Drawing styles?

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Mootwo

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I posted similar topics on other boards and just got yelled at, but this one seems more open minded so I'm trying my luck again. Remember, this is an attempt to start a discussion, not a lecture, so I'll welcome any opinions on the matter, even if they disagree with mine.

Anyway, for the duration of this topic, I'll be referring to anime as a style. This is strictly incorrect, I know, but I'm using it for lack of a better word. I'm very interested in the different styles of cartooning, so I've taken a good look at the differences between them, including different styles of anime. Di Gi Carat and Evangelion are polar opposites regarding eye sizes, for example, but you can still see that they're basically variations on the same basic look. That look, and its variations, are what I'll be calling "the anime style". I'm mentioning this because when I posted this in other places a lot of people just said "Anime isn't a single style" and ignored the rest of the topic; that's missing the point, regardless of what you consider anime to be, there are a lot of very similar styles out there rooted in Japanese animation.

Secondly, I'd like to define what I'll be refferring to as "amateur cartoonists". By amateur I don't mean that they're bad, or that they need practice, I mean that they don't do it for a living, although they may or may not plan to. By cartooning I mean... well, that's harder to define. It's difficult to say where cartooning ends and realism begins. Basically, though, I'd say that anything anime-styled is cartooning.

I realise that some people will disagree with the definitions listed above, but please, realise that they're done for convenience. This is a topic about drawing styles, not semantics.

Right, now that's out the way, her'es the central point of the topic:


The anime style is overused by amateur cartoonists.


It's disappointing to see a technically beautiful picture let down by an overused style. Ever been to Neopets? Whenever they have a self portrait special in the gallery, ALL the pictures are anime. Some people have passed this off as by saying that the artists are just kids drawing anime because it's in vogue, but a lot of them are obviously done by very competent cartoonists. If you draw anime and nothing else, how much have you experimented with other styles? I feel that a lot of people just jump into drawing anime without looking at the alternitives. Now, I'm not trying to be superior or say that I'm a better artists. I realise that I need a lot of practice. I'm your average Joe schmoe cartoonist-in-training, but I have my own style. If I can get one, surely a lot of the anime artists I've seen can?

Now, I'm not saying this because I dislike the anime style. I wouldn't tell someone not to use a style simply because I personally hate it, I've been on the recieving end of that and I know it's a flashing neon sign of unproffessionality. I like the basic anime style, but I feel that it's grossly overused and there needs to be more variety. Similarly, while I don't like the style the human characters from Lilo and Stitch are drawn in, I commend the artists for trying something new. If a friend was choosing between drawing anime or drawing L&S-esque characters, I'd encourage them to take the latter option.

If you're interested in experimenting with other styles and maybe developing your own, then I suggest looking at a load of cartoons in different styles. Try to draw them all, then you'll get a good idea of what you can or can't draw, and appreciate things you never noticed before. Mix and match any elements you like. Try drawing the same character in different styles, and see what looks best.

Even if you don't do that, you could still go for a less saturated style. While a "serious" cartoon, as many aniem fans like, wouldn't go down well if the characters looked like Powerpuff Girls, but your average Disney movie has a style which is far less overused, and would work just as well as anime in a serious cartoon.

Now, I'm not saaying that ALL anime should be exorcised. If you've tried the alternitives and still feel that anime is the only stlye that works for you, then by all means, draw anime. If everyone took that approach there'd be far less anime. But please, be more open minded.

*pants* that was longer than I expected. Any thoughts on the matter?
 
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Well your entitled to your own opinion if you like, but thats the way things are, the Anime style is popular at the moment. But there are virtually unlimited substyles within anime, so its hard to get bored with the anime 'style' if you look around a bit. But to each their own.

Also early Disney moves spawned the anime style in the first place, and even tried to emulate it later in The Little Mermaid. I'm sure if you just reduced the size of the noses in Lilo&Stitch you could probably label that as an anime style as well.

Oh well.
 
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Thanks for not yelling. You have some good points. Yeah, there are a lot of posible substyles, but how many of them are actually being used?

Quite a few, I'd say. And I'm nto attacking all of them. Pokemon, as hated as it is by hardcore otaku, has a unique style, although a lot of people consider it to be an anime substyle (I personally believe it's pushing the definition, though). What I DO dislike, though, are the countless substlyes which are essentially variations on Sailor Moon (I know SM didn't start that look, but it's probably the best known example of it). Sure, you can draw a variation on SM, but why not draw a variation on, say, Black Cauldron?

