Fixing up the Grass type

[Envoy]

Similar to the Poison type thread.

The Grass type is one of the weakest types in all of Pokemon despite being a Starter type and being one of the most populated ones.

They have five weaknesses: Fire, Flying, Bug, Poison, Ice

Only four (albeit all very useful) resists: Grass, Water, Electric, Ground

They're resisted by a whopping seven types: Grass, Fire, Steel, Bug, Poison, Flying, Dragon

and they aren't immune to anything.

If that wasn't enough, almost all of their assets are eclipsed by generally stronger types (Water, Electric, etc).

No wonder Grass Starters tend to be the least popular choices in their respective generations.

So, what would you do to balance out the type chart and make the Grass type more viable?

What I would do is remove their Ice and Flying weaknesses. Some plants live (and thrive) in cold environments, others, rightfully wither and die during winter. Since some plants thrive in cold environments and others die, I think Ice should be neutral to Grass.

Birds nest on trees. If they didn't, predators would have a party with them. Birds need plants to survive, but at the same time, they eat berries use leaves and twigs for their nest. Thus, Flying should be neutral to Grass (this means it does not resist it either.)

I'd also remove the Flying, Steel and Bug resists and turn them to neutralities. Why? For no other reason than balance. Why's Psychic strong against Poison? Why's Bug strong against Dark? Exactly.

If you want an elaboration, birds and bugs need plants to survive, weather it be as a habitat or for protection, but also eat these things. Thus they should be hit neutrally by Grass. "But, by that logic, Bug should be offensively neutral/strong to Grass just like the Flying type." Well, it's called balance.

As for Steel... I got nothing. It's pure balance. It nerfs the Steel type a little (but not enough to lose it's niche as the definitive defensive type) and buffs the Grass type a lot. Win-win.

This would leave Grass with three weaknesses: Fire, Bug, Poison

Four resists: Grass, Water, Electric, Ground

And only resisted by four types (which isn't broken but still better than seven): Grass, Fire, Poison, Dragon

 

[Eye_Kan_Fly]

I don't really think any of the types should be changed at all, although I suppose it actually may help if Dragon and Flying removed their resistances to Grass.

Otherwise I think the entire type system is actually very good. In Gen I it was broken, but now I don't really think any type is any more uber or broken compared to the others (they're only better/weaker in terms of the pokemon and moves offered in that specific type. For example Water has the widest variety of pokemon and moves to offer...they need to stop making water pokemon)

 

[Marik]

Try growing Grass on a Steel beam. Just sayin'.

 

[Articwolf10]

Similar to the Poison type thread.

The Grass type is one of the weakest types in all of Pokemon despite being a Starter type and being one of the most populated ones.

They have five weaknesses: Fire, Flying, Bug, Poison, Ice

Only four (albeit all very useful) resists: Grass, Water, Electric, Ground

They're resisted by a whopping seven types: Grass, Fire, Steel, Bug, Poison, Flying, Dragon

and they aren't immune to anything.

If that wasn't enough, almost all of their assets are eclipsed by generally stronger types (Water, Electric, etc).

No wonder Grass Starters tend to be the least popular choices in their respective generations.

So, what would you do to balance out the type chart and make the Grass type more viable?

What I would do is remove their Ice and Flying weaknesses. Some plants live (and thrive) in cold environments, others, rightfully wither and die during winter. Since some plants thrive in cold environments and others die, I think Ice should be neutral to Grass.

Birds nest on trees. If they didn't, predators would have a party with them. Birds need plants to survive, but at the same time, they eat berries use leaves and twigs for their nest. Thus, Flying should be neutral to Grass (this means it does not resist it either.)

I'd also remove the Flying, Steel and Bug resists and turn them to neutralities. Why? For no other reason than balance. Why's Psychic strong against Poison? Why's Bug strong against Dark? Exactly.

If you want an elaboration, birds and bugs need plants to survive, weather it be as a habitat or for protection, but also eat these things. Thus they should be hit neutrally by Grass. "But, by that logic, Bug should be offensively neutral/strong to Grass just like the Flying type." Well, it's called balance.

As for Steel... I got nothing. It's pure balance. It nerfs the Steel type a little (but not enough to lose it's niche as the definitive defensive type) and buffs the Grass type a lot. Win-win.

