Ghetsis - Not a complete monster by TV Tropes?

Is Ghetsis a complete monster in your eyes?

  • Yes, he is based on what I have seen in the games.

    Votes: 12 66.7%

  • I do not know.

    Votes: 3 16.7%

  • No, he is just a jerkass.

    Votes: 3 16.7%
  • Total voters
    18
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Thanatos-Zero

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A friend of mine pointed out to me not long ago, that TV tropes refuses to see Ghetis as a complete monster. I edited the page and the edit was removed not much later.

Here TV Tropes' discription of what a complete monster is.
Complete Monster - Television Tropes & Idioms

As I see it, his actions against N, the B2/W2 protagonist and later his plan to freeze Unova (which will kill many innocents in the process) qualify him for this, even more so after forfaiting the chance to redeem himself not once, but twice. He refuses to listen to reason, especially from N, as he considers him "a human without heart". Ghetsis hasn't shown any remorse for his actions and instead questions himself why his plans failed.

So, I want you to ask you dear Pokemon Community, is Ghetsis a complete monster or not?
 
TVTropes is hardly the authority on character analysis. I'm not surprised they're refusing to put Ghetsis in the Complete Monster trope. They tend to be hypocritical and won't edit inaccurate information until long after the fact. That said, I've yet to hear any good arguments as to why he isn't a Complete Monster.
 
smalllady said:
TVTropes is hardly the authority on character analysis. I'm not surprised they're refusing to put Ghetsis in the Complete Monster trope. They tend to be hypocritical and won't edit inaccurate information until long after the fact. That said, I've yet to hear any good arguments as to why he isn't a Complete Monster.
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Implying one guy's running the site. There are a bunch of people there. People have opinions. Opinions tend to differ from one another. TV Tropes is a great site but I admit, not everything there is to be taken to heart.
 
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smalllady said:
Except I didn't imply this? Since when does "they" mean one person?
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Actually, 'they' can mean one person when talking about someone who's gender you're uncertain of.

But that's completely besides the point.

In my opinion, Ghetsis is pretty bad. However, in the grand scheme of evil villains in fiction, he comes off as kind of cookie cutter. Does this mean he's not a complete monster? No, he probably is, by Pokemon standards. Still, I dunno, I find that he just doesn't match up to more complex and better executed complete monsters in fiction. I think Cyrus is more deserving of the title.
 
Grass Type Trainer said:
In my opinion, Ghetsis is pretty bad. However, in the grand scheme of evil villains in fiction, he comes off as kind of cookie cutter. Does this mean he's not a complete monster? No, he probably is, by Pokemon standards. Still, I dunno, I find that he just doesn't match up to more complex and better executed complete monsters in fiction. I think Cyrus is more deserving of the title.
Click to expand...

You should know, that Cyrus is a well intentioned extremist, albeit a very twisted one. He seeks to recreate the universe which is devoid of any emotion. As he sees it, emotions brought him nothing but suffering, which I can understand very well. Worthy to note is, that he has a Crobat, which means he does care about his Pokemon.

Ghetsis however does not care about his Pokemon as he sees them only as tools and weapons, which should be only used by him. In the first BW game, his goal was it to disarm Unova so he can take it over with N as his pawn. With BW2 he tries to use Kyurem to freeze Unova and its inhabitants as another way to take it over.
 
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I think making an innocent child's entire life a lie falls under "complete monster."
 
I think Ghetsis had a lot of potential as a villain. But he ended up becoming pretty cookie-cutter in B2/W2. Maybe some of the folks at TVTropes share this disappointment, and therefore feel that Ghetsis does not deserve the title of Complete Monster.
 
Fact is, "complete monster" is a completely subjective and arbitrary definition and is rarely applied correctly to begin with
(this is a common failing for Sites such as TVTropes as very little of what they put up is entirely objective.)

If one would define a "complete monster" as someone who does monstrous things, then maybe Ghetsis could be called one.
But I would consider him to be more of a classic portrayal of a Cruel Madman who was pushed by his own ambitions
beyond questioning whether or not what he does is right or wrong, sinking further into his madness as a result.
Not yet a complete monster but on his way to becoming one.

There's a line in which a person must cross that marks when that person dies inside and can no longer be considered "human."
I don't believe Ghetsis has crossed that line yet. At the end of B&W2, he certainly hit the wall of his own Madness.
Usually, when a character's inner crisis comes to a head and they are pushed to the breaking point, they can go in one two ways:
They'll finally break, realizing the futility of their ways.
Or they'll break and cross the line from which there is no return.

