gender roles

[MajesticArcanine]

I'm bored and thought I'd try to see if I can get a conversation started.

BTW. I am a n00b and testing this community to see if I like it. Chaos told me about it. I'm good friends with her. I also recently joined outpostnine and really like it there. I have been going to TRHQ since I was 14. I'm 20 now. However, it's dead there and it kind of depresses me. So I'm trying to find new places I can post at and see if I can be a part of this new age BBS stuff. I'm very behind with the times... I like LJ mainly. I visit a ton of lj communities daily. Please don't refer to me as "MA" btwI dislike this. Be more creative XD. People of trhq call me "arky", "arcanine", occasionally "majestic".... and the noobs call me MA.

Anyway, moving past the introduction(I probably should have posted it in the introduction thread), I'd like to bring sociology, anthropology, psychology , feminist studies, and all that other stuff into play.

How do you think gender roles are socially constructed? What kind of sexism exist in todays society?

I'm asking these questions because I have never taken a feminist studies course and when women bitch about sexism I say "wtf is your problem. Shut the hell up. People aren't being sexist towards you! They are telling you to shut up because you're a feminazi!" Having this attitude has started some mild flame wars.... hah. I'm not an established internet troll. But I have been trolling and spamming in mild amounts since I was 13. If I actually end up staying, I'll behave here overall. : ).

I tend to disagree about sexism. I just belive NO ONE, no man especially, has EVER been sexist towards me in all my 20 years. If a man was visibly sexist towards me I would degrade him in an instant. I would humilate him and start a verbal war with him. However, I never have experienced serious sexism towards me. If I did, I proably wouldn't even know what it was. I would shrug it off say "man is that guy a retard!" and then just forget about it.

Question for ladies- what kind of sexism have you experienced?

For men- Have you ever been sexist towards a women? In what ways have you or your friends been sexist?

Discuss. Sorry if this topic was discussed in the past. I wouldn't know. I glanced over the threads and saw nothing like it where I looked(although I fail to see why threads are deleted past a month or so....)

 

[Mozz]

Women are different than men. Saying that gets you lynched.

 

[Jukain]

I have always tried my best to respect anyone, whether it be female or male. I always feel particularly bad if I offend a female in any way. I will gladly let you slap me on the side of the head as hard as you can. Also, this is a bit one-sided, there is sexism against males, too. It isn't that evident, but it's there.

While I'm here, I just want to apologize to any female I may have wronged, online or not. I am so sorry. I really want to one day be worthy of having a female companion to spend my life with. Please don't hate me.

Don't take that the wrong way, I really don't mean any harm to anyone.

 

[MajesticArcanine]

Women are different than men. Saying that gets you lynched.

yes, that's nice, however not in the least witty or intelligent.

By default, you fail.

 

[ChaosRocket]

I think it's kinda sexist how society in general just really expects you to act "girly" and then if you don't, a lot of people won't like you. I mean I'm girly in some ways, but in other I'm the total opposite, and some people don't like it when you don't act like you're "supposed" to.

 

[Mozz]

yes, that's nice, however not in the least witty or intelligent.

By default, you fail.

Who are you besides being one of chaos's friends?

 

[MajesticArcanine]

I told you... I know a LOT about you, Mozz. I am sort of a "trusted", friend of Chaos. She tells me a bunch of stuff about her life and the people in it.

I dislike you. I do not like one thing she has told me about you.

However, you're her friend and she likes you. So I respect that.

 

[ChaosRocket]

Well, people think it's clever to point out that what they're saying is supposedly inappropriate, it's like how people think that calling something "politically correct" automatically invalidates it. But, Liza, like I've said to you before, a good general rule of thumb to follow is, if I say something to you, it's not something to repeat on public forums. Thanks ^_^;

 

[GrnMarvl14]

I think it's kinda sexist how society in general just really expects you to act "girly" and then if you don't, a lot of people won't like you. I mean I'm girly in some ways, but in other I'm the total opposite, and some people don't like it when you don't act like you're "supposed" to.

