother so much with this anyway. We made pretty clear that these writers have no interest in making a strong female battler. It hasn't changed in 30 years, and it's not gonna change now. So I don't really know myself why I'm still wasting my time in thinking so much about it... I only know that now I'm more motivated in using the female characters whenever I play or replay Pokemon games than ever before (been doing that for a long time actually, for multiple reasons completely unrelated to this. But after what the writers did to Liko I think I will never pick a male character in a Pokemon game, ever again).

 

[Hidden Mew]

It's kinda hard for me to put contests at the same level of regular battles to be honest. Sure they did involve some battle factors but it's still not something I put at the same levels. Heck they made Ash and Dawn exchanging their Aipom and Buizel with each other because the former hated battles, and the latter wasn't much good with contests (and they even didn't bother to let Ambipom competing in the Sinnoh grand festival in the same way Buizel competed at the Sinnoh League... you know why.... why... just... WHY). So the anime clearly did made dinstinction between the two back then. But at least it gave May and Dawn something to do unlike all the other companions so I'll concede that.

I think that you're dismissing Contests too much. Saying that it involves some battle factors when the Contest battles are still Pokemon battles at the end of the day feels so strange. Sure, they are different kinds of battles since it requires different skills than what may benefit more traditional battling. We saw that difference more clearly whenever Ash took part in Contests and treated the battle rounds more straight forward. The two goals being distinct from each other doesn't mean that Contests can't be at the same level as traditional battles. Being a Coordinator is arguably more difficult than going after Gyms. If you lose to a Gym Leader, you can challenge them again whenever, but if you lost a Contest, you have to go to a different area hosting a Contest and there's only a certain amount of Contests before a Grand Festival too. Contest battles are still Pokemon battles. If you can't battle well enough, having the flashy appeals isn't enough to get you to a ribbon, let alone the Grand Festival. That was clear as early as May's first Contest. She did relatively well with the performance round, but didn't do enough battle training and that made her lose.

Aipom also didn't hate battles. Ash had used Aipom in his first two Gym battles in DP, so it didn't really have a problem with doing regular battles. Aipom just enjoyed Contest battles more. This was setup as early as when Ash caught it during the Kanto Grand Festival since it was excited after watching May's Contest battle. Ash took part in the first DP Contest because Aipom was enjoying Dawn's practices and it was to further setup the trade in the future. Buizel also never took part in a Contest with Dawn. That's partly why Ash took part in the Wallace Cup with Buizel. It was more suited to more traditional battles than Contest battles and Dawn having two Water Pokemon would be been a bit unnecessary anyway. The trade was done because it would benefit both Pokemon more. Amipbom not getting to the Grand Festival was a crime though. That's a whole other mess, but that is one of the biggest problems with Dawn's team. It kind of made Buizel the only one to benefit from the trade long term, even though I wish it had evolved too.

Writing off Contests as just giving the girls something to do just doesn't sit right with me. Contests were the only battle active goals a female character got that resulted in consistent focus, battles and development. I'm not saying that they were absolutely flawless. I don't think that the writers figured out how to make them distinct enough from regular battles until DP, but my point is that they still showed May and Dawn being competent trainers in battle. Being flashy or having sparkles with their combinations instead of explosions doesn't change that.

Regardless, my point still stands: the anime always did a really bad job in representing female characters as good battlers, and as far as I'm concerned, this will never change, even if they change protagonists again next year.

No, I would say that May and Dawn arguably prove that the anime hasn't always had a problem with representing female characters as good battlers. It's also seems a bit too dismissive to say that this will never change. I'm not sure how likely it is for them to have a more battle female lead again after all this time, but I don't think that it's impossible either.

Honestly the only way I can see this being fixed, at least for Horizons, is that for the next year, by the time Wind/Wave and consequently its anime releases, the rest of Horizons after Spinel is defeated, will enterily focus on Liko taking on the Paldea League (as Geeta suggested her at the end of the third arc), and beats all the Gym Leaders, Elite Four and Champion all by one. Given that Horizons doesn't make many fillers unlike Ash's series, I think that an entire year of episodes is enough for doing that without feeling rushed.

.... but even if that was the case, knowing the writers, you want to know what is gonna happen in the final episodes of the series after Liko will have done all of that and became a Champion Level trainer? Roy will challenge her and wipe the floor with her for the third time in a row, and everything will be back at the starting point again.

I'm not eager to see that if that was the case, and frankly I don't even realaly think a Liko Paldea League arc is what is gonna happen after Spinel is defeated, I was just making a supposition, chances of it being that are like 10%.

So yeah: I'm stopping with Spinel being defeated, regardless of what happens next.

I think that's exaggerating a bit regarding the amount of filler in previous series. AG covered the Hoenn journey I think in less than three years and the Battle Frontier arc. DP had a lot of storylines going on with Dawn's Contests, Ash's rivalry with Paul and the Team Galactic storyline. There were still filler episodes, but after the original series, I don't think that they padded out each series with that many filler episodes either. Liko doing at least eigth Gym battles and a Paldea League within a year still sounds like it would be potentially rushed to me. Starting a Gym Challenge with a mostly fully evolved team would also be kind of weird. Even the timing would feel off. A Gym challenge probably should have been done when Scarlet/Violet were still the newest main series title.

