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Mafia Fire in the Garden: Kanto Starters Mafia: Endgame, Bulbasaur Victory

Vote Zexy x infinity

He’s now so desperate he’s trying to hide my case in him and get me lynched. It’s funny actually.
Wow. Everyone, please see this (post 333) Then see my bold text above. Then see this again. Then above. Keep doing it until you ask yourselves... Who is desperate here? What is funny actually?
Ok, so the super bad Piko post was 268... When did Piko post again next? 339. Not holding being busy against him, but you all need to focus on the fact that A LOT has changed between 268 and 339, Piko even if busy, if scum, could have been informed by a buddy, or just skimmed the thread for like a few minutes getting to post this.

This should mean that between 268 and 339 so many things are going to change in his views. Compare and contrast his reads table (268) with what we have here...

Starts off with NAI small talk with Raven and ExLight. When he gets to a Caps point, he gets a bit too exclamation mark like. And what he suggests... That I give town more info on my visitor. This is what got him fired up, so much else in between but THIS is what he felt the need to emotionally ask about.

More NAI stuff, when does Piko get all capital letters again? When he gets to reply to Caps about his stuff being ironically called "incredibly profound". Not that the defense itself is substantial, just shouty.

340 just tells us he will be back to say more... Let us just consider he conveniently avoided all the talk about Mido and I etc. his first post after so long was just trying to give NAI "content" with some middle activity ones and trying to emotionally pressure Caps to take the vote of him.

... 346 is him again, the thread had not been super active for a while. More meta NAI stuff, some shade on me, trying again to make the case between him and me related to my visitor. Suggests that Caps and I are buddies. Says that it might look like an OMGUS but he wants Zexy/Caps wagons. Unvotes Snowy but avoids to commit on either Zexy or Caps...

Perhaps because he expected me to get afraid that if I do not get into his good graces, I will get ganged up on? I feel like he kinda wanted me to go back on my promise to not vote Caps today, hoping that I make the Caps case for him? Like, he was desperate to get an active lynched before he flips and it is too late as we would both look super good after his scum flip?

357, yet another Piko Raven NAI interaction. Piko Raven and Piko ExLight has LOTS of those.

358, Piko desperate to learn more about Jamie. Kinda tries to town lean ExLight, not sure why, it is very WIFOM. Outright votes me because I made it clear I also suspect him, Caps did not back out either, even if Mido is town, Piko has to use her vote on me to tie and hopefully survive.

362, LICH makes a very flimsy case to also vote for me, only focusing on one random completely hypothetical thing I said about Snowy. @LICH KING when I said "feel free to lynch Snowy and if he flips mafia, lynch me next" this was just a reply to Mido who insisted that I am buddies with Snowy. I did NOT mean that I suspect Snowy. If anything I was like "Mido please commit to this, if you are right I quit, but if you are wrong I am clear and you will be held liable for this". I did not actually advocate for a case on Snowy.

Yeah OK 365 is a Mido post and it is huge, gimme a break.
So, 365 starts with Mido adressing Piko. Except Piko never once adressed Mido first, despite having very similar ideas to her. Consider me and Caps. I have said like dozens of times I agree with him. He holds me liking his posts too much against me, calls me a parrot. Piko avoids any sort of similar interaction with Mido, being seen as a parrot by her.

Anyway, Mido susses me because my reads list was too much of "if X is town/scum, then Y vice versa". Which unfortunately is how I tend to work earlier in the game. I cannot envision single scums, only "worlds" where potential pairs/triplets are scums. But now? Almost all my "worlds" are about who Piko is buddies with. Mido, LICH, Raven, ExLight, wissen or inactives (gentle)? Pretty much everyone except Caps and Snowy slot and Jamie could be potential buddy with how WIFOM is applied. Yes even ExLight despite tying the votes for now.

Mido also calls me out that I said Piko tries to look active but is NAI with "yeah but half the thread does it". Uhm, no. Caps is not, subs are trying to catch up, inactives meh, Raven/Ex/LICH admit they could do better... Only Piko tried to act like he believes he is doing enough.

That is it, Mido asked me to quote why I think Piko case on Snowy is sloppy. To this, @Mint Elv , I say, please look on my analysis on Piko post 268. 90% of it is just random stuff, but the end result is a Snowy vote out of nowhere. If that is not sloppy, what is it?

Mido accuses me that Caps "has been my little buddy". Uhm, no, yeah we agreed on jaison and Piko but we have also shaded each other a lot. But yeah after a Piko scum flip he will be my top town read. Cannot say the same about you, unfortunately.

Again, see what I said to LICH. I did NOT suspect Snowy, all I said is that if you are SO sure Snowy and I are buddies, why not lynch him first? You would be policy lynching a person who does not contribute as much, if he is scum, you would be right in ganging up on me next. If you are not willing to commit to it, drop it instead and suggest other wagons. For some reason both LICH and you conveniently took that as "Woah Zexy read Snowy scum before and town now lynch!". Uhm, no.

Also when did Raven and explicitly PIKO "buy" the "BS" I am "vomiting"? Piko if anything agreed 100% with you, except, you do not acknowledge that either.

375 @ExLight I am not vehemently defending the wissen slot. In fact I can envision a world where Piko and wissen are buddies right now. I do not give that world the most probability, but this is an idea I could get behind. I would still look at Mido/LICH first and foremost after a Piko scum flip though, then Raven, you not really if you stick to the wagon and the lynch is achieved with one vote difference.

... And with this I am caught up. Phew!
Wait no, Mido posted again while I was doing this huge project

392, 394, 397, 398 are all good stuff from Mido. Unfortunately it might be her deciding Piko has messed up too much and must be bussed.

Not a fan of 403, feels like Mido trying to start a shade on Caps so that when Piko flips and I am too clear being his counter wagon, Mido can pressure Caps instead.

416 is NAI, could be town Mido actually seeing the logic in the Piko case or scum Mido trying to jump ship on the hard hate on me instead of Piko so that she can make the bus smoother.
Mido, could you please make clear if your 416 thought on Piko was influenced by my 404-onwards rundowns and the ExLight vote, or just what you caught up on until 403?
Ah ok, it is a Mido post. I am trying to tackle all those at once in the end, especially since at some point I saw her asking me to get more specific on Snowy, and I would rather see the entire Piko/Snowy/original accusation of me+Snowy as buddies again, before finding a way to TL;DR that.

For now I hope she is OK with the few points I made about Snowy in the general ISO so far, the "explicitly answering Mido" one is still gonna show up before phase end despite being busy I promise

Mido, could you please make clear if your 416 thought on Piko was influenced by my 404-onwards rundowns and the ExLight vote, or just what you caught up on until 403?
To answer these since I honestly didn’t read anything outside of you omitting half my quotes. I’ll restate my case on you later for others.

I ain’t reading your posts. I ain’t bothering with “here is x number.”

Give me links or quotes and then I’ll give your current posts the time of day but absolutely am I not wasting my time searching the thread. I have very little of it as is. Also won’t respond to you responding to me because again you omitted a lot of stuff I posted to make it look convenient for you again. Have a nice night I probably won’t be on again tonight. I’ll post some tomorrow unrelated to you.
Ok then, we agree to disagree. I might bother searching for specific quotes on all the points I have said involving you, but this is unfortunately not happening for 12 hours at least, maybe more.
Piko has taken a long while since his last post which was pretty bad too. He is buying time, knows the spot is tight, tries to think how to flip this and maybe strategise with buddies, while also hoping someone else will conveniently take the spotlight off him to something else
My apologies for not following up in a timely manner. I have been busy driving all over town and haven't had significant downtime to catch up as a result.

I'll do what I can catch up before heading to bed.
Sorry all, just too exhausted at this time. Hopefully I'll have something more coherent than it would otherwise if I stayed awake.
Yeah, I really wanna assume good faith, I know people can be busy... But this is also convenient.

Anyway, somewhat annoyed activity is still low in the very few hours I did sleep (busy weekend all over!)

Gonna be super busy starting in 45 minutes and for 3 hours (Axew CD in GO).
Very slowly catching up.
Had to be at work at 5am for inventory and I'm already done, but still have about 7 more hours of work.

personally im not a charmander myself but how dare you, he's a friend.

