God Pokemon?

[Irinya]

This has been bothering me of a while now. In DP we were introduced to Dialga and Palkia, legendary pokemon that - according to legend - created the Shinnoh region; in RSE, we have a similar case, though this time it was not pokemon that bend time and space, but just strong water and ground pokemon whose battle shaped to continents. In the end of these versions, we were able to capture the legendary pokemon, and sort of 'own' a god (or a god-like creature).

Here the catch though: are legendary pokemon really that powerful? I think that they are just that: legends. Possibly the ancient people of the Pokemon world witnessed the battles between these pokemon, or somehow found out about their power(s), and created myths to go along with them. Isn't it possible that the strength of these pokes is just exaggerated by human folklore? To me it seems highly unlikely that humans can 'own' a god.

What do you think?

 

[Swampert tamer]

If you want my opinion, I agree with you.

It seems to me that the creators of pokemon have been exagerating A BIT ever since the legendaries of the 3rd generation... The creator of the sea? The creator of the land? Ok, those two I've put up with but the, "guardian of planet", flying endlessly at the ozone layer?
If someone is supposly doing something like that then how can it even be seen or captured? We shouldn't even know that such thing actually exists...

I'm not very familiar with the 4th generation yet, but saying that these Sinnoh legends are gods that created things like Time and Space... There's no way they can prove that, those legends must be absolutely bogus, because there wasn't any life form present to witness those creations... And that's why I don't like the 4th generation, or at least what I've seen of it.

I prefer not to believe on those legends. Because there is no kind of proof, while, for exemple about Ho-Oh having escaped the tower when it was attacked (or set in flames, whatever the legend varies form different sources) there were people there that watched that event and told what they saw to their sons, and that "witness" passed generation through generation...

And even if those legends were true, I doubt that the legendaries that you catch in the games are really the ones who created the time and space... maybe there are multiple palkias and diaglas who don't have the power of the true original ones, but who are catchable and actually exist, because they simply can't be that powerful, or they would never accept (battle) orders from humans, much less from a 10-16 old one... Just like there are multiple Lugias and only one has the ability to calm down the Winged Mirages rage...

 

[Cheesus Is Lord]

Within the games, this makes a lot of sense (especially when you run into legendaries in the Battle Tower... isn't there only supposed to be ONE Regigigas?). Although I find it a lot more fun to believe that here I am, capturing God, I know that it doesn't actually make sense.

The anime, however, paints a totally different picture. No one ever successfully manages to capture a legendary Pokemon, and those who try always have to build some kind of ridiculous machine to even hope for a chance. Many legends use their extraordinary powers as well, doing things that normal Pokemon, or even non-Gods, could never do.

 

[Blackjack Gabbiani]

No one ever successfully manages to capture a legendary Pokemon, and those who try always have to build some kind of ridiculous machine to even hope for a chance.

Well, Brandon has a "ridiculous machine" inasmuch as he has the Battle Pyramid, but I don't think he used it to capture the Regis.

And I suppose it also depends if you consider a custom pokeball to be "ridiculous" (ie, the Dark Balls).

 

[Cheesus Is Lord]

I was thinking more along the lines of that thing Lawrence III used in the second movie.

 

[Blackjack Gabbiani]

Well yes, but he's only one of three.


...dammit, did I just make a pun?

 

[Irinya]

But isn't there a possibility that legends are just pokemon exaggerated my myths? So, technically they can be caught like any other poke. For some reason, to me they just seem like almost extinct animals in our world; or dinosaurs.

 

[Blackjack Gabbiani]

There's that possibility too. Or it could be some of each.

We already know, at least in the anime, that you can't trust the pokedex.

 

[Swampert tamer]

But isn't there a possibility that legends are just pokemon exaggerated my myths?

I agree. Let's use Groudon and Kyogre as examples. According to legends, these two pokemon created the lands/continents and the sea. But how did they do something like that exactually?

In the games we see that Groudon has the power to summon massive sunlights, but how does this helped creating the continents? It could only make the water evaporate, creating a lot of clouds in the sky, and sooner or later the water would fall again in the form of rain.
If Kyogre has the power to summon heavy rainfalls it must use the water of someplace in order to use it with its ability - it can't simply make water appear from nowhere, unless it uses water stored inside it's body. But how could it expand the sea by doing this? Impossible.