If someone shrunk Lilo's nose it wouldn't look as similar to Sailor Moon as Yu-gi-oh does. Or Evangeleon. Or Medabots. Or... well, you get the idea.
 
Well I have several styles of my own and then I have anime styles. My anime style generalizes around a simplistic Gundam Wing, Pokemon, Sailor Moon (both anime and manga), Sonic, and Digimon. The problem with drawing anime is that obviously it is terribly abused and lacks originality when whatever style someone tries can be compared to a more professional version.
Asian styled art is bluntly more popular though because of the attractiveness of it. Give someone a Spiderman comic, and then something like an Eva manga and they're probably going to pick the manga because frankly, it looks nicer. Not saying that Americanized artwork is bad, just that it isn't quite as visually appealing to a lot of people. For instance, American artwork like Disney lacks detail. A bit more detail is always nicer than too little.
Now stop trying to convert everyone to Disney! Didn't you know they're trying to corrupt the minds of today's youth?
 
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A Disney-esque style could easily be converted into a more detailed form. I've seen plenty of artists make variations on, say, Sailor Moon that're far more detailed than the original.
 
... note: some Disney-esque styles are overused. Terribly.

I mean. C'mon. How many artists draw felines (and anything even remotely feline, sometimes) in Lion King style?

People like to mimic artists they admire, that's all. I like Fujisaki Ryuu, and used his manga work for inspiration. Doesn't make me any different from people who draw in JTHM-style because they think Jhonen Vasquez is the shiznit, does it?
 
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That may be true for cats, but for humans any Disney-style amateur cartoons (which I'll be henceforth calling "amatoons", because it's fun to invent annoying slang phrases) are vastly outweighed by the amount of anime-styled amatoons.

>>>People like to mimic artists they admire, that's all. I like Fujisaki Ryuu, and used his manga work for inspiration. Doesn't make me any different from people who draw in JTHM-style because they think Jhonen Vasquez is the shiznit, does it?>>>

Fair point. But a style being admired doesn't mean it's not overused, surely someone has OTHER styles they admire, and can mimic. And remember, I only recommended mimicking Disney (or whatever) if they can't develop their own style. And that's well within the range of many amatoonists.
 
I admire the realism style of Lassen but dang, I can't draw or color the way he does.
Some people will mimic styles they can do. Why, it is easier to draw Nickolodean than Warner Brother any day, maybe the reason why I see so many Powerpuff Girls and Rugrats in contrast to Daffy Duck. But people also draw what is popular and recent. I'll see far more Yu-Gi-Of fanart on side7.com than Pokemon because of how popular and recent it is. Two years from now, and barely anyone will draw it. And for some even more odd reason, kids these days love Japanese plot lines. So then what is not to like, and what is not keeping these people from drawing poor amateur rip-offs of Japanese shows?
 
My God, I love you.

I myself do refer to any style influenced by an anime series as being collectively an "anime" style. Well OMG, shoot me. Anime is a cultural phenomenon now, and since the style is very easy to pick up and adapt to, not to mention looks beautiful no matter what and is what is popular, it is most often picked up by beginning artists. Fine and dandy, except TONS of people draw in an anime style. While a lot of people can get it to look very unique, there is still that whole issue with /everyone/ drawing in the style... which is really a shame, as it makes all other styles just look like ripoffs of something, and anime is never acknowledged as being a ripoff of anything. If you have an original anime style, people won't look at your picture and ask if it's Ash Ketchum. It's a given - it's anime.

Myself, I tried the anime style and failed at it. Horribly. Decided it wasn't for me; took the road less traveled and went for a Disney-esque style instead. It's harder to learn, and there are more bumps along the road. For instance, I would be one of those artists Kauri mentioned that took to a Lion King influenced style to learn Disney... that has its own set of problems, as Lion King is not acknowledged as a style. There are tons of anime artists at my school, but I am the only 'Disney' artist - and I've been successful at keeping an original style that happens to be influenced by Lion King, but no matter what, for the life of me, I can never get away from the "Is that Simba?" comments. Disney influenced styles are a very lonely, unappreciated road. But people don't realize that you can be a ~very~ talented artist and have a style that isn't related to anime at all... I call it "western animation" style, and people can put a whole lot of feeling and character into western animation styled art.

