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Dogasu's Backpack Discussion

Like were the Pity Badges a back pedal on what seemed to be calling out usual Shonen protagonist tropes (Of characters winning because of virtue and/or luck), or given the more downer ending considered, was Ash's story planned with a bittersweet ending where he fails to achieve his dream, but still eager to improve himself?
Yeah, it's odd, especially considering Ash actually did very well in the league despite the "pity badge" issue and not training properly before hand.
The show has often been unable to make up it's mind on how good a trainer he's meant to be, arguably even to to the very end. I genuinely think if it hadn't been extended he'd have just won the league and defeated Gary back in Kanto.
 
Read Dogasu's write-up on how the Porygon Shock incident affected production, fascinating stuff, I remember renting the tape with the Jinx and Snow Way Out episodes from my local library as a kid and being confused where they were supposed to take place in the show's timeline.
 
The editing of the footage on "snow way out" I'm surprised no one's tried to "correct" it back?
 
Didn't fully appreciate the hiatus write-up because pretty much everything that was mentioned was stuff that was already known, mostly from older episode comparisons on the site that mentioned how the order of the episodes got screwed up because of the Porygon incident. I guess it's convenient to have all that info in one single write-up, but I dunno, I expected more info that we didn't previous know about.

And maybe this was brought up before about the new episode 1 comparison, but I think the main reason why 4Kids didn't write the Kanto starter Pokemon's names in English in that one scene wasn't just laziness, but rather that they knew or anticipated that the starters would have different names in some other countries. So they left the name labels blank to avoid confusion and so that the French or Italian dub wouldn't also have to digitally alter the names.
 
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Haigney on that new 4kids podcast with Tara Sands and guest basically did confirm that the pokemon company and 4kids (along with sonic x and Sega and Kirby & F-Zero for Nintendo) didn't have the most strictest of guidance on their dubs, but we all knew that based on how those dubs turned out.
 
Didn't fully appreciate the hiatus write-up because pretty much everything that was mentioned was stuff that was already known, mostly from older episode comparisons on the site that mentioned how the order of the episodes got screwed up because of the Porygon incident. I guess it's convenient to have all that info in one single write-up, but I dunno, I expected more info that we didn't previous know about.

Having this information all in one place was indeed one of the goals, yes. But I have to push back on the idea that the write-up was mostly just a rehash of information everybody already knew. The TV schedule scans are all new, for example, and being able to actually see those schedules from back in the day (instead of just trusting some random person's report from 25 years ago) allows us to question the legitimacy of the claims that "Iwark the Bivouac" was ever scheduled to air in January 1998. I've also never seen anyone actually translate the Mewtwo Strikes Back Laserdisc information, or actually explain what shows took over Pocket Monsters' old Tuesday night timeslot, etc, etc.

I'm curious to know what else I could have possibly added to the page.

Yami-no-Game said:
And maybe this was brought up before about the new episode 1 comparison, but I think the main reason why 4Kids didn't write the Kanto starter Pokemon's names in English in that one scene wasn't just laziness, but rather that they knew or anticipated that the starters would have different names in some other countries. So they left the name labels blank to avoid confusion and so that the French or Italian dub wouldn't also have to digitally alter the names.

1) 4Kids did not give two shits about making things easier for the international dubs.
2) As mentioned in the very comparison you're commenting on, the French dub left the "Go Ash Go" sign alone. It wouldn't have mattered if the labels were in English, or Japanese, or whatever; the European dubbers most likely would have just left it as-is.
 
Having this information all in one place was indeed one of the goals, yes. But I have to push back on the idea that the write-up was mostly just a rehash of information everybody already knew. The TV schedule scans are all new, for example, and being able to actually see those schedules from back in the day (instead of just trusting some random person's report from 25 years ago) allows us to question the legitimacy of the claims that "Iwark the Bivouac" was ever scheduled to air in January 1998. I've also never seen anyone actually translate the Mewtwo Strikes Back Laserdisc information, or actually explain what shows took over Pocket Monsters' old Tuesday night timeslot, etc, etc.

I'm curious to know what else I could have possibly added to the page.



1) 4Kids did not give two shits about making things easier for the international dubs.
2) As mentioned in the very comparison you're commenting on, the French dub left the "Go Ash Go" sign alone. It wouldn't have mattered if the labels were in English, or Japanese, or whatever; the European dubbers most likely would have just left it as-is.
And don't forget your statement about the 4kids exclusive puns, jokes, and wordplay that wouldn't work in other languages. Like the Spanish dubs were translating 4kids pun titles verbatim and they didn't make sense.
 
I think the theory that 4Kids liked to “prepare” their shows for international airings by blanking out text (especially when they started blanking out English text) sounds somewhat rational, but like Dogasu said, there are just too many examples of them adding in text that just gets left in those foreign dubs anyway that I’m not totally convinced.

Forget who said it but I heard a lot of those text edits (where been the English was blanked) starting with Yugioh were done at Kids’ WB’s behest, who earnestly believed kids would get bored if there was too much on-screen text, and this was just a practice that carried on through all of their dubs. Whoever it was though, it’s pretty obvious someone in charge had some pretty odd ideas about what kids could or couldn’t handle in their cartoons that flew in the face of any basic common sense.