Post sounds a bit odd. Like "personally I'm not mafia wink wink nudge nudge". Just seems weird to clarify that.

So... uh.... It's been a long time since I've played a mafia game... Let's see if I remember how it goes. First post is required to be a joke vote, right?

Vote: Zexy
Hello there.

From my previous slot. Not a great post either. Seems like an unnatural entrance. Knowing the role helps with this post but can see why it would look scummy.

Hmmmm let's go with

LICH KING because they didn't answer my "Hey, how's it going?"
wissen schaftler because they're FROZEN in SCUM CHAT
Pikochu because I wanted to pick someone else that has played mafia on Bulbagarden before that had already checked in

This post doesn't feel like town caps to me. Just feels a bit...forced? I know it is because the question of who's scum that early is impossible to answer, but I dunno just feels like it comes from a scum Caps mindset.

At this point I think it's not too unreasonable to expect jaison krasta and wissen schaftler to not show up anymore, they haven't even confirmed their roles despite being online since game start.

Not exactly my style, but as of now I'm fine with killing one of them, the first half of the day is over and it would be kinda stupid to D1 lynch among those who actually play given the circumstances.

Not a huge fan of this Raven post either. Doesn't have the natural towny sounding Raven tone that I expect from him. Feels like a copout to lynch inactives d1, which is more of a scum move.

Just saw that, hi!

To be fair that could also be exactly the kind of logic scum would use as long as they know all the inactives are not part of their faction.

Sorry for not posting more earlier, messed up the alerts probably, will try to get them right now.
Like this post from Zexy because I had the same thought.
Vote : jaison krasta

I prefer this one over wissen, because even if the original idea from Raven is town, Piko could be scum with jaison as buddy and try to get the votes on wissen instead of them

Not saying that Piko IS scum, but on the off chance he is, this is slightly better than a random coin flip 50-50
And then this post is more iffy to me. Goes against the idea of lynching inactives in the previous post and then votes one.

Granted the reasoning isn't awful, but also applies to him.

I want them to show up before I choose between them, but I will change my vote based on what they say

This post from gentlefeather looks a bit better. Like the not just jumping on an inactive.

Stalling is never a good idea for town, No Lynch in the morning just lets scum kill who they want in the night, player count is still dropping in an anti-town way. Not to mention it leads to a complacent town that does not try to scum hunt too hard which makes it harder to make future reads and scum easier to coast along.

Also like this post from Zexy. Good town mindset.
Sorry for having been rather absent so far during D2 guys, I got my shit together for the most part now.
Here's what I noticed during my reread of D2 and what I wanted to add/ask (I might split this over several smaller posts because navigating in big posts with lots of quotes can be a pain on mobile).

LICH KING also had the most interesting interactions with wisser, dawndusk, and jaison early on, mostly jokes but they kinda felt comfortable joking on each other.
Except they didn't? Wissen approached LICH on a weird way and the only reaction LICH showed was rather weirded out given their reaction. Their only reaction with
A particularly bad troll that tried to do inside jokes with jaison and LICH
How do you know that? Especially after calling wissen a troll yourself? What makes you think that they are involved in any way with each other and not just randomly picked by a troll?
and all of them had lots of interactions with dawn dusk.
This is wrong, LICH interacted literally one time with dawn dusk and the others never did.
the question is "why kill dawn dusk" and I still feel like you are the one person who had the most reason to kill dawn dusk instead of someone more active
You state that, but given the history of interactions between the two of them, I don't see anything that supports this statement?
The fact that you pull this off and keep throwing shade at LICH while presenting "facts" that are... inaccurate to say the least.

Maybe Zexy is scum himself
Is this really just a joke or are you hiding an actual thought behind a joking appearance?

I don't know if there's anything that we can go off with the RVS phase any more with Day 1.
I feel like it's never a good idea to dismiss events, there's almost always a chance that one notices something while re-reading at a later point. I'm aware that this is a game philosophy difference, but I still felt like commenting on it.

Probably going to change again, but I think LICH is the kind of frustrated that won't give us more to work with if town and I would rather not give others a chance to tunnel there yet. Maybe later in the phase.
Why would we, I don't see much of a reason to kill LICH atm?