These pokemon have the power to play with the cicle of the water, and maybe they can change a region's meteorological characteristics, that's all.
Because even when it rains or during a draught the quantity of water in the planet never changes.
It's not like what (more or less) Steven said in the games "At this rate the whole region of Hoenn, no the intaire world will sink with this heavy rainfall" (something like that) (in pokemon sapphire I guess).
Even if it made Hoenn became with more water by invading the lands, it would never make the entire world become "landless".

 

[Green Cherrim]

Legendaries are totally just Pokemon with great strength and amazing elusive-ness. It's like how humans thought rhinos were unicorns. They just are rare.

 

[Gazel Ministry]

I think we need to suspend disbelief when we play these games. Really, the games don't make much sense, what is one more flight of fancy?

Though, yeah, God as a Pokemon is a little galling.

 

[Perxio]

I think we need to suspend disbelief when we play these games. Really, the games don't make much sense, what is one more flight of fancy?

Though, yeah, God as a Pokemon is a little galling.

The can of wurmples has been opened.

Ah well, I still have to point out: Arceus isn't God. The closest it would be related to would be that Chinese creation myth of Pangu. The only similarity between Arceus and the Christian/Islamic/Jewish/etc God is the whole creation and being the first thing. It isn't God as a pokemon, but a Pokemon god, and if we want to get even more nitpicky here, Arceus may NOT have created the Pokemon universe- so maybe that's the ONE similarity between modern-day gods and Arceus: everything's debatable.

I think some or even many of the myths in Pokemon can get by because...eh, just take a look at the Pokemon. They're unbelievable in of themselves, whatever you see them from: the video games, anime, manga. The Pokedex entries are to be taken with a grain of salt, that's pretty much confirmed, but you can just see something simple as a torchic or something and say "...wow, how the heck, it's a chicken that can breath fire". There's only so much logic or so much realism you can expect from Pokemon or try to squeeze from it.

 

[The Outrage]

Nothing in Arceus's creation myth even matches up with that of Christianity, so I always get annoyed when they compare it to that religion, along with Giratina. Just because its called the Creation Pkemon does not make it synonymous to Christianity, unless of course you want to ignore the fact that all other religions, ancient or modern have their own creation myth. This also makes me wonder why on Bulbapedia it says that the three pixies have traits of the christian God. Uxie is Omnimiscent, Azelf is Omnipotent, and Uxie Omnipresent. I see where they get the one for Uxie, but the other two just seems thrown in there.

To get back on topic, is Arceism even a modern day religion, or something of the ancient past? I mean I don't see how its so hard to believe that these "god" Pokemon were only called gods by the ancients because of their "godlike powers"

Surely Kyogre with its instant rain and ability to cause tidal waves, and Groudon with its son and earthquakes, whcih could look like a Pokemon "raising the land" could seem godlike. Why are we even calling them "gods"? Is it because the Pokedex says so? If that's the case then Bronzong should also be refered to as a god since the Pokemdex refers it as one, atleast in the Japanese version.

 

[Gazel Ministry]

The can of wurmples has been opened.

Ah well, I still have to point out: Arceus isn't God. The closest it would be related to would be that Chinese creation myth of Pangu. The only similarity between Arceus and the Christian/Islamic/Jewish/etc God is the whole creation and being the first thing. It isn't God as a pokemon, but a Pokemon god, and if we want to get even more nitpicky here, Arceus may NOT have created the Pokemon universe- so maybe that's the ONE similarity between modern-day gods and Arceus: everything's debatable.

I think some or even many of the myths in Pokemon can get by because...eh, just take a look at the Pokemon. They're unbelievable in of themselves, whatever you see them from: the video games, anime, manga. The Pokedex entries are to be taken with a grain of salt, that's pretty much confirmed, but you can just see something simple as a torchic or something and say "...wow, how the heck, it's a chicken that can breath fire". There's only so much logic or so much realism you can expect from Pokemon or try to squeeze from it.

