Has Ash any chance to beat Elite Four in Sinnoh region?

[swampertuska]

So far we have seen Ash battling with Lorelei in Orange Islands and Drake, Agatha during his journey in Houenn. All battles ended up with a defeat. So if he will challenge Elite Four in Sinnoh, can he win? Not all of them but at least one of them. I don't mean Aaron. Writers have shown him weak enough to lose even to Team Rocket. I mean Bertha, Flint or Lucian.

 

[Cybersai]

Only if he uses all his older Pokemon, and even then I see him losing to Cynthia.

If he uses his Johto team though, it'd be the death of him. I can only see Heracross and Donphan being strong enough for the E4, his regular Johto team would be mopped around the floor.

 

[Zeta]

If he uses all of his older Pokemon, particularly his Hoenn and Kanto Pokemon plus Heracross and Donphan, he could just barely pull it off. Provided he can switch out and heal between each battle.

If it's a marathon where he can use items while in the game, he might barely have a shot if he used Pikachu, Heracross, Sceptile, Donphan, Swellow, Charizard.

 

[Jimiinthesky]

what 6 pokemon do you think he'd need to use to win?
i recon

charizard, snorlax, picachu, kingler (maybe?), donphan, hercross

 

[paperfairy]

Pikachu
Floatzel
Sceptile/Heracross
Snorlax
Charizard
Squirtle/Donphan


That's really the only way I can see him standing a chance against them.

 

[swampertuska]

6 pokemon my version:

Charizard
Sceptile
Snorlax
Swellow
Pikachu
Squirtle/Bulbasaur/Donphan/Floatzel

 

[Cybersai]

I'm pretty sure they would have Ash use different Pokemon for each Elite, just so the writers can bring back a lot of Ash's old Pokemon to use.

Ash has about 24 Pokemon now combined, so even if some are ignored he could still use most of them in at least one battle.

Also, Ash may have Infernape by then, which will be another heavy hitter.

 

[Shinx3000]

I'm pretty sure they would have Ash use different Pokemon for each Elite, just so the writers can bring back a lot of Ash's old Pokemon to use.

Has that ever happened? granted Ash has not challenged the E4 of any region, but would they do that in anime, have Ash use different pokemon for each E4 member, not keep it like games and use the same six for all E4 challenges?

 

[Piplup]

If he uses his Johto team though, it'd be the death of him. I can only see Heracross and Donphan being strong enough for the E4, his regular Johto team would be mopped around the floor.

Bulba and Squirt barely did much more than the Johto starters - yet they randomly became extremely strong (seriously, did Squirtle really battle and train a lot more and harder than Cyndaquil? No, it's just randomly super strong)

Torkoal was shown as about the same (or weaker) level as the Johto starters, yet after a short time with Oak - it all of a sudden could almost beat a legendary (if Torkoal could do that in such a short time with Oak, imagine how the Johto starters might be now)

The writing is also completely different now than in Johto- so they'd probably just portay them as strong unevolved Pokémon just like they did to the Kanto starters (or like they always do with Pikachu and Piplup)

And really, it's funny to see people say that Ash "doesn't have a chance unless he use X and Y"
If the writers want - he'll win with a team of 6 Magikarp, if they'll want - he'll lose with team of all legendaries (and all the hints/build up we had so far, tell me the writers do want him to beat the E4 this time and then lose to Cynthia)

Also, who said all of the Elite Four are at a ridiculous level of strength?
Scott (the anime character XD) said the Frontier Brains are about the same level of the E4 members - Ash beat them all!

Not to mention Aaron was just ridiculous compared to previous E4s... and all we saw from Lucian is ONE Pokémon (which will obviously be beated by Buizel) while Lucian's others might be weaker (possibly even like Aaron's?) and we didn't see Flint or Bertha at all

In short, no matter what Poké Ash use he'll win or lose depending on if the writers want him to win/lose
As I said, it seems obvious (and a good decision) to me that they'll have him beat the E4 and then lose to Cynthia

 

[Mitchman]

He has a chance. Just not Cynthia. She is a champion after all. Oh and with a bit of training he can get through. His Pokemon this Gen have mad skills. You would never see Pokemon of this level of skills in any previous ash team.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Also, who said all of the Elite Four are at a ridiculous level of strength?
Scott (the anime character XD) said the Frontier Brains are about the same level of the E4 members - Ash beat them all!

