Gen V Battle Changes/Misc. Changes

[Hawkings11]

Gen IV had an overly physical metagame, so I think that some equality to round out the battle system would be nice--that is, I think that there should be more special sweepers introduced that are tournament viable (and some should be able to beat Blissey). We've plenty of hard-hitting physical sweepers, but if we were given more special sweepers and more pokemon with access to Nasty Plot (perhaps as a TM), I think that it would create a more complex and interesting metagame.

Also on this note, walls could perhaps use some retooling. Think about it; in Gen IV everything hit harder because of the inclusion of two attack-geared choice items, and yet there was no equivalent to let pokemon wall better. Of course, a 1.5x boost to one of the defense stats in exchange for using only one move and losing access to leftovers is not something most players would go for. Perhaps there could be an item like life orb that spreads bonuses to both defenses, although to a lesser degree than 1.5x.

Lastly, could we get some non-uber auto-rain and auto-sun pokemon, too?

 

[V Faction]

Gen IV had an overly physical metagame, so I think that some equality to round out the battle system would be nice--that is, I think that there should be more special sweepers introduced that are tournament viable (and some should be able to beat Blissey). We've plenty of hard-hitting physical sweepers, but if we were given more special sweepers and more pokemon with access to Nasty Plot (perhaps as a TM), I think that it would create a more complex and interesting metagame.

It's a factor of the design scheme, really. If you think about it, some of the easiest stats to assign to an arbitrary Pokemon are based upon its look and description. What does a huge, bulky Pokemon with tough skin look like it'll be good at? Well, smacking something around with its claws and taking a few good hits, that's what.

They don't really design Pokemon to be... 'meta-game' worthy from the get-go. Those Pokemon are chosen by us, the fans. How the stats get assigned, who gets the most, and how the pieces fall into place isn't something we'll know any time soon. And I doubt GF themselves are that focused on such things to begin with.

Also on this note, walls could perhaps use some retooling. Think about it; in Gen IV everything hit harder because of the inclusion of two attack-geared choice items, and yet there was no equivalent to let pokemon wall better. Of course, a 1.5x boost to one of the defense stats in exchange for using only one move and losing access to leftovers is not something most players would go for. Perhaps there could be an item like life orb that spreads bonuses to both defenses, although to a lesser degree than 1.5x.

Items, on the other hands, do have a really good design process that seemingly backs the meta-game. It's kooky how strangely tied to that style of play some of them are.

Rather than have another 'Choice' item created specifically for walls and Defensive creatures, maybe they need to create a whole new stock of gadgets that prioritize survival over break-neck power. Maybe something that straight-up gives you a % of extra HP for a sacrafice of power in Atk or Sp.Atk. The berries that reduce the effectiveness of Type for a single attack are pretty nice right now. Why not have something akin to 'armor' for the Pokemon, which reduces damage from physical, special, or what-have-you attacks for a certain amount or a certain number of times (three hits and you're out!)?

Lastly, could we get some non-uber auto-rain and auto-sun pokemon, too?

I agree with this, only because I'm a big fan of Rain Dance teams and it's never been thrilling nor resourceful to use Kyogre.

 

[Hawkings11]

V Faction, I apologize for the delay in this response.

I agree with you on several points, although I think that I was using the term "metagame" differently than how it is understood by the playing community (my mistake).

I believe that the accepted definition of metagame might be something along the following lines:

1. The metagame is whatever strategies are employed by the majority of players, be it in character selection, item selection, movesets, stat modification, and responsive strategy (how the players 'play'); thus, if the majority of players utilized physical sweepers, the metagame would be rightly called 'physical,'

2. The metagame is whatever strategies are employed by players as a counter-response to the strategies most currently used to win; for example, if the metagame were indeed 'physical' and the majority of players turned to walls to counter this method of playing, than that counter-strategy is also part of that metagame.

Using this definition, it is clear to see that my expressed hope that we would get a more "balanced" metagame from the design team of the fifth generation is flawed; indeed, it is impossible. For, if the metagame is ultimately defined by player choice, then there can be no way for the game designers to be able to determine the metagame (although they can influence it to a degree by making certain strategies more viable than others).

What I meant by writing that I wanted a more balanced metagame was that I hoped that in the fifth generation we would see special sweepers with decent base stats, recovery moves, movepools, etc; basically, special sweepers with options and survivability. Of course, one could argue that the current special sweepers we have now could be just as effective as some of the current physical sweeper leads if they are only played correctly, and while that is true, I think that no one would disagree that it is easier to sweep with a pokemon who has the above survivability and options than it is to sweep with a pokemon who doesn't.