Also I'd say western animation is just as limitless, if not much more, than anime art... you can have a really simple, cartoony style (say, Roger Rabbit or Emperor's New Groove), a style that's sort of in the middle (Treasure Planet is more realistic and detailed, but still cartoony), or more realistic (Titan AE would be a good example of that)... Titan AE has even been compared to a lot anime, because it's so detailed and made to look realistic.

And the fact is, if you live in the US, you're not going to get anywhere with an anime style unless you can build it into your own and are able to draw realistically. I know an anime artist a year younger than me who is exceptional at that. But if you want to be a professional anime artist, then you might want to consider moving to Japan... Disney, Dreamworks, or any of the related probably aren't going to be interested in making an anime styled film any time soon.

I could say a lot more on the subject, but I have a headache... just want to defend my style, yo. Western animation has all the problems of anime if all you want is to draw a style exactly like another, but at least it isn't quite as overexposed and has a LOT more flexibility...
 
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I think many people draw in an "anime" style because it's fairly easy to depict emotions with the large eyes and so forth, as opposed to the small eyes of, say, American comics.

I, for one, started drawing with stick figures when I was five, and improved by copying the kinds of art (mostly cartoons, of course) that I liked. When I first saw anime, I thought, "That looks cool!" and decided to incorporate some of the styles into my own artwork.

And naturally, when drawing fanart of anime characters most people will use anime-style drawings ^_^ lol...
 
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I mentioned in the original post that I developed my own style, so I'm posting a picture to show it to you. I know you can't post art for evaluation in this forum, but this is just a quick diagram I knocked up for a visual aid. As such, it's extremely crude. My real pictures are far cleaner, if you want to see them check the topic "looking for help with my drawings" on page 2 of the art cafe.

On the left hand side of the attatched picture is what my style looked like early on. You can see the anime influences; thr shape of the head, the nose (which would have had shading to represent the other half, but this is just a quick example), and the character I first drew had a full head of pink, spiky hair. The eyes, however, were my own creation, because I wanted a "trademark" in my style. That's not to say that they really stand out as different (most people probably won't even notice it), but I don't believe they're quite the same as anything else, although there are a good number of lookalikes. The second diagram is what my style eventually evolved into.The anime-ish noses (and, while you can't see them here, the hairstyles and open mouths) remain, but the head is now totally round and the mouth is up one side of the face, hallmarks of Western animation.

The kids I draw all follow the same template face-wise (the main differences being that girls have smaller mouths and two eyelashes on each eye, and Asians have eyes drawn differently). Adults have more variety, following the Ancient Laws of Cartooning (TM): round features look gentle, square features look tough, triangular features look cunning etc.

I slipped up considerably with that part of my style. When I first drew Nuada, one of the bad guys in my upcoming webcomic, I drew his head from scratch. The result was a mess. It loked sort of like a regtangle bent in the middle, with similar shaped eyes. I was never comfortable so after a while I decided to redesign him. I looked at a lot of villains from Disney movies and the like, and made some sketches of them. I then applied the style to a caractature of Rasputin (the original Nuada had a similar beard, and being an evil druid was a "mad monk" too, sort of) and the result was really quite pleasing, although I still need a bit more practice drawing him.

The bodies I draw, if you're wondering, are more-or-less proportionate on the adult characters, but on kids are far more out of whack, with oversized heads, hands and feet. Think Kingdom Hearts or the Sabrina cartoon.
 
Hm.

Even if I don't think a person's art is as good as it could be, I'm not going to tell the artist to try a new style because they might be 'better' at it (er, this is what it sounds like you're trying to do in your first post - you're probably just encouraging people to try new things, but it comes off as 'why are they wasting their time with anime style when they're much better as western-cartoonists' to me). Or because it's not as overused. If they -enjoy- drawing anime style or whatever, that's all that matters! *laugh*

Speaking only for myself, I only draw stuff because I like to. So I really don't mind (or, in fact, care) if I'm using a style that's been beaten to death, or where there's countless people who are better at it than I am. I like using an anime style, and - as a fanartist by nature - it's what most of the series I draw fanart for are in. And I'm far too lazy to try and convert them into some almost-but-not-quite-anime western animation style. Yanno. ^^;

I believe you could have the same sub-styles in anime art as you could in western animation. If you want simple, there's stuff like Crayon Shin-chan or Chibi Maruko-chan. Middle? Maybe Eva or CowBe. Realistic? Alot of shounen manga, or stuff like City Hunter (I... guess. Maybe).