In a way, Ghetsis's Emotional outburst at the end of BW2 at being called "Father" might be the most telling clue as to showing that he has not yet Crossed that line.
A compete monster wouldn't of cared. Although his next move will be the determining factor.
 
That's strange, I've seen Ghetsis described as a Complete Monster in multiple sections of the site before. I think he is one too.

I don't know who edited it, but there are tons of contributors to TV Tropes and any wiki, and they can all have different opinions. I'm actually doing a project on TV Tropes and wikis and their dynamics. Maybe check if there's anything about a contributor consensus on the discussion tabs on those pages, if not, add it back again. Nothing's holding you back, it's a wiki. If there are problems, that's what the discussion areas are for.

And as for him snapping at being called "father"... Well, let's just say N isn't much of an expert at having loving parents.
 
Thanatos-Zero said:
You should know, that Cyrus is a well intentioned extremist, albeit a very twisted one. He seeks to recreate the universe which is devoid of any emotion. As he sees it, emotions brought him nothing but suffering, which I can understand very well. Worthy to note is, that he has a Crobat, which means he does care about his Pokemon.
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There's no reason he can't be both.
 
TVTropes can be a fun read and a good time sink. But I usually take it with a grain of salt.
 
TheCableGuy said:
In a way, Ghetsis's Emotional outburst at the end of BW2 at being called "Father" might be the most telling clue as to showing that he has not yet Crossed that line.
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I tend to agree with this. Ghetsis' losing his marbles makes it hard to know how would he act if he were sane.
 
Thanatos-Zero said:
Grass Type Trainer said:
In my opinion, Ghetsis is pretty bad. However, in the grand scheme of evil villains in fiction, he comes off as kind of cookie cutter. Does this mean he's not a complete monster? No, he probably is, by Pokemon standards. Still, I dunno, I find that he just doesn't match up to more complex and better executed complete monsters in fiction. I think Cyrus is more deserving of the title.
Click to expand...

You should know, that Cyrus is a well intentioned extremist, albeit a very twisted one. He seeks to recreate the universe which is devoid of any emotion. As he sees it, emotions brought him nothing but suffering, which I can understand very well. Worthy to note is, that he has a Crobat, which means he does care about his Pokemon.
Click to expand...

A Crobat does not necessarily mean he cares about his Pokemon. Look at the quote given for the Friendship checker in HgSs. It can also mean that Crobat has developed a strong sense of trust and devotion toward Cyrus and this was sufficient for evolution. Given how his admins act toward him, and how he was able to gather such a large following, it's not surprising that Cyrus would have a lot of charisma and therefore inspire a great deal of devotion in his followers--both human and Pokemon. It doesn't mean he cared about them. That doesn't mean he isn't a well-intentioned extremist though, as his lack of caring stems from his philosophy that emotions are problematic.

Cyrus at least sought to make the world a better place. What did Ghetsis have? He manipulated a child for who knows how long just so he can have him act as the hero of Unova, knowing that he, himself, could not possibly summon one of the twin Dragons. He made people believe that separating humans and Pokemon were for the best, and while there is an argument that humans have the potential to abuse Pokemon, he wanted to do it so that he would be unopposed when he decides to take over Unova. I have no doubts that Ghetsis, at the time, already knew of Kyurem's existence and may have planned to capture it after N had separated humans and Pokemon in order for him to take control of N's dragon.

Sure, both Cyrus and Ghetsis manipulated countless people, but Cyrus did it to end what he perceived to be the cause of the world's problems, Ghetsis did it to be on top.

Though, there would be a better discussion if we knew why the people at TVTropes refuses to see Ghetsis as a complete monster?
 
Though, there would be a better discussion if we knew why the people at TVTropes refuses to see Ghetsis as a complete monster?
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They want to have sex with him, probably.

Anyway, I have to say, I don't know if Ghetsis is entirely villainous because the Shadow Triad certainly appear to be loyal to him, as do some of the Sages, with one of them I believe mentioning how Ghetsis greatly inspired them in BW, especially Zinzolin. I mean, he's definitely a straight-up villain, but I'd say if multiple people are willingly loyal to him, he can't be a complete monster.
 
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