It's the same with guys. If you don't act a certain way, people call you gay. You're expected to act within two VERY specific parameters. If you go too far in one direction, you're gay, if you go too far the other way, you're a bastard. It's MUCH more socially acceptable for a girl to be a tomboy than for a guy to show ANY sort of outward emotion beyond the most basic stuff. There ARE certain parameters of acceptibility for both genders, but their MUCH, MUCH wider for females, at ALL ages past...I dunno...3.

For men- Have you ever been sexist towards a women? In what ways have you or your friends been sexist?

I can honestly say that I have NEVER been sexist. I've hated women...but usually specific ones, and never women in general (and always because they annoyed the HELL out of me). As for my friends...I've only known one who could be called sexist. And it was more just massive amounts of bitterness (you can probably guess why). But most of my friends limit their anger towards specific people. Except for the racists...but that's another matter entirely.

 

[Barb]

To my knowledge, I've never experienced sexism in terms of being passed over for a job or promotion because it went to a man instead. Most of the men I know are in relationships already (many are married). They are old-fashioned in terms of making the first move in a relationship, but they also treat their wives/girlfriends with the utmost respect.

 

[ChaosRocket]

It's the same with guys. If you don't act a certain way, people call you gay. You're expected to act within two VERY specific parameters. If you go too far in one direction, you're gay, if you go too far the other way, you're a bastard. It's MUCH more socially acceptable for a girl to be a tomboy than for a guy to show ANY sort of outward emotion beyond the most basic stuff. There ARE certain parameters of acceptibility for both genders, but their MUCH, MUCH wider for females, at ALL ages past...I dunno...3.

I wouldn't disagree with this, but I do think it's getting better for males, especially in any kind of alternative/counter culture crowd. Like among nerds, you're really not going to get called gay for expressing emotion. I know tons of guys who spend like 90% of their time moping and whining about their feelings, and no one calls them gay, though sometimes people do tell them to just stop bitching, but not in a way where they're implying that they're sissies or something, just in a way where they're implying that they're annoying. On the other hand, I think in the nerd crowd girls have it even worse than they do in general society with being expected to act girly. Nerdy guys are rarely attracted to aggressive girls.

 

[GrnMarvl14]

Maybe it is getting better. Honestly, I can only reference my own childhood with confidence.

I know tons of guys who spend like 90% of their time moping and whining about their feelings, and no one calls them gay, though sometimes people do tell them to just stop bitching, but not in a way where they're implying that they're sissies or something, just in a way where they're implying that they're annoying.

When I was at that age, you were just called a baby/wussy/wuss/pussy/puss/I think you get the idea if you were whining about girls (you can't say someone's gay if they're crying over a girl...it just defies even the nonsense of childhood). But you'd be called gay if you, let's say...cried about anything else, or at any other time. You were called gay if you showed ANY interest in ANYTHING feminine (i.e., if you were aware of what two colors went well together, which isn't technically feminine, but it was close enough), or if you used certain words...or looked wrong. Or looked at something wrong. Or...looked...at anything.

Ok, maybe gay was the wrong word (because it was so overused). But the most basic difference between children is that if a girl acts like a tomboy, she's called a tomboy. If a boy cries, he's told to quit crying, or he'll be given something to cry about. Up to a certain age, then he's just ignored, although now that I think about it, it's at that age when a tomboy starts getting the grief that the crybaby got. So maybe my entire point is invalid. If so, then I apologize for anyone's time I've wasted. As you can tell...I'm in a rambling mood.

 

[ChaosRocket]

Actually I think you've got it right, there's a certain age up to where the "sissy" guys have it worse, and after that the "tomboy" girls are the ones who have it worse. I never was bothered as a kid, but after adolescence, I've had many guys tell me they find my personality unattractive because I "don't act cute and girly", if I didn't have my looks I don't know what I'd ever do.

 

[MajesticArcanine]

Actually I think you've got it right, there's a certain age up to where the "sissy" guys have it worse, and after that the "tomboy" girls are the ones who have it worse. I never was bothered as a kid, but after adolescence, I've had many guys tell me they find my personality unattractive because I "don't act cute and girly", if I didn't have my looks I don't know what I'd ever do.