Also, I agree with your point regarding the design scheme in that they are likely create a design and then distribute what would be likely stats for the pokemon. However, I think it would be neat if Game Freak designed characters by analyzing the capabilities of their various characters and finding unoccupied niches or unexplored concepts and then explored those concepts.

I also agree with you on the rain-dance teams and sun-teams. I'm of the opinion that a more complex, diverse and customizable gameplay experience the more rewarding such an experience is. As such, without an OU auto-rain or auto-sun team (or auto-trick room or auto-gravity) there is an element of customizability (and therefore fun) denied to those who would want to use such strategies, while those elements are available to those who would want to use sandstorm or hail teams.

Lastly, your idea of armor is interesting. Perhaps to also improve the survivability of certain walls certain pokemon could have the option of having a different ability (I know that it's not relevant to walling, but imagine how much better Golem would be with Solid Rock. That's the thing I don't get either; thematically it fits quite well, and yet they only gave it to Rhyperior). I would not, however, advocate assigning over-powered abilities to everything, but rather those abilities that would be useful and fit in with the pokemon in questions' theme.

 

[Aggression]

no auto rain/sun, that would SUCK!!!

It would give teams in OU even MORE power. Rain dance teams are already uber-like. Sun... maybe, but rain would mess the metagame up SO bad.

Rain teams would be way too fast and strong. Sunny teams would be fast and have 100% heal moves all the time. In Ubers it's different. You usually don't want to pick OU or UU. Imagine if groudon/kyorge were legal in OU... hell. If they were to exist, they would have to be NU tier.

 

[Regiruler]

Lastly, could we get some non-uber auto-rain and auto-sun pokemon, too?

No. Those abilities are what makes them unique.

 

[Falconwing]

No. Those abilities are what makes them unique.

Not really. Not with Hippowdon, Tyranitar, and Abomosnow who have similar abilities.

 

[Keegman]

Items, on the other hands, do have a really good design process that seemingly backs the meta-game. It's kooky how strangely tied to that style of play some of them are.

I don't meta-game or multiplay or anything of the sort, so this will be brief:

In my time, I've come across many of the items you describe, and my initial reaction is quite often: "I can't even imagine what the point of this item is" or "The circumstances required for my pokemon to use this berry/hold item are so rare, is this really necessary?"


Then I started trying my hand at the Battle Frontier (something I've never done before I finally beat my Platinum game a month ago), and I joined this site. I learned what IVs were, and I learned that some people are very picky about their pokemon's natures, and I learned that certain teams are popular amongst competitive battlers, and that some very specific strategies arise in said competitive communities. Basically, I learned that there is a metagame at all.


And it was then that I could finally look at my Choice Specs or Choice Scarf or the berries that weaken a single super effective attack and say "Oh, THAT'S why this exists."


Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go work on completing my Pokedex.

 

[V Faction]

I believe that the accepted definition of metagame might be something along the following lines:

1. The metagame is whatever strategies are employed by the majority of players, be it in character selection, item selection, movesets, stat modification, and responsive strategy (how the players 'play'); thus, if the majority of players utilized physical sweepers, the metagame would be rightly called 'physical,'

2. The metagame is whatever strategies are employed by players as a counter-response to the strategies most currently used to win; for example, if the metagame were indeed 'physical' and the majority of players turned to walls to counter this method of playing, than that counter-strategy is also part of that metagame.

My definition or my own interpretation of the metagame has always been 'what is the currently accepted, highly established form of strategy or strategies in use among combatants at a given moment' So by my own thoughts, there will always be the 'desired' and the 'delivered' in the operation of the metagame. What you desire will either be delivered via some new constructed method or what is delivered may no longer be what you desire. By its very nature, it constantly changes.

When you get back to designing Pokemon from the ground up for the gamers who game on a meta-level, it all... sort of falls apart.

no auto rain/sun, that would SUCK!!!

It would give teams in OU even MORE power. Rain dance teams are already uber-like. Sun... maybe, but rain would mess the metagame up SO bad.

Rain teams would be way too fast and strong. Sunny teams would be fast and have 100% heal moves all the time. In Ubers it's different. You usually don't want to pick OU or UU. Imagine if groudon/kyorge were legal in OU... hell. If they were to exist, they would have to be NU tier.