I'm not against the idea. Getting another proper Gym challenge would be cool. Even if we count the Island Challenge in SM, it's been a hot minute since the anime featured a proper Gym quest. Getting to see more of Paldea and the Gym Leaders would be cool too. I just don't know if I can see them going in that direction for a few reasons, not just because of it being potentially rushed or how they haven't had battle active female leads in ages. A part of me would want them to properly tackle the Area Zero storyline, but I don't know if they'd have any interest in that either. The fact that Arven hasn't appeared in Horizons yet also makes it less likely that they could effectively adapt that climax, especially when Koraidon and Miraidon haven't appeared yet either.

 

[SirPentious]

I think that you're dismissing Contests too much. Saying that it involves some battle factors when the Contest battles are still Pokemon battles at the end of the day feels so strange. Sure, they are different kinds of battles since it requires different skills than what may benefit more traditional battling. We saw that difference more clearly whenever Ash took part in Contests and treated the battle rounds more straight forward. The two goals being distinct from each other doesn't mean that Contests can't be at the same level as traditional battles. Being a Coordinator is arguably more difficult than going after Gyms. If you lose to a Gym Leader, you can challenge them again whenever, but if you lost a Contest, you have to go to a different area hosting a Contest and there's only a certain amount of Contests before a Grand Festival too. Contest battles are still Pokemon battles. If you can't battle well enough, having the flashy appeals isn't enough to get you to a ribbon, let alone the Grand Festival. That was clear as early as May's first Contest. She did relatively well with the performance round, but didn't do enough battle training and that made her lose.

Aipom also didn't hate battles. Ash had used Aipom in his first two Gym battles in DP, so it didn't really have a problem with doing regular battles. Aipom just enjoyed Contest battles more. This was setup as early as when Ash caught it during the Kanto Grand Festival since it was excited after watching May's Contest battle. Ash took part in the first DP Contest because Aipom was enjoying Dawn's practices and it was to further setup the trade in the future. Buizel also never took part in a Contest with Dawn. That's partly why Ash took part in the Wallace Cup with Buizel. It was more suited to more traditional battles than Contest battles and Dawn having two Water Pokemon would be been a bit unnecessary anyway. The trade was done because it would benefit both Pokemon more. Amipbom not getting to the Grand Festival was a crime though. That's a whole other mess, but that is one of the biggest problems with Dawn's team. It kind of made Buizel the only one to benefit from the trade long term, even though I wish it had evolved too.

Writing off Contests as just giving the girls something to do just doesn't sit right with me. Contests were the only battle active goals a female character got that resulted in consistent focus, battles and development. I'm not saying that they were absolutely flawless. I don't think that the writers figured out how to make them distinct enough from regular battles until DP, but my point is that they still showed May and Dawn being competent trainers in battle. Being flashy or having sparkles with their combinations instead of explosions doesn't change that.


No, I would say that May and Dawn arguably prove that the anime hasn't always had a problem with representing female characters as good battlers. It's also seems a bit too dismissive to say that this will never change. I'm not sure how likely it is for them to have a more battle female lead again after all this time, but I don't think that it's impossible either.


I think that's exaggerating a bit regarding the amount of filler in previous series. AG covered the Hoenn journey I think in less than three years and the Battle Frontier arc. DP had a lot of storylines going on with Dawn's Contests, Ash's rivalry with Paul and the Team Galactic storyline. There were still filler episodes, but after the original series, I don't think that they padded out each series with that many filler episodes either. Liko doing at least eigth Gym battles and a Paldea League within a year still sounds like it would be potentially rushed to me. Starting a Gym Challenge with a mostly fully evolved team would also be kind of weird. Even the timing would feel off. A Gym challenge probably should have been done when Scarlet/Violet were still the newest main series title.

I'm not against the idea. Getting another proper Gym challenge would be cool. Even if we count the Island Challenge in SM, it's been a hot minute since the anime featured a proper Gym quest. Getting to see more of Paldea and the Gym Leaders would be cool too. I just don't know if I can see them going in that direction for a few reasons, not just because of it being potentially rushed or how they haven't had battle active female leads in ages. A part of me would want them to properly tackle the Area Zero storyline, but I don't know if they'd have any interest in that either. The fact that Arven hasn't appeared in Horizons yet also makes it less likely that they could effectively adapt that climax, especially when Koraidon and Miraidon haven't appeared yet either.

Sigh Let's just agree to disagree on this point ok?

 

[RetroPokeFan]

The fact that Arven hasn't appeared in Horizons yet also makes it less likely that they could effectively adapt that climax, especially when Koraidon and Miraidon haven't appeared yet either.

Arven did make an appearence...

Spoiler

as a silent cameo during the last episode of the Terastal test arc with Liko vs Roy and he hasn't been seen again since.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Arven did make an appearence...

Spoiler

as a silent cameo during the last episode of the Terastal test arc with Liko vs Roy and he hasn't been seen again since.

Ah, I hadn't even heard about a cameo. Most of what I have heard made it seem like Arven hadn't appeared at all in Horizons. A silent cameo doesn't seem much better or make me think that they'll suddenly have him meeting the cast and diving into his own storyline.