Spin-Off Has Mystery Dungeon Gone Into a Dork Age?

[Juliko]

So...now that Gates to Infinity and Super Mystery Dungeon have come out, I have to ask: has the Mystery Dungeon entered a Dork Age? Neither game is as good as Explorers of Time/Darkness/Sky, cut out as many features as they added, rehashed the same storyline twice, and there isn't much post-game content anymore. In the new games, you can't even nickname the pokemon you befriend! I love the Mystery Dungeon games and appreciate what the new ones have to offer, but I have to wonder if the MD games have lost their ambition and passion. Explorers of Sky is good, you definitely can't deny that. But new games just don't meet its standards anymore. What do you guys think?

 

[godiego]

i personally prefer PSMD over Gen IV's Mystery Dungeon. regardless, i would be surprised if another MD followed.

 

[Silktree]

I think that Chunsoft's passion lies in other games these days, and I can't blame them for that. Their visual novels are easily their best games.

 

[Hunter Blade]

I never played Gates because I heard it was only ok, but I'm absolutely in love with Super PMD. It took me a few hours to get used to the new features and controls, since I've been playing PMD2 since the day it came out and have poured around 700 hours into a couple different playthroughs. I played PMD Red as well, but PMD2 was such an improvement in my eyes that I haven't gone back to it except for nostalgic reasons.

SPMD is very streamlined compared to the older games and removes some of the more difficult and tedious mechanics like IQ/gummies and having to do multiple random missions between plot missions. While I do sort of miss gummies, I'm not sad to see them go. Making the plot come slightly faster was nice, because having to do two to three random missions (or complete "day" cycles) before being able to do another plot mission was a huge pain. That being said, it still took me 25 hours of play to finish the main story and I still need to get to the point where I can evolve post-game. (EDIT: I didn't realize you can evolve immediately after the main plot ends, was expecting it to be like previous games.)

So I don't turn this into a full essay:
(keep in mind I never played Gates)

Pros:

Spoiler

-the partner character is far more fleshed out than previous games and I felt just as connected to them as to my own character
-the first twist was just as unexpected as the main twist in PMD2
-the twist on the "big reveal" about you having to go back to the human world at the end caught me completely off guard, even though I suspected something similar to what was revealed about your partner's past
-the move-selection system when holding L is an improvement to the old L+A mechanic
-the cinematics are as good, if not better, than the cinematics of XY and ORAS in terms of visual quality
-interesting final boss, felt better to beat than against previous final bosses that were simply a strong Pokemon
-the Connection System is far better than having to go try to recruit a Pokemon that has a .05% recruit rate and has a 4% chance of appearing in the first place
-being able to swap leaders immediately instead of it being a post-game reward, as well as it not taking a full turn for the swap to happen
-being able to push your team backwards down a hallway
-having every Pokemon that was officially revealed at the time included in the game
-custom teams
-the music
-the cameos

Neutral:

Spoiler

-the Alliance system was an improvement on the Link system and is a life saver for the battle challenges by various Pokemon, but it made a couple of the later bosses far easier than I would have expected them to be
-looplets keep each dungeon interesting, but it can be a hassle trying to micromanage all of the emeras

Cons:

Spoiler

-having Pokemon be unavailable for missions without an indication of when/why/when they'll be available again
-the Connection Orb is a pain to navigate, they could have integrated the touch screen to instantly select where you want to view
-not being able to deactivate an accepted mission, especially when escort missions are active at the same time as a battle challenge
-the immediate, and sometimes quite high, mission difficulty jump on the unlockable continents for lower-level play, especially with how early you can access them
-lack of customization for top and bottom screens, such as a see-through map over the dungeon or showing the team's status at the top, like below:

All in all I feel like some charm of the first two installments has been lost due to the transition to 3D models, but it'd be silly for them to continue making 2D-sprite based games. That's not how Pokemon is anymore and they need to keep up. The environment and feel of SPMD are immersive, though the transition from Serene Village to Lively Town resets that for a bit until you get to know the newly introduced characters better. I prefer how the Guild interacts while at their HQ in PMD2 far better than the Exploration Society in SPMD, but I felt like the members of the Society were actually there for you later in the story when it matters. The Society feels far more like a team that you're part of than the Guild ever did, because they actively take part in the main plot, whereas the Guild mostly just goes "Yeah you! Good job! We're here for you!" Becoming part of the Society also feels more significant, especially since you're the new guy and everybody else is far more experienced than you and stays that way through the main plot. When you join the Guild you pretty much immediately surpass the other Pokemon who aren't even full members anyways, but still in training. It's one of those "chosen one" syndromes where the main character immediately becomes OP compared to everyone around them, even the ones who have been training for much longer. While Sky does expand upon the backgrounds of characters, it doesn't have an outcome on how you physically interact with them and their roles during the main plot.

It's hard to say if SPMD is better than PMD2 (which I think is better than PMD), because both have faults and many advantages. Looking at them subjectively I'd definitely pick PMD2 simply because of how much time and effort I've poured into it, but looking at them objectively, SPMD is nearly at the same level and does well as a sequel in terms of technicality and the direction that games have been taking since PMD2 came out 8 years ago. (Gates isn't connected to any other PMD game)



Sorry, I really love PMD and it's one of my favorite game series of all time, basically as much as the main Pokemon games.

 

[The Outrage]

i personally prefer PSMD over Gen IV's Mystery Dungeon. regardless, i would be surprised if another MD followed.

I'm surprised that there were any games after the WiiWare Mystery Dungeon games so I wouldn't be surprised if there were more after this if sales actually went up.

 

[Illus]

I think that Chunsoft's passion lies in other games these days, and I can't blame them for that. Their visual novels are easily their best games.

That's more of Spike's work. Don't forget, they merged.

Also in response to Hunter Blade...
Good god, those plot twists.

 

[Silktree]

That's more of Spike's work. Don't forget, they merged.

Machi, 428 and the Zero Escape series are Chunsoft's work. Spike is just known for Danganronpa as far as visual novels are concerned.

 

[Desdar300]

I really don't see much of a difference honestly. Yes, GOI was pretty bad but SMD basically fixed all of its problems. The of the cons people complain about are also pretty petty like there being no bulletin board among other minor things. The series is fine as far as I'm concerned .

 

[Stratelier]

I wonder if one of the things that made Explorers' story such a draw is that your main character actually had an established backstory with the Pokemons' world (specifically, working with Grovyle and Celebi in the time-frozen future before heading to the past, getting turned into a Pokemon and all that) prior to the game taking place. Contrast that Gates and SMD are both pretty explicit in that you are simply called to the world to save it somehow, your player character has literally no backstory beyond that.

I'm also a little unfond of the narrative style in PSMD -- specifically, all those expository cutscenes hinting that something major is wrong with the world but which your player character has zero awareness of. The opening scene of Rayquaza scrambling to get off the planet. The scene where Dewgong and Lanturns find a petrified Wailord. The two Latis flying through the air because something is pursuing them. The cameos of Kyogre, Lugia (and Kanto birds), Reshiram and Zekrom collectively realizing that something's hunting them down. I find it distracting to the more personal story of two young Pokemon who were allowed into the Expedition Society. All I need to be told about the world's troubles is that Pelipper delivered rumors of Pokemon being turned to stone, Jirachi thinks something's amiss with the sun, and we personally discovered a petrified pair of Eon Pokemon after they crashed into the mystical forest outside Balam village.

My progress is that we just beat Entei. A strange power caused both our characters to evolve to their final forms but only temporarily (and Ampharos subsequently lampshades that "usually, with evolution there's no going back"). I kind of wish that our pair could have just been allowed to evolve to mid-form already (if only so that other Pokemon won't treat them as kids anymore), but then I realize that the inclusion of Pikachu and Riolu in the roster poses a design problem because those two evolve directly into their final forms.

 

[Kiyomaro]

Having just finished PSMD... Yeah, I'm left feeling a bit unsatisfied. It's definitely a large leap above Gates at least, that's for sure. Maybe I would feel different if Gates wasn't a thing, since the whole climax of the plot seemed to borrow a lot from what the plot to Gates had?