As you can see, this is where it becomes a hindrance.

Who cares if having Pokemon with Drought and Drizzle would upset how things are being played currently. It's about how much fun a Pokemon can bring and how useful they can get. If anything, wouldn't that be an interesting change if you could have 4 potential weather effects be hilariously dominant in the game? People would be finding uses for Pokemon they probably never would've thought to use.

Then I started trying my hand at the Battle Frontier (something I've never done before I finally beat my Platinum game a month ago), and I joined this site. I learned what IVs were, and I learned that some people are very picky about their pokemon's natures, and I learned that certain teams are popular amongst competitive battlers, and that some very specific strategies arise in said competitive communities. Basically, I learned that there is a metagame at all.

Thaaaat's basically the jist of it. I personally don't have a problem with such large uses and variety. Sure beats everyone saying "Okay, give all my Pokemon Leftovers and lets do this"

 

[Hawkings11]

"Who cares if having Pokemon with Drought and Drizzle would upset how things are being played currently. It's about how much fun a Pokemon can bring and how useful they can get. If anything, wouldn't that be an interesting change if you could have 4 potential weather effects be hilariously dominant in the game? People would be finding uses for Pokemon they probably never would've thought to use."


That's my point exactly. The presence of non-uber auto-weather pokemon (one for each weather pattern) even if it was "broken" would force players to be creative; demanding creative problem-solving and extra consideration in team design. Teams that weren't viable would suddenly be viable and pokemon who weren't threats would suddenly become more threatening. The game can only become more interesting as more options are allowed players when it comes to creating and implementing various strategies.

Also, I understand your point regarding the metagame--I am reminded of Heraclitus' aphorism of the ever-changing river. Because the metagame constantly changes, considering it in static terms is ultimately pointless.

 

[Lusit]

Gen IV had an overly physical metagame, so I think that some equality to round out the battle system would be nice--that is, I think that there should be more special sweepers introduced that are tournament viable (and some should be able to beat Blissey). We've plenty of hard-hitting physical sweepers, but if we were given more special sweepers and more pokemon with access to Nasty Plot (perhaps as a TM), I think that it would create a more complex and interesting metagame.

Also on this note, walls could perhaps use some retooling. Think about it; in Gen IV everything hit harder because of the inclusion of two attack-geared choice items, and yet there was no equivalent to let pokemon wall better. Of course, a 1.5x boost to one of the defense stats in exchange for using only one move and losing access to leftovers is not something most players would go for. Perhaps there could be an item like life orb that spreads bonuses to both defenses, although to a lesser degree than 1.5x.

Lastly, could we get some non-uber auto-rain and auto-sun pokemon, too?

First of all, no. Auto rain and auto sun would break the metagame.

Secondly, a special attacker that could defeat Blissey with little setup would be uber very quickly. We have one of those, it's called Kyogre.

And lastly, the reason things 'hit harder' is the combined effects of more passive damage (sandstorm, hail, stealth rock), and Life Orb, not mainly choice items. It is a contributing factor, though.

 

[Angad]

First of all, no. Auto rain and auto sun would break the metagame.

Secondly, a special attacker that could defeat Blissey with little setup would be uber very quickly. We have one of those, it's called Kyogre.

And lastly, the reason things 'hit harder' is the combined effects of more passive damage (sandstorm, hail, stealth rock), and Life Orb, not mainly choice items. It is a contributing factor, though.

So what, let's break the metagame, I battle competitively myself, and I have to say, rain and sun auto-inducers would be AWESOME
.

 

[Regiruler]

Not really. Not with Hippowdon, Tyranitar, and Abomosnow who have similar abilities.

It's the fact that Groudoun and Kyogre are the only one's with Drought and Drizzle, respectively. It doesn't matter if other pokemon have similar abilities, just as long as they're (Groudon and Kyogre) still the only ones with their respective abilities.

 

[Lusit]

So what, let's break the metagame, I battle competitively myself, and I have to say, rain and sun auto-inducers would be AWESOME
.

No, how about let's not break the metagame.

 

[Angad]

No, how about let's not break the metagame.

Whether you like it or not, the metagame has been broken in every generation shift. Make as well create more potential with the next generation with the auto-(rain or sun) inducers.

 

[V Faction]

No, how about let's not break the metagame.

What you're really saying is "let's not break my metagame because I like it too much to change."