This would leave Grass with three weaknesses: Fire, Bug, Poison

Four resists: Grass, Water, Electric, Ground

And only resisted by four types (which isn't broken but still better than seven): Grass, Fire, Poison, Dragon

Grass typ edoesn't need fixed it does 4x Damage to Water/Ground Water/Rock and Rock/Ground (Which is an extremly common type) And IT resists Earthquake and SR which are extremly common moves


And of course it wouldn't hurt Fire that much Grass burns Flying types well... fly And ICe type is easy Plants die when it gets to cold so no keep the weakness to Ice.

Dragon is SUPOSSED to be extremly resistent they are DRAGONS. And Steel are Taks the resists a lot of other types

And Grass type starts are actually popular (Sceptile I think is the moist popular Gen III starter and Tsujura seems to be the most popular Gen V starter)

 

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Well, all I can think of is removing the Flying weakness.

 

[winstein]

Grass is a weird type in the ranks. It is not the worst offensive type (Poison is the worst in that category, Bug has few high-powered moves with even fewer Bug Pokemon getting them, Steel is not so exploitable an attacking type) and not the worst defensively (Ice has only one resistance and four weaknesses, Rock also has five weakness which are more exploitable, Fire has three prominent weaknesses), yet it is the worst overall, because the types mentioned has some redeeming factor to it (Poison is a great defensive type, Bug has few weaknesses, Steel has lots of resistances, Rock is a great physical offensive type, Ice and Fire are both great special offensive types), while Grass doesn't have the same beneficial redemption as others. The only redemption is immunity to Leech Seed.

That being said, I think one of the ways to make the Grass type better is introducing a status ailment that Grass is immune to, not counting Leech Seed for that matter, and making it an advantage also. I am thinking of a "Flu" status, which lowers both attacks by 20% and makes the opponent lose part of their HP if they don't attack that turn. This major advantage would put the opponent in a tough position, because both of the effects are disadvantageous for the opponent.

The type chart could have a little tweak also. This is a tough one, because some of the types might require the resistance to make them good. I would rule out Fire, Poison, Bug, Grass and Steel for offense. Flying and Dragon could go without the Grass resistance, although another type should adopt that resistance for that matter for Dragon. Defensively, I would rule out Fire, Poison and Bug. I am hesitant to neutralise Ice because Ice is not a good defensive type, so this will make life worse for them, but still...my final decision on type chart changes to do that are:
- Dragon and Flying would take neutral damage from Grass moves.
- Ice is neutral to Grass as long as Ice is also neutral to Steel as well, to balance the weak/resist from Ice moves
- Flying attacks are neutral to Grass moves

 

[Articwolf10]

- Dragon and Flying would take neutral damage from Grass moves.
- Ice is neutral to Grass as long as Ice is also neutral to Steel as well, to balance the weak/resist from Ice moves
- Flying attacks are neutral to Grass moves

Dragons are supossed to be resistent they resist Water and Fire also.

Steel is the main defensive typing

Ice type should even be questioned plants die when it gets to cold simple

Flying types build nest out of plant material and eats seads... so that explains the weakness and Fire doesn't need to be said

And Grass isn't that bad an offensive type Rock/Ground is a common type and Grass is thge only type to be 4x's strong to it not including Water/Ground and Water/Rock which are also 4x's weak to grass

 

[Envoy]

Dragons are supossed to be resistent they resist Water and Fire also.

This I agree with

Steel is the main defensive typing

And will remain that way even if it doesn't resist Grass or Ice. It would still resist ten types. It would still only be weak to three. The difference is that now four types are neutral to it instead of two. See? Still the main defensive typing.

Ice type should even be questioned plants die when it gets to cold simple

There are some plants that thrive in cold environments, y'know. So, no, it's not "simple."

Flying types build nest out of plant material and eats seads... so that explains the weakness and Fire doesn't need to be said

I agree with Fire, but without trees, birds won't have a safe place to nest, making them easy targets for predators. Birds need plants, not the other way around. Again, not simple.

And Grass isn't that bad an offensive type Rock/Ground is a common type and Grass is thge only type to be 4x's strong to it not including Water/Ground and Water/Rock which are also 4x's weak to grass

Is this your best argument? Grass is lucky to hit Water, Rock and Grounds super effectively, yes, but there are a majority of types that resist it. Who cares if it hurts Onix? It's quad resisted by Skarmory, Salamence, Dragonite, Charizard and others. It's regular resisted by Steels, Fires, Flyings, Poisons, Bugs, Dragons and itself. Anything with any one of these types (read: THE MAJORITY OF ALL FREAKING POKEMON) will take, at best neutral damage from Grass. Compare that with the Fire, Water, Electric, Ice or Flying types offensively. Do you see the flaw in your logic yet?

You're oversimplifying matters.

 

[Ivysaur]

Thank goodness this was brought up.

Articwolf, I had already argued against all your points here and here. Why would you bring them back up again if I had already proven them wrong?

 

[Rakarei]

Remove Steel and Flying's resistances to Grass.

Remove the Flying weakness.

Up Petal Dance's power to 120.

Give Grass a physical and a special priority move.

That should do it.

 

[V Faction]

I feel like I'm coming into a conversation late.

Change/Remove 1 Offensive weakness and 1 Defensive weakness and I'd say you're golden. As weird as it sounds, making Steel take neutral damage from Grass feels like the proper thing to do. That way, 3 of the 4 elemental types do neutral damage to it while the weakness to Fire isn't tampered with at all.

Maybe throw in a defensive resistance to Steel while we're at it. Not exactly a huge game changer for either of the types, but a small push.

Not sure I feel about removing stuff like the Flying and Ice weaknesses. Steel manages to have a ton of resists but still has key weaknesses (Fire, Ground, Fighting). Maybe making Grass with a similar setup would be the better solution. Imagine if you tossed in a Rock resist along side the Steel resist.

 

[Orion-Sama]

Some plants live (and thrive) in cold environments, others, rightfully wither and die during winter. Since some plants thrive in cold environments and others die, I think Ice should be neutral to Grass.

Some, not all. Type Combinations would cover the few plants or plant-merged Pokémon capable of taking neutral damage from Ice. Examples, Ludicolo and Abomasnow. Might not make much sense in terms of logic, but as it is, most plants are "weak" to winter, and whither away.

Birds nest on trees. If they didn't, predators would have a party with them. Birds need plants to survive, but at the same time, they eat berries use leaves and twigs for their nest. Thus, Flying should be neutral to Grass (this means it does not resist it either.)

Flying isn't just "birds". It's also wind. Strong winds rip plants and trees from the ground, which most of them need to live. I agree about removing the resistance, though.

I'd also remove the Flying, Steel and Bug resists and turn them to neutralities. Why? For no other reason than balance. Why's Psychic strong against Poison? Why's Bug strong against Dark? Exactly.

I agree with Bug, and with Flying as I said above. However, Steel wouldn't make sense. As it is, the vast majority of Type match-ups choose making some sense with reality over balance. The exceptions are few and far between, just as those you mentioned. Plus, when it comes to abstract concepts such as Psychic or Dark (Evil), it's much harder to make sense. Even then, I can explain Bug being strong against Dark in the same way they resist it and in the same way they're strong against Psychic: Their singular minds are too undeveloped to be aware of the concept of "evil" or be fazed by the mischievous works of most Dark Moves. They can also have hive minds, which explains why Psychic would be overwhelmed and distraught. So yeah, even if you have to extrapolate to a point, most of the match-ups make sense.

As such, it makes sense for Grass to be neutral against Flying and Bug, as there isn't anything inherent to neither of them that'd make them resistant. At least I can't find a reason for Bug. Flying can be seen as being airborne and Grass, being ground-based most of the time, can't make its moves reach them effectively, which weakens them. It's the same explanation I can come with Flying resisting Fighting. Then again, Rock is also ground-based for the most part, and Flying is weak to it... so yeah.

However, Steel makes no sense. Only very strong plants would be able to damage metal (As in, solid metal), and such damage would usually take years. So yeah. There'd be a sufficient reason for this if we focus in the "Elemental" nature of Grass, though. Dragon resists all 4 "Elemental" Types (Fire, Water, Electric, Grass). Steel, on the other hand, is weak to one (Fire), and takes neutral damage from two (Water, Electric), whereas it resists one (Grass). So it could have some basis in this regard. Unfortunately, it wouldn't make sense "naturally", as I pointed out, whereas the others do (Fire melts metal, water can corrode it, and it conducts electricity). Conversely, I don't think Steel needs to be nerfed. Not with this in particular. Maybe when it comes to Poison, and even then, the nature of the vast majority of Poison attacks explain why.

In fact, I think only three Types need a fix: Poison (Offensively), Ice and Water (Both defensively). Personally, I think Grass is a great Niche Type with key resistances that make it stand out. Offensive makes no real difference either, as Grass Types are much better when focusing on supporting the Team by either crippling the opposition or helping their allies, which they do arguably better than any other Type with all their support Moves available (Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Spore, Aromateraphy, Leech Seed, Worry Seed) adding on to most Grass Pokémon's particular support options. As much as it might suck it can't hit plenty of Types, it could have it even worse (Like Poison). Plus, it's the only Type capable of screwing up the Water/Ground combination, one of the deadliest out there.