Did you really just say that half the town could be scum?
(Weak) tinfoil, but.. Was this a slip,

Half the game, not half the town.
followed by a correction

Stop sleep posting, Snowy.
and a cover up justification?
Not a reason too immediately lynch the slot since it's mostly a really weak tinfoil, but I felt like still mentioning it.
And - regarding the dawn dusk kill, like Zexy said, the most interesting interactions with dawn dusk happened between LICH/jaison/wissen (all of which you want to ignore since it was prior to wissen being subbed out) and between myself and dawn dusk
Same thing I told Zexy earlier in this post
Also, why does no one mention the interaction with Pikochu?
That you could kill dawn dusk to make me think LICH is leaning scum.
But why? I still don't get to what makes you think that. Why would anyone have a reason to think that you would think LICH is scum if dawn dusk gets killed? On what base should anyone connect LICH and dawn dusk? I'm sorry if I sound kinda degenerated but I just can't comprehend how "dd gets killed -> LICH sus" has any foundation, they had a minor interaction about the everstone and that's about it. LICH even asked you themselves - why would they kill dawn dusk? For what reason?
This whole thing starts to feel oddly obsessive at this point if it didn't earlier already
Also you sus Caps for killing dawn dusk to make you think LICH is sus - after checking the interactions with dawn dusk, I feel like if anything it would feel more like someone is incriminating Caps, given that dawn dusk said

There's no need to depict words over this stroll, So how did you predict that one coming,
  • Did you slip your tongue on frozen ice
  • Or do you have an instinct similar to wissen schaftler to predict the unpredictable
  • Or are you both accompanies
Now, Hey FAN give a reasonable reply.
so it would rather look like caps shutting down someone who's susing him (and this scenario itself is already ridiculous but at least it would be (kinda) reasonable) than LICH killing dawn dusk imo.

I also wouldn’t be surprised if him and snowy are scum buddies with how they are acting.
Your thoughts on my tinfoil? XD

You know what, I suggest we make Mint Elv and Snowy the major wagons for today.
If Snowy flips mafia, feel free to mislynch me next, I will show no objections.
Looks like bus+wifom gambit or scum trying to get town cred via a safe town flip, if anything I'ld like to reverse the order and even then I'm not really after snowy, not enough to go by from my pov.

Another option for major wagons is Pikochu and Caps. If Piko is town, Caps has to be next.
I don't like this at all, feels like scum trying to orchestrate two town lynchs

bruh I told you that a shit ton of 1-votes are not going to get us anywhere but you were all like "pressure is best when the votes are equal and spread out" wtf
Fair point

FMPOV as town your arguments make sense, but if this leads to lynching wrong twice, I have to reconsider if you are subtly guiding me where you want to.
...what? He's already stated multiple times that he thinks it's weird that you seem to piggyback him, how is he guiding you if he calls you out for following him?

Whereas I think scum is more likely to look for approval and ask questions before making a decision so that in the case it is a miselim it's not entirely "their fault."
So what are you thoughts on Zexy asking you about who you want to be the lynching wagons then?

my idea that scum Caps could have set him up does no longer need that flip to prove or disprove
The way I see it, it never needed it to begin with. Again I'm wondering how this idea even developed.

Also I legit forgot Exlight is in the game.
How can you forget about someone as wonderful as him :bulbaLove:

Scum lean, mostly because of the dawn dusk kill and now also because he is conveniently ganging up on me with an OMGUS to make the votes 3-2 and hopefully save Piko.
Again, explain me how these two things are logically connected by the single interaction about the everstone (or point out what I've missed, maybe I'm completely overseeing a detail and totally making a fool out of myself the whole time), and given that's pretty much the only reason you are building a case on them I can kinda understand their reaction.

Forcing reads is no good either. They’re superficial then. Not everyone needs to do reads. Some people like doing them some don’t.
I absolutely hate doing reads and read lists, and every time I'm asked for them I already know beforehand that I'll look more sus afterwards.