I think as far as Pokemon goes, these ones are my favorites:

magazine01j_small.jpg
magazine01e_small.jpg


ep020_gymj.jpg
ep020_gymu.jpg


ep013_contest.jpg
ep013_competition.jpg


"4Kids only makes the necessary changes to get their shows to air on American television!" Uh-huh. That "fight the big wave" edit actually had them add text, the blank one is the original.
 
Yeah I do have to wonder how much of that text editing was mandates from WB, I think maybe after that "Go Ash Go" edit WB insisted they try to limit adding or re-animating text in the future and just blank it out due to them having narrow-minded ideas about kids getting bored from reading text on-screen.

Anyways i'm interested to see the section next week about the rumors of an English dub of that Porygon episode, I don't believe one exists, it's possible one might've been started and cancelled maybe but we'll likely never know with 100% certainty.
 
Haigney on that new 4kids podcast with Tara Sands and guest basically did confirm that the pokemon company and 4kids (along with sonic x and Sega and Kirby & F-Zero for Nintendo) didn't have the most strictest of guidance on their dubs, but we all knew that based on how those dubs turned out.
So a new episode of the podcast with former 4Kids producer Jim Malone just came out (link here) and to add to this, Mr. Malone claims at 29:10 for Shaman King specifically, he had to write several emails to the original (Japanese) producers about 4Kids' reasoning for the changes they made and "that it was the only show that [he] worked on that [they] really had to be beholden to the original". So that explains why 4Kids' Shaman King dub was so comparatively, uncharacteristically faithful: because the Japanese side was more involved there.

Also, at 23:12 he talks about Pokémon Hoedown, the opening theme song for the English dub of the Camp Pikachu short, that he wrote and sung over the instrumental of the original Japanese opening, Ano Oka o Mezashite. According to his recollection, the reasoning they decided to dub over the Japanese opening for the short was simply due to budget and/or time constraints.
 
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So a new episode of the podcast with former 4Kids producer Jim Malone just came out (link here) and to add to this, Mr. Malone claims at 29:10 for Shaman King specifically, he had to write several emails to the original (Japanese) producers about 4Kids' reasoning for the changes they made and "that it was the only show that [he] worked on that [they] really had to be beholden to the original". So that explains why 4Kids' Shaman King dub was so comparatively, uncharacteristically faithful: because the Japanese side was more involved there.

Also, at 23:12 he talks about Pokémon Hoedown, the opening theme song for the English dub of the Camp Pikachu short, that he wrote and sung over the instrumental of the original Japanese opening, Ana Oka o Mezashite. According to his recollection, the reasoning they decided to dub over the Japanese opening for the short was simply due to budget and/or time constraints.
Interesting, I remember hearing 4Kids actually got a lot of complaints from parents about that dub because of how much it got away with.
 
On the their Patreon, they already have a new interview with Amy Birnbaum. She's going to do conventions now! She was max on pokemon and just reused her nerd boy voice for the character chip from Cubix.
 
I love the Porygon update.
Yeah i'm pretty sure a dub didn't happen, it's possible Maddie and Eric saw footage of the Porygon episode but 4Kids decided against dubbing it due to costs and not wanting to risk lawsuits from parents.
 
Forget who said it but I heard a lot of those text edits (where been the English was blanked) starting with Yugioh were done at Kids’ WB’s behest, who earnestly believed kids would get bored if there was too much on-screen text, and this was just a practice that carried on through all of their dubs. Whoever it was though, it’s pretty obvious someone in charge had some pretty odd ideas about what kids could or couldn’t handle in their cartoons that flew in the face of any basic common sense.

I think as far as Pokemon goes, these ones are my favorites:

magazine01j_small.jpg
magazine01e_small.jpg


ep020_gymj.jpg
ep020_gymu.jpg


ep013_contest.jpg
ep013_competition.jpg


"4Kids only makes the necessary changes to get their shows to air on American television!" Uh-huh. That "fight the big wave" edit actually had them add text, the blank one is the original.
To be fair though those examples that you posted are from the AG era, which happened like 5 years after the early Kanto episodes were dubbed. So it could be argued that 4Kids simply changed their stance between that time.

But regarding the Porygon stuff; that was a big update, but honestly I feel like nothing's really changed because we as fans still can't say for certain whether it was dubbed or not. My own head canon is that maybe Eric and Maddie did record their lines for the episode and Veronica and Rachael simply didn't? Maybe the producer/director had a last minute change of heart and decided not to finish dubbing the episode and that could explain why only two voice actors have memories of dubbing it while the other two don't. I know that Michael said some things and he would normally be considered to be very knowledgeable about the dubbing process, but this is the same guy who didn't realize that Charmander would be a recurring Pokemon so...

What gets me is that Maddie specifically said that the Porygon episode didn't give her a seizure, so she clearly knew the exact episode that people were talking about. It's doubtful to think that she was just remembering the wrong episode given the context.
 
Anyone ever feel like the people making those choices at 4Kids were preparing for a career in politics?
 
An argument against the "there is a dub" theory is that when Beauty and the Beach was aired during the Orange Islands it used the voice cast from that time and not the one it would have used had it been dubbed around its original position. That meand it was redubbed or most likely dubbed for the first time in the year 2000.
 
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