You just find the wrong guys. wrong wrong all wrong. you're not any less cute than me and I'm a lot fatter than you and I have men hit on me all the time. Sometimes I don't even notice until Justin complains to James when we get home

Justin: "Man this guy was totally hitting on Liza..."
James: "what'd he do"
Me: Nothting! He was just talking to me about anime
Justin: Like hell he was! He was talking to you about hentai
Me: That show isn't hentai. It's just got fan service
Justin: You fail to recognize when men hit on you
Me: You are just being jelous
Justin: *sulkhide* Nooo I'm not....
James: Man, that guy was totally hitting on you.
Me: You weren't there! He was just being nice and telling me about anime
James: You don't... know men

And there was that time when Justin INSISTED the petstore guy was hitting on me when he was talking to me about ferrets. Maybe I just really DON'T get it when men hit on me a lot of the time XD.

I think that for the sake of finding NORMAL men, you need to act more cute because, seriously, this is a big deal for guys. Since you refuse to act more feminine, guys can be turned off.... When I talk to guys, they really find it adorable how I speak to them and a lot of the time it's misinterpreted as me "flirting" with them when all I'm doing is trying to act friendly.

 

[ImJessieTR]

My grandmother was raised in a large family, mainly boys. Her parents would dote on the sons and ignore the girls. Men had to eat first, women got leftovers. Even now, my great-uncle (the last one, I think) is a big chauvinist pig who can't stand it if my hair is shorter than shoulder-length and if I'm wearing pants. These guys deserve to die and find out God is female.

 

[ChaosRocket]

you're not any less cute than me and I'm a lot fatter

I said ACT cute though. My looks are perfectly fine, it's my personality.

I think that for the sake of finding NORMAL men, you need to act more cute because, seriously, this is a big deal for guys. Since you refuse to act more feminine, guys can be turned off.... When I talk to guys, they really find it adorable how I speak to them and a lot of the time it's misinterpreted as me "flirting" with them when all I'm doing is trying to act friendly.

Yeah that's it, the *acting* cute thing. I'm never going to "act cute"...it just won't happen.

 

[evkl]

MajesticArcanine by your definitions, what is cute? How does a girl act cute? You're being so vague about it.

And on another note, introducing yourself as someone who starts flamewars and is a mild spammer is typically not a proper introduction. I don't really care who you are, but everyone's equal here from the start--and what you do from the second you arrive degrades your equality. Not because you're female, but if you're a total dick about everything you believe in, well, that's a problem. Soften up a bit.

 

[ChaosRocket]

It's kinda obvious how a girl acts cute, I think. Stuff like giggling, acting submissive, just playing up any aspects that are considered traditionally feminine. Also coyness is a huge part of it as far as I can tell.

I've said this a lot that most guys do not like sex, as in, they don't really care that much about sex ITSELF. First of all there are a lot of guys who really romaticize sex and are mostly in it for the emotional connection, the guys who will not have sex with someone unless they're in a committed relationship with someone they really like. This type of guy is probably over-represented in the geek crowd.

And then there's the type of guy who really only cares about the chase. This is my point about coyness, which would be acting like you don't want to have sex when you really do. A lot of guys only really care about the feeling of accomplishment they get from sex, the feeling that they've won someone over and gotten something. They enjoy the chase and then the actual sex itself is like the boring part. I mean I'm sure both those types of guys enjoy the physical aspect of sex on some level, but just not very much, they just don't care much about sex itself.

I've obviously never been with a guy like that, because I'm impossible to chase since I don't do the coy thing, so guys like that have no reason to want to have sex with me in the first place. But I've known tons of girls who have ended up with guys like that. And even the guys who romanticize sex, they still want a cute-acting girl, a girl who's into the shallow, cliched romance stuff.

Over recent weeks I am becoming progressively more distraught over the fact that I'm really feeling disatisfied with having sex with someone who only seems to enjoy cuddling and really does not like sex itself much at all. I keep trying to shift myself back into the mindset of having sex with someone who's not really that into it and it's not working, I'm unhappy. I mean I'm realizing I'm actually happier having sex with someone who likes sex as opposed to someone I have an actual emotional connection with. And I'm the type of person who always tries to just be satisfied with whatever I have, and I'm not, and I'm getting more and more seriously upset over this.

 

[Barb]

A while back, my friend Jessica told me to read a book published in the mid-1990s called "The Rules." Basically, it's an old-fashioned guidebook, if you will, to getting a husband. A lot of what 'the rules' entail involve what MajesticArcanine describes as acting cute: being coy and flirtacious, always letting the man make the first move, etc. I didn't necessarily agree with every single rule (because some of them were fairly stupid, IMO), and I definitely don't agree that to find a normal man, you have to act cute.

What constitutes a 'normal' man, anyway? Seems like a rather arbitrary designation; what's normal to one person is abnormal to another.

 

[MajesticArcanine]

Over recent weeks I am becoming progressively more distraught over the fact that I'm really feeling disatisfied with having sex with someone who only seems to enjoy cuddling and really does not like sex itself much at all. I keep trying to shift myself back into the mindset of having sex with someone who's not really that into it and it's not working, I'm unhappy. I mean I'm realizing I'm actually happier having sex with someone who likes sex as opposed to someone I have an actual emotional connection with. And I'm the type of person who always tries to just be satisfied with whatever I have, and I'm not, and I'm getting more and more seriously upset over this.

Yeah. because he's an asshole that you chose to associate with again. I'm happy for you pretty much, though, because you miss him more than you hate thim... And I asked him why he did that and he REFUSED to tell me. He also refused to answer other questions and ignored me. This tells you certain things, maybe.

MajesticArcanine by your definitions, what is cute? How does a girl act cute? You're being so vague about it.

I'm terribly sorry I was so vague about it. I didn't know that there needed to be a definition for it. Chaos described most of what "acting cute" means.

It means that you are flirty and do not act like a slut. Some guys get turned off if you are not interested in anything other than having sex with them. Some guys want a less slutty/more classy kind of girl.

It means that you speak in a slightly raised voice.

I have a "seperate secret language" that I use ONLY with my boyfriend. Many guys love "cutetalk" even if they hate to admit it.

It means that you try to run into them and act cheerful around them even if you may have had a bad day.

It means that if you had a bad day, you tell them what happened because you "trust them"

It is acting very friendly/bubbly in general around guys that you like.

It is accepting that they want to do things with you such as "hang out" before they have sex. Many females fail to realize that men are not all about sex. The sex-deprived ones may be, but in my experiences, if I came off as a slut to most people my age, they'd call me a slut and laugh at me NOT have sex with me. How is this being productive? I don't know.

Overall, yes a huge part of it is acting coy, acting very nice/silly/bubbly. Guys just like cute girls... that's all it is. They think lots of girls are cute, even if they don't think you're cute at first. I come off as a man to most internet guys, but if they get to know me they think I'm adorable. DOes that make sense? No, not really. I completely understand why my boyfriend thinks I'm adorable. I don't get why other men think I'm cute.

Being cute is an art that all girls have, but some just chose not to use it maybe? Pity, I suppose. Because guys are way too into it.

And on another note, introducing yourself as someone who starts flamewars and is a mild spammer is typically not a proper introduction. I don't really care who you are, but everyone's equal here from the start--and what you do from the second you arrive degrades your equality. Not because you're female, but if you're a total dick about everything you believe in, well, that's a problem. Soften up a bit.

No?

And maybe I don't feel like giving a proper introduction. I'm a friend of Chaos, that is all you need to know.

She told me many times to come here and post and so I am. If she doesn't like it then she can tellme to go away and I'll stop posting here.

I honestly don't care at all if anyone other than her has a problem with me posting what I have to say here. I tend to thrive in internet stupidity and drama. This is why some people dislike me.

Oh well. There are kind of enough trolls here anyway. I have already noticed a few. But of course they don't count because they're not the n00b : ).