I kind of agree about Arceus. Frankly, I imagine his creation was something like this:

Poke Dev: Hey, wouldn't a pokemon that created the whole universe be awesome?! We can make it an event pokemon and people will buy it and go to our stores!

Nintendo Suit: Sure, go for it!

Obviously a simplification, but I'm certain that that's the core of Arceus's design.

 

[Weedle Mchairybug]

Nothing in Arceus's creation myth even matches up with that of Christianity, so I always get annoyed when they compare it to that religion, along with Giratina. Just because its called the Creation Pkemon does not make it synonymous to Christianity, unless of course you want to ignore the fact that all other religions, ancient or modern have their own creation myth. This also makes me wonder why on Bulbapedia it says that the three pixies have traits of the christian God. Uxie is Omnimiscent, Azelf is Omnipotent, and Uxie Omnipresent. I see where they get the one for Uxie, but the other two just seems thrown in there.

If you were talking about my various rants in regards to Arceus "Not being a god due to It's being captured, among others", I wasn't referring to the Christian God at ALL, I was referring to the likes of the Greek and Roman gods, among others. You know, Zeus/Jupiter, Hera/Juno, Aphrodite/Venus, etc, etc.

I mean, remember that Pirithous Myth where he tried to capture Persephone, and yet failed due to Hades tricking him and his friend? Well, that is proof enough that NO Mortal could EVER capture a god, no matter what kind of technology they have or how powerful they are, etc, etc.

Plus, they can't kill their gods, due to the fact that they say "Di Immortales" a lot (which literally means "By the immortal gods" in latin), and when a mortal tries to kill one of the gods, they end up murdered by them since the mortals attacks have absolutely no effect on them.

Plus, a god can't be commanded by mortals. If anything, considering how many mythos work, it's the other way around.

Basically, to sum it up for the topic, since Arceus (or ANY legendary for that matter) is captured and commanded in some way, shape or form by mere mortals (ie, either an evil group or you, or in the case of movies, an insane member [or ex-member, with Butler] or a collector, or Brandon, even.), and, in the case of the Games and even the anime to a certain extent (Celebi's fate as well as Mewtwo and Raikou nearly croaking) even KO a legendary, they just simply aren't gods, regardless of whether it's by the Christian God's standards or the ancient Greek/Roman false gods standards.

Anyways, that's all for now.

 

[Blackjack Gabbiani]

I mean, remember that Pirithous Myth where he tried to capture Persephone, and yet failed due to Hades tricking him and his friend? Well, that is proof enough that NO Mortal could EVER capture a god, no matter what kind of technology they have or how powerful they are, etc, etc.

We freakin' GET IT. You can stop bringing the SAME STORY up.

Basically, to sum it up for the topic, since Arceus (or ANY legendary for that matter) is captured and commanded in some way, shape or form by mere mortals (ie, either an evil group or you, or in the case of movies, an insane member [or ex-member, with Butler] or a collector.), and, in the case of the Games and even the anime to a certain extent (Celebi's fate as well as Mewtwo and Raikou nearly croaking) even KO a legendary, they just simply aren't gods, regardless of whether it's by the Christian God's standards or the ancient Greek/Roman false gods standards.

1--you forgot Brandon
2--"false gods standards"? Boy, someone's showing their bias.


Also, maybe the Pokemon world has far different standards for their gods/deities. They could walk among us, like in a lot of Native American tales. Maybe they can be killed and otherwise manipulated, like in Egyptian or Norse beliefs.

 

[Bittersweet Romanticide]

Okay, first of all, it's ANOTHER WORLD. The same rules don't apply, in the same way that game and anime/cartoon are different fandoms.
Game:
There is none. It's a game. You can catch it. End of story. They are not all powerful.
Anime:
Now, we're going to take into account that it's monotheistic, because several pokemon have been listed as "gods". People worship them, and that makes them 'godly'. In this world, gods are tangible, matter creates matter. How can we accept this? Well, they CAN shrink things, change things, and ditto itself can techinically create and destroy matter. Making things from thin air is not difficult. And, of course, it's not real. It's a anime/cartoon.
From what I can see, they probably have a herichy (I can't spell for anything) where more they fight for the more powerful spot, hence Dialga and Palkia.
All in all, they're running out of ways to make pokemon special so, voila! Gods. Giant gimmick that spark one heated religion debate.