But, not alot of people really experiment with anything but 'middle of the road' types of anime-art. So in that case, western animation really does have more variety.

But Tig is very right. Anime, while a nice style to mess around with, isn't something that you should plot to make a career out of drawing. Using it for enjoyment is one thing, but it'll most likely never top traditional animation here.

... I'm a little curious, though, what styles of western animation you're working from. "the head is now totally round and the mouth is up one side of the face, hallmarks of Western animation"? You're trying to pimp out a Disney-esque style, but as far as I know, Disney's animation never uses such crude 'hallmarks' (none of the animated programs I remember do, either). Faces can be circular, but they're never "totally round", and mouths are very rarely on a single side of the face. I realize this is supposed to be your own style, but I don't quite know where the basis is...

</disorganized rambling>
 
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>>>I'm not going to tell the artist to try a new style because they might be 'better' at it >>>

"Better at it" wasn't quite what I meant, I was thinking more along the lines of finding a style they enjoy more.

>>>If they -enjoy- drawing anime style or whatever, that's all that matters! *laugh*>>>

Yep. If they still enjoy drawing anime the most, I won't stop them drawing it.

But still, enjoying what you draw isn't everything. If you're drawing as a hobby, then it's fine -- you're just doing it for fun, so all that matters is that you're having fun. But if you put the pictures up on the Internet for comments, then you're obviously expecting criticism and differing opinions. If you're doing a webcomic then that's even more true. If you're drawing cartoons as a career, then you've got to pay attention on what the viewers (or readers) will want.

>>>You're trying to pimp out a Disney-esque style>>>

No, I only suggested Disney as an alternitive to anime, since it's usually on roughly the same level of realism, because at other boards people have countered my arguments by pointing out that, say, Evangelion wouldn't look good starring Bugs Bunny.

>>>Disney's animation never uses such crude 'hallmarks' (none of the animated programs I remember do, either>>>

Peanuts uses round faces, and the title characters of Kim Possible, Calvin & Hobbes and Hey Arnold have elliptical heads wider than they are tall, which is even less realistic than a round head. Oh, and I'd like to point out that round heads look better on my characters when they have full heads of hair =)

Regarding the mouths, you can see the effect on Pepper Ann and Angelica from Rugrats.

Pretty rare, then, but as far as I can tell more common than in Japanese animation.
 
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Western styles are varied, what makes them most noticeably western is the eye shapes. The eyes are usually almond in style, average sized, relatively proportioned to head. Bodies look more normal, heck, normal is what is nice to see every once in awhile. The western cartoons I watch most often is Recess and that X-men show... They're both western, just as is Scooby Doo and of course, Peanuts. But it does revolve around eye shape.
Now the recent 'fad' with western art is the perverting of anime. (This is where I'll bash Nickolodean (sorry if I spelt it wrong) and the Hana Barbara (sp?) for this.) Usually it is the overabuse of large eyes (insanely large eyes like those of the Powerpuff Girls), deformed bodies (Dexter's Lab), and often odd, far fetched plotlines (Invader Zim). I have heard people claim each as anime, which none are. But what astounds me is their popularity. The entire concept of either the plots or the appearances make them common drawing topics. And since Nickolodean is a western cartoon company, it can be considered as an alternative to anime.
What Disney has going for itself is the originality and creativity. A big difference and probably why most people will actually watch the movies in the first place.
The only way a person can make a career out of drawing is if they explore into realism and have a very open mind. Drawing just anime will never get anyone anywhere, nor will just western art. Its kind of a funny concept considering how many morons (pardon moi francais) think they will get far if they can just draw in one style or only a few. Many places in my province for one will not willingly accept people with unoriginal, or anime styles, and western animation has to be noticeably defined. And trust me, Disney is also not a popular topic either. I know one girl who is trying with it, and she is struggling to try to get somewhere with it.
And to add, sorry for ranting off into my own little world of nothingness.
 
"Batman: The Animated Series" could not be blamed for being unrealistic in terms of artwork. Neither could the 90s "Spider-Man" cartoon. When we've got our crap together, American animation is at least as good as theirs.
 