Back when Sky was new, before we even had confirmation about Gen V being a thing, I had a feeling that it would be hard to top Sky as being the best PMD game. I still feel like that holds true since all of the PMD2 cameos in PSMD just made me wish I was playing Sky instead. Although I'll admit that just maybe it's nostalgia.

Having played PMD since very shortly after PMD1 launched in NA, I do kinda feel like we might need a break from the series for a generation? The series will always hold a special place in my heart, but I don't want to keep playing sequential entries in hopes of trying to get that some feel that was like the first time I played PMD2 only to be left feeling kinda disappointed.

 

[BlackButterfree]

I haven't played GTI or SPMD (I'm going to hunt GTI down online, I need a brand-new copy. I'll buy SPMD soon enough), but I do know that *SPOILER ALERT* the villains on both games are NOT Pokémon *SPOILER ALERT*. Like... in a franchise named Pokémon and in a game where the only inhabitants are Pokémon, how are you going to have villains that are not Pokémon?

That alone to me puts these games far below any of their predecessors. That being said, I won't judge them until I've played them. But still... They need to go back to Pokémon villains. Gengar and Darkrai made sense. Bittercold and Dark Matter (AKA Mega Cryogonal and Barbed Wire, respectively) do not.

 

[PaulTheProtist]

I'd say PMD has exited its Dork Age with SPMD. Sure, it wasn't as good as EOTDS but it fixed most of my issues with GTI and is certainly an enjoyable game on its own. It's the second best in the series.

I wonder if one of the things that made Explorers' story such a draw is that your main character actually had an established backstory with the Pokemons' world (specifically, working with Grovyle and Celebi in the time-frozen future before heading to the past, getting turned into a Pokemon and all that) prior to the game taking place. Contrast that Gates and SMD are both pretty explicit in that you are simply called to the world to save it somehow, your player character has literally no backstory beyond that.

I'm also a little unfond of the narrative style in PSMD -- specifically, all those expository cutscenes hinting that something major is wrong with the world but which your player character has zero awareness of. The opening scene of Rayquaza scrambling to get off the planet. The scene where Dewgong and Lanturns find a petrified Wailord. The two Latis flying through the air because something is pursuing them. The cameos of Kyogre, Lugia (and Kanto birds), Reshiram and Zekrom collectively realizing that something's hunting them down. I find it distracting to the more personal story of two young Pokemon who were allowed into the Expedition Society. All I need to be told about the world's troubles is that Pelipper delivered rumors of Pokemon being turned to stone, Jirachi thinks something's amiss with the sun, and we personally discovered a petrified pair of Eon Pokemon after they crashed into the mystical forest outside Balam village.

My progress is that we just beat Entei. A strange power caused both our characters to evolve to their final forms but only temporarily (and Ampharos subsequently lampshades that "usually, with evolution there's no going back"). I kind of wish that our pair could have just been allowed to evolve to mid-form already (if only so that other Pokemon won't treat them as kids anymore), but then I realize that the inclusion of Pikachu and Riolu in the roster poses a design problem because those two evolve directly into their final forms.

To be fair, EOTDS's narrative started out very slow for the first half pf the game as well...

 

[Zweilous]

I wouldn't say that at all, a game not being as good as its predecessor doesn't mean that the series is in a "Dork Age", it just means that the following game wasn't as good (it's also subjective, but that's not the point).

I haven't played GTI or SPMD (I'm going to hunt GTI down online, I need a brand-new copy. I'll buy SPMD soon enough), but I do know that *SPOILER ALERT* the villains on both games are NOT Pokémon *SPOILER ALERT*. Like... in a franchise named Pokémon and in a game where the only inhabitants are Pokémon, how are you going to have villains that are not Pokémon?

That alone to me puts these games far below any of their predecessors. That being said, I won't judge them until I've played them. But still... They need to go back to Pokémon villains. Gengar and Darkrai made sense. Bittercold and Dark Matter (AKA Mega Cryogonal and Barbed Wire, respectively) do not.