 

[Frozen Fire]

Since they were 1000+ year old Pokemon, their power must be used up on expanding Time/Space/Land/Water/Bulbapedia etc. and now tired and can now be captured.

Or, they are just Pokemon that are almost impossible to catch and having drastically high stats.

 

[Zeta]

All of the Legendary Pokemon are "Physical Gods" (see page here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PhysicalGod ). Which are what you get when you take a deity from a polytheistic religion and conform him or her to the rules of a fictional setting, more or less. Except for Arceus, who should be more omniscient and omnipotent in the Judeo-Christian sense.

I can think of at least three fictional stories that have mortals capturing a god as the plot. Just because it never happened in Greek myth means that it's somehow magically impossible for anyone to write a story about it ever.

The Legendary Pokemon are explicitly the gods of the Pokemon world. The fact that you can capture them is simply because it's the theme of the entire fucking series. You can go through Shin Megami Tensei series capturing every God from every mythology known to mankind - including Yaweh, Lucifer, Amaterasu, and Zeus. That doesn't mean it's somehow "invalid" or anything.

 

[Weedle Mchairybug]

All of the Legendary Pokemon are "Physical Gods" (see page here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PhysicalGod ). Which are what you get when you take a deity from a polytheistic religion and conform him or her to the rules of a fictional setting, more or less. Except for Arceus, who should be more omniscient and omnipotent in the Judeo-Christian sense.

Yeah, well, considering how Arceus was captured by a mortal, and apparantly didn't anticipate you entering his house, I'd argue that he ISN'T omnipotent NOR is he omniscient.

I can think of at least three fictional stories that have mortals capturing a god as the plot.

Ok, Zeta, name them, then I will try and read these stories and see if they are valid. (BTW, just something to note, Prometheus and Loki (and possibly many other god-like characters) Do NOT count as gods. If they are comparable to anything, they are more the polytheistic versions of the Devil.). Oh, and also, Helen doesn't count either, since she most likely gleefully went with Paris/Theseus due to the fact that the gods TOLD her to go with them, and she happily went with them.

Just because it never happened in Greek myth means that it's somehow magically impossible for anyone to write a story about it ever.

Ok, aside from Greek/Roman myths, in Norse Mythology, while it HAS been stated time and time again that they CAN die, it was NEVER stated that they are killed by mortals. Most of their deaths had to do with a supernatural monster or some cataclysmic event (like the Giant Wolf that's destined to eat Odin, or the Ragnarok armageddon.), for Egypt, the gods were also never stated to be killed by mortals (Most of the mentions of a god falling from power had to do with another god.).

The Legendary Pokemon are explicitly the gods of the Pokemon world. The fact that you can capture them is simply because it's the theme of the entire fucking series. You can go through Shin Megami Tensei series capturing every God from every mythology known to mankind - including Yaweh, Lucifer, Amaterasu, and Zeus. That doesn't mean it's somehow "invalid" or anything.

Yeah, well, since it is a very common rule in mythology that the gods control humans, and that they cannot be captured by mere mortals, among other things, I'm pretty sure that it DOES make it invalid. I don't care if it is part of the entire Pokemon series, If they were TRULY gods as they have mentioned, then they simply would not have been captured by mortals. they can get pokedex entries from other sources (I'm pretty sure that the official guide from Nintendo Power said that you can get the other Legendary Pokemon's full pokedex data from talking to Cynthia's Grandmother after the Spear Pillar incident. and, correct me if I'm mistaken but you also get a portion of Articuno's data when you see it in the binoculars.)

speaking of which, I'm willing to go with the pokedex as long as the game actually backs it up (like having a legendary appearing in another region despite it's apparantly being captured by the protagonist of it's native region.), or at the very LEAST is covered in other metaseries of Pokemon (like doing exactly what it has been described of doing in the Pokedex in the Anime), but if it doesn't match either of these criteria, then I'll say that the Pokedex is unreliable.