Western animation was more popular several years ago. Today anime overruns every television station to some extent. It may have the quality, but it definitely does not have the quantity or fan base.
 
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>"Better at it" wasn't quite what I meant, I was thinking more along the lines of finding a style they enjoy more.

Some people may not like drawing Disney-style, and since anime is hugely popular, you can obviously expect it to be popular and overused.

As you said later in your post, they may enjoy it more. You can't really stop them. My females' eyes are sort of derived from Pokemon, but adjusted to fit my style. They kind of look like Ash Ketchum's, but with that bottom line curved. My males' eyes aren't really that similar to those from any anime or manga I've seen/read, but they are sort of derived from a drawing book called "How to Draw Manga." However, this person probably didn't know nearly as much as she should have to publish a book on drawing manga-style.

I have a picture of the eyes attached as an example, though I think Mootwo already saw it.

Just making a quick point.

[/Hana's stupid opinion]
 
"Better at it" wasn't quite what I meant, I was thinking more along the lines of finding a style they enjoy more.

Ah, ah, my mistake then. I dunno. I guess I figured that people would stop drawing in a certain style if they didn't like it, rather than need to be told otherwise or have it suggested to them or whatever.

But if you put the pictures up on the Internet for comments, then you're obviously expecting criticism and differing opinions.

Oh, of course. But the thing is, people who want criticism want it relating to the style they chose. Not 'oh, this is a technically good picture, but it'd be alot better if it weren't anime'.

Peanuts is slightly different. It started out as a serialized comic. If you had said you were taking your style from comics, rather than 'animation' (which is generally Disney, Warner Bros., Nick, etc), that's different. Mind you, some people think of the two as separate sections of art.

... Batman was a -sexy- animated program. I loved that show... ;;_;;
 
The person who must have published the book obviously had no clue. I remember a "How To Draw Manga" book that was done by an american artist. Not only that but a friend of mine claimed that it was japanese, I had to convince her that indeed it was western style. Lack of knowledge is another problem with wannabes, drives me mad that some can't tell the difference.

And yes Batman was indeed a good show. I wish there was the old cartoon of Batman. How sorely I miss it.
 
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>>>I dunno. I guess I figured that people would stop drawing in a certain style if they didn't like it, rather than need to be told otherwise or have it suggested to them or whatever.
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Wish it was true. I've spoken to a good number of artists who've told haven't experimented -- they just jumped straight into drawing anime because their friends do. That's what this topic's largely getting at. Oh, and I didn't mean that they necessarilly DISLIKE anime, I just mean that they'd possibly enjoy it less the another style, but don't know because they haven't TRIED that style.

Right, I'm going to mention a major problem with everyone drawing so much anime that I avoided in the past since it just makes me sound like a bitter idiot, but I think it needs to be addressed: cartoon predjudice. I've lost count of the times I've posted my pictures on a board and politely asked for comments, only to be shot down in flames. Now, I expect critisicm (I'm definitely need practice), but I think you'll agree that comments such as "they're wholly contrived", "there's no hope for you" and "if he becoems a cartoonist it'll be a real shame" are going a bit far. Usually, when they're nice enough to tell me exactly WHAT they dislike, it boils down to my style. At some other boards, however, people give me a decent criticism, and for the most part ignore my style, or occaisionally comment on it being unique. Now, the former are populated largely by anime fans, and the latter populated largely by fans of Western cartoons. I don't think that's a coincidence. You could chalk it up to personal preference regarding styles, but note the close-mindedness of the members of the anime boards (which will go unnamed). A lot of them, if they gave advice, told me to draw anime. At those places, it was pretty much accepted that bad cartooning and Wester ncartooning are one and the same, and an ORIGINAL Western style is terrible drawing. Now, I might seem a bit hypocritical since I appear to be telling people not to draw anime, but remember that I'm telling people to EXPERIMENT more, and see if they can find a style they like more than anime. I experimented to see if there was a style I liked more then the face on the left side of the diagram, and there was: the style on the right. Not MUCH difference, I know, but a difference nonetheless. And unless there's more variety in the web's drawing styles, this xenophobic attitude will remain with us.

BTW, I had my share of detractors and the boards where American animation was popular, but they actually focused on genuine sloppiness (wobbly outlines, for example) rather than dismissing it all as non-anime junk.
 
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