The only change I'd implement would be making Grass neutral against Flying and Bug, and make all families capable of learning Leech Seed normally (Why the Oddish family is still unable to learn it outside of special promotions is beyond me. =/ ). That's what'd make the most sense. I'd leave all else the same. It's not so much their match-ups as it is their Movepool in general which usually screws Grass Pokémon up. There's been clear improvement with that lately, though. So yeah. I don't think Grass needs as much help as Poison or Ice in their respective weak areas.

EDIT: Another thing that I forgot to point out is that Grass doesn't really has too much problems as a self-contained Type, but it's heavily eclipsed by other Types. Especifically, Water and Electric. Water hits two of three Types Grass can hit, and Electric deals with Water, and they're overall much better Types in terms of match-ups and glaring strengths. However, I think that's fine, as it gives Grass users more value, for they know what Grass can do which other Types can't really measure up to, and manage to use their few good points to their advantage. Anyone can pick and use Water and Electric Pokémon, whereas Grass Pokémon need more skill and are more of a challenge. I'd call them the middle point, or a "bad" Type done right. Unlike Poison, which was horribly screwed in most fronts.

 

[Articwolf10]

Thank goodness this was brought up.

Articwolf, I had already argued against all your points here and here. Why would you bring them back up again if I had already proven them wrong?

And you haven't Rad my posts after so No

Grass types are fine. Birds eat seeds winds break plants so that's why Flying is supereffective and Grass is 'Grounded' except for Tropias which is part Flying

Normal Plants die in Winter things like Pine Tree's (Snowver line) have a added type (Ice so snover isn't weak to Ice because it is part ice)

All the Weakness make sense for Grass (As I said Fire type has it 10x's worse then Grass because almost every pokemon in the meta-game has Earthquake and SR which Grass type resist

 

[reptile18]

I'd rather them create a bunch of volatile status effects that mess with the opponent (which I feel is the heart of the whole nature/grass theme). Moves that trap the opponent making them unable to attack physically. Moves that set a trap so that when the opponent tries to attack they get hit horribly (like a grass sucker-punch but maybe more deadly or less deadly but with poison, sleep, or paralysis). Or moves that cause sickness (a new status effect) like allergies. Or moves that heal itself if the opponent uses certain other moves (like water and poison heals it for 5 turns if the move is selected -- water for obvious reasons, poison as fertilizer). Other strategy based stuff.

 

[DCM]

grass pokemon are good at what they do, which is spreading status like wildfire. just because they're not the most defensive/offensive pokemon does not mean they aren't good. the only thing I'd like to see is some better attacks.

 

[Infinity Mk-II]

Personally, I think what we need is fire and flying to be severely hindered. It makes sense for them to be grass weakness, but right now they are omnipresent. Water needs hindering too, as most of them have ice attacks (which in turn also hinders ice as an actual type). All water types should stop learning ice moves, as the only thing they gain from it is... crippling grass type.

I agree on changing grass-flying relation removing the resistence though.

 

[V Faction]

grass pokemon are good at what they do, which is spreading status like wildfire. just because they're not the most defensive/offensive pokemon does not mean they aren't good. the only thing I'd like to see is some better attacks.

When referencing just the type? Yeah, they're a little behind. You're talking about moves and attacks, like Leech Seed, Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, and all of that. Those are all factors of what a Pokemon is based off of, not strictly the type, cause not every Grass Pokemon will get those same moves. Altering the type system would be a universal change for all Grass-type Pokemon.

If you want to talk moves though, imagine if there was a Grass-type Stealth Rock. "Wild Vines" or something equally as clever. The catch is you could only have one down. Given the number of Weaknesses/Resistances other types have to the Grass-type, would it be more popular than Stealth Rock?

 

[arcanine99]

Keep in mind grass types are strong against 3 of the most populated types

 

[FatKidLovesCoke]

ok, i have NEVER found grass types weak, thus there is nothing to fix. yeah, they have a lot of weaknesses and resistances. so? to tell you the truth, since you are, as i can see, a grass type supporter, so you even consider them strong then?

 

[Lt.]

the problem isn't the type, it's the purpose of the type.

the majority of common grass types are bulky wall types. and grass isn't good for that, the weakness to ice is a clincher. now, as a sweeper, grass has a bit more potential. several common resstainces, ground, water, electric, but, still, that glaring ice weakness.

course, grass also gets a million status moves.
honestly, they poison more pokemon than the poison type, they get sleep powder, spore, stun spore,as well as the ever common toxic.