Except that E4 members are portrayed whether in games or anime as one of the strongest trainers in the world.Sure not everyone are equally strong,but they are among the best ones.

As for Scott and whole Frontier Brains issue,what he exactly said was anyone who can put up a fight against someone like Agatha is good enough to enter Battle Frontier talking in this case about Ash.

However,while Ash managed to beat Frontier Brains(some of this battles if you ask me werent impressive at all),whenever he battled against E4 members he lost miserably.He battled against Lorelai,Drake,Agatha and in all of this battles they pretty much wiped the floor with him.
Yes someone can say how he used his best and older pokemon against Frontier Brains but he also used his best pokemon Pikachu against Agathas Gengar who seemed how it didnt battled with full strenght and despite that didnd had a chance to win.
So when you take everything into account in my opinion E4 members are definitely on higher level and stronger than Frontier Brains.

Now for the topic first its even unsure if Ash is going to challenge E4,and all this showcasing of them could lead to nothing.Not to mention as far as i know he would have to win Sinnoh league first to challenge them,and that isnt very promising.

However if it does,from what it has been showed so far i dont think he has a chance to beat any of them(not even Aaron and we cant know for sure his real strenght,as he didnt battled much in the first place).

Now everyone dont get me wrong,Ash is good but not that good.The only way i could picture him having a chance would be if he uses his strongest team(there are many combinations) but something along the lines:
-Pikachu
-Charizard
-Sceptile
-Staraptor
-Snorlax
-Squirtle

and even than with his current skill and ability he would have to have lot of luck against even one of them.

 

[Legacy]

I continue to believe that when/if Ash defeats an E4, the Pokemon Anime will end not long after. So...I hope not!

On the other hand, it would be nice to finally see Ash accomplish this great feat!

 

[Cybersai]

Bulba and Squirt barely did much more than the Johto starters - yet they randomly became extremely strong (seriously, did Squirtle really battle and train a lot more and harder than Cyndaquil? No, it's just randomly super strong)

Keep in mind Squirtle was already the leader of the Squirtle Squad before Ash even caught him, so it wasn't a young or newborn Pokemon or anything. And yes, Squirtle wasn't even in a Gym until Cinnibar (in which it lost to Ninetails), but it was used heavily after that in the movies, the leagues, it was in 3 of 4 Orange Gyms, in the Orange league, and a bit in early Johto.

By the time it came back in late Johto, it had gone even more experience helping the Squirtle Squad get back into shape. I also think it has to do with the fact that the writers love Ash's Kanto team, so they make them strong even without major on-screen training.

Torkoal was shown as about the same (or weaker) level as the Johto starters, yet after a short time with Oak - it all of a sudden could almost beat a legendary (if Torkoal could do that in such a short time with Oak, imagine how the Johto starters might be now)

I think they did that just so Torkoal wouldn't be remembered as the loser of Ash's Hoenn team. They clearly did it to redeem the Pokemon in the eyes of fans, and yes they could do that with the Johto team, but will they get the chance?

And I can't see them portrayed as that strong, between Charizard and Monferno, Cynda is going to be viewed as the weakest, so unless it evolves somehow off-screen, I don't see what it could do more impressive than those two.

 

[Piplup]

Keep in mind Squirtle was already the leader of the Squirtle Squad before Ash even caught him,

So it lead a gang of Squirtle who stole food from people and other such things
Oh wow, what an amazing training...

so it wasn't a young or newborn Pokemon or anything.

None of Ash's Johto starters was ever said to be young
Not that being young should be a problem

And yes, Squirtle wasn't even in a Gym until Cinnibar (in which it lost to Ninetails),

See? It just randomly because strong - because the writers wanted it to be

but it was used heavily after that in the movies,

"heavily used in the movies"? Squirt was only in movies 1-2 in which he didn't really do anything really special

the leagues,

The most I can remember from Squirt in Indigo League was that I think Butterfree made it sleep and somehow that was counted as a lose... I think it had one more battle with Arcanine or something? again, nothing really special here

and if you talk about the Johto League - this is exactly when the writers began to make the Kanto trio ridiculously strong (and as explained, they didn't really do anything up to that point that should make them so strong)

it was in 3 of 4 Orange Gyms,

Cyndaquil was in most of the Johto Gyms too

in the Orange league,

If I'm not wrong - it just had one battle with Onix and that's it
Again... nothing special

and a bit in early Johto.

It barely did anything in the short time it was in Johto
Maybe a few TRio blast offs? which I doubt should be counted

By the time it came back in late Johto, it had gone even more experience helping the Squirtle Squad get back into shape.

So you can say the Johto starters are getting stronger when they're with Oak
It IS implied the Pokémon (or at least some of them) can train and become stronger while they're there (like Torkoal proved)

I also think it has to do with the fact that the writers love Ash's Kanto team, so they make them strong even without major on-screen training.

Which just proves that a Pokémon strength can be played with to fit what the writers feel like
In case of GSC remakes happening, and if the likely case of gen 2 "taking over" to fill in the probably huge wait for next gen... I find it very likely to see the Johto starters return to Ash
And since as you said yourself - as they could randomly make KantoTrio strong since they wanted to - they'll be able to do so to the Johto starters to advertise them as should be and not as "weak" Poké

I think they did that just so Torkoal wouldn't be remembered as the loser of Ash's Hoenn team. They clearly did it to redeem the Pokemon in the eyes of fans, and yes they could do that with the Johto team, but will they get the chance?

From how things look like now:
1. We'll have to wait more than the usual for gen 5

2. Gen 4 is over in the games (third game out) and soon the Sinnoh saga is over in the anime (badge 7 / ribbon 4 - in May)

3. The gen 2 remakes, while aren't even announced yet - already seems to get a LOT more advertising than FRLG ever got (movie 12)

4. The Sinnoh saga alone seems like it'd be as long as the whole of AG, which means the DP Poké will get as much spotlight as previous teams and even MORE! They'll want to change things to keep everything fresh after so much time and they'll also want to advertise the NEW games (gen 2)which are going to be more important than the OLD games (gen 4) you yourself Scott would probably agree a character shouldn't stay too much time on the team...

5. The plot completely allows Ash to take back his Johto starters, unlike how the plot doesn't allow Ash to take back his Kanto starters... so they'll be able to have Ash take them back instead of throwing them to Dawn like happened with May (but I'm sure it's possible Dawn might catch one)

In short, they're going to have to find something to take over as "new gen" until the real new gen comes out - which doesn't seems to happen in the new future
Also, it'd be a oppurtunity for them to redeem characters like you say they did with Torkoal and to fix past mistakes which they sure try to do
AND while it's sometimes irritating to think this way - they DO use this show to advertise... I think it's obvious gen 2 is going to "take over" since they won't be able to stretch gen 4 too much (I doubt we'd see gen 4 for 5 years, they'll have to "replace" it with something else until next gen)

And I can't see them portrayed as that strong, between Charizard and Monferno, Cynda is going to be viewed as the weakest, so unless it evolves somehow off-screen, I don't see what it could do more impressive than those two.

It doesn't have to evolve
Bulbasaur, Squirtle, Pikachu, Piplup... they all proved a little unevolved can be as strong as big and evolved
Again, it doesn't matter what fans think, if they'll only want Cyndaquil will beat Mewtwo with one attack... it all depends on how they'll want things to happen
And I already explained why it's likely we'll have gen 2 "take over"
Also, who says Cynda can't evolve when Ash takes it back? it'd be nice if we'll get to see Ash with Quilava and Feraligatr to make something out of these Johto hints that didn't happen

 

[Cybersai]

"heavily used in the movies"? Squirt was only in movies 1-2 in which he didn't really do anything really special

Squirtle beat a Machamp in the first movie owned by the pirate guy.

The most I can remember from Squirt in Indigo League was that I think Butterfree made it sleep and somehow that was counted as a lose... I think it had one more battle with Arcanine or something? again, nothing really special here

Squirtle beat a Nidorino in a match. Pikachu battled Arcanine.


----

I agree with the rest of your points though, the writers CAN make the Johto team really strong if they're ever used again. But given so far they never were, we have to wait and see.

 

[Sleet]

Rationally, no. But he's strong enough that if the writers wanted him to, they could pull some stuff that could be justified fairly rationally, at least for this show.