305, not a huge fan of Raven voting Jamie here.
OK, so I'm sus for following a suggestion that was originally made by you? Can't find your OG post in that regard, but I know that Caps addressed this at some point, see below:

you were all like "pressure is best when the votes are equal and spread out"

VOTE: Zexy

I feel like you're twisting things (like the accusation of Caps possibly guiding you), I have the impression that you try to direct the wagons, and I don't like the whole LICH thing at all (although I'm willing to change my stance on the last point if you manage to elaborate how the dawn dusk death has the potential to incriminate LICH more than anyone else).
Ok I did not want to make this a meta argument because it is not technically part of the game but before it, yet I have to make it now

The reason I believe LICH, jaison, wissen and dawn are related starts as soon as the signup phase. Three new accounts with few posts, plus an old one that said "I was insisted by my friends to join", except despite being an old account I have not seen them around playing mafia before, their friends could not have been the old regulars... So who are their friends? Probably the people who show alongside them, have similar username formatting as them, similar posting style, the ones that joked with each other early on... Yeah I feel like all those people knew each other before the game started. And if they knew each other, they also would know that if one of them is scum and acts jumpy, the other would know.

jaison was lynched, wissen was subbed, conveniently dawn dusk was also killed... Who is now left without any acquintances that would get reads on them? LICH.

Problem is, I thought Caps was also smart enough to catch on to this connection and stage it too.
This kind of argument is called "angleshooting" in other communities and it is somewhat frowned upon. There is no consensus on it if is fair or not. Problem is, it also works. So the idea is that you just say "you have a hunch" and hope town catches on. And I feel like a few people who did not question me hard about LICH did catch on. The rest, not so much.

In fact, in a d1 where we had so little to work with, watching those four interact was the single best thing that could have been done. Which is why when I saw Raven suggested a lynch on either jaison or wissen, I knew I had to jump on this opportunity. Get people to commit to this. Problem is, wissen was subbed out and the strat fell flat for a while. But then dawn dusk was killed and I was like super sure that was related and the "hunch" came back with a bang early D2
Why feel the need to say you’re not charmander? Why would anyone openly admit to it?

And how does that benefit town? What information do we glean from killing an inactive? A small chance at hitting mafia? Why not just no lynch instead? Get the same amount of info without actually losing any town members.

Mind melded with Mint this whole post. She said everything I thought/said before I even got to this point.

Unvote: Weissen

My vote has served its purpose for him to at least post. Though I'm not sure if there's anything I can say anything about this. Will post a follow up. Just don't want to forget to unvote.

@Mint Elv - What I meant was that I voted for an inactive just so that we have some content, any content to look at. I would have kept my vote on otherwise if the active didn't post anything.

Don't like the unvote right after there was some pushback about the voting inactives idea.

And if both are town? Where’s your info? What do we go into day 2 with?

Again what would that give us?

Why would you purposefully mislynch over the possibility of dead town subbing into those slots and making better use of them?

Again, mind melding. Mint is my mafia twin.

This post is funny, but also pretty good. Because it feels like Raven didn't genuinely consider that idea and now realizes that it makes sense.
But why would scum!LICH do this
Why should we lynch Jaison Krasta, when clearly Wissen has no proof...

And we aren't even sure that Wissen is a filthy Char... Mafia..
...if they could've just stayed quiet and allow the mislynch to happen or even go on and support it?
Because they wanted jaison ded before jaison could tell they do not act like their usual self?

That is like my whole point lol
Outright supporting it could have rubbed dawn dusk the wrong way, if LICH is mafia and knows both wissen and jaison are town, why support the case that is actually flipping? Supporting the other and being like "see I told you so" works better. Either way one person they would not want in would be out by phase end.
But they never supported either wagon, they pretty much stated that voting Jamie seemed like the worse idea out of the two and that even a wissen lynch would be kinda hasty at the time.
So why would scum!LICH divert the attention from the jaison and also point out that lynching wissen might also be a little rushed?
Actions speak louder than words imo. It was pretty safe that only jaison wissen or at worst a tie was an option at that point. Besides who said Jamie could not also be town. LICH had nothing to lose there if scum.

Anyway, I am not as sure about the LICH case as the Piko case. LICH is something I would only bring up again after the Piko flip and it will be based on interactions with Piko that time, not meta stuff
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