If you want to get technical, none of the villains in the main games are Pokémon either, they're at best manipulated parties that humans use for their own gains. Regardless, having out-of-context villains is hardly new to stories like these as they can add another level of depth to the world they're being used in. Giygas for instance is a completely out-of-context villain compared to the rest of Earthbound, yet that didn't stop many fans from loving the game and loving him, in fact, many loved how that dark element existed in what seemed to be a light-hearted game. So those type of villains being present doesn't automatically make Sky better, it just means that the writers decided to try something new with their villains.

Also, Gengar was hardly a villain, a jerk definitely, but he was never the guy who wanted to destroy the world. It was the meteorite that was the threat that had to be conquered, Gengar had nothing to do with dealing with that threat and was more along the lines of Skuntank.

 

[BlackButterfree]

I haven't played GTI or SPMD (I'm going to hunt GTI down online, I need a brand-new copy. I'll buy SPMD soon enough), but I do know that *SPOILER ALERT* the villains on both games are NOT Pokémon *SPOILER ALERT*. Like... in a franchise named Pokémon and in a game where the only inhabitants are Pokémon, how are you going to have villains that are not Pokémon?

That alone to me puts these games far below any of their predecessors. That being said, I won't judge them until I've played them. But still... They need to go back to Pokémon villains. Gengar and Darkrai made sense. Bittercold and Dark Matter (AKA Mega Cryogonal and Barbed Wire, respectively) do not.

I wouldn't say that at all, a game not being as good as its predecessor doesn't mean that the series is in a "Dork Age", it just means that the following game wasn't as good (it's also subjective, but that's not the point).



If you want to get technical, none of the villains in the main games are Pokémon either, they're at best manipulated parties that humans use for their own gains. Regardless, having out-of-context villains is hardly new to stories like these as they can add another level of depth to the world they're being used in. Giygas for instance is a completely out-of-context villain compared to the rest of Earthbound, yet that didn't stop many fans from loving the game and loving him, in fact, many loved how that dark element existed in what seemed to be a light-hearted game. So those type of villains being present doesn't automatically make Sky better, it just means that the writers decided to try something new with their villains.

Also, Gengar was hardly a villain, a jerk definitely, but he was never the guy who wanted to destroy the world. It was the meteorite that was the threat that had to be conquered, Gengar had nothing to do with dealing with that threat and was more along the lines of Skuntank.

I never mentioned humans or the main games, though.

 

[0bs1d1an_kn1ght]

Can we just appreciate whatever we get, and not expect the next game to be the next Explorers? This reminds me of the Yugioh anime fandom, where we all base our expectations on newer series on the original.

 

[Juliko]

I personally don't mind pokemon games not being like Explorers. The only reason I was disappointed with Gates was its ludicrously and unnecessarily limited selection of recruitable pokemon and Super because you can't name any of the pokemon you recruit!

 

[0bs1d1an_kn1ght]

I personally don't mind pokemon games not being like Explorers. The only reason I was disappointed with Gates was its ludicrously and unnecessarily limited selection of recruitable pokemon and Super because you can't name any of the pokemon you recruit!

Yeah, I was kinda disappointed in Gates for 2 reasons:
- they removed the hunger mechanic. Like it or not, I liked it because I thought it added a level of difficulty and urgency to exploring.

- I felt money was a little useless, since I could literally find what I want in the dungeons in good quantities for free. But maybe it's more of a problem of low difficulty, and lack of dangers that make me burn through my inventory, rather than wonky economics idk. Though, when I did start the game, the Vullaby in earlier stages gave me a headache because they kept eating my berries and seeds with Pluck. But they were more "frustrating" than "difficult" imo

Haven't played PSMD yet, but planning on it

 

[zakisrage]

While I do like like PSMD, I feel that I'm kind of sick of the "human turned into a Pokemon" gimmick. Then again, I think we can all agree that Nintendo is infamous for rehashing storylines.

 

[BigBadButterfree]

I actually miss the recruiting mechanic of the older games. It made each friend on my team more special. And they'd usually be about a similar level, and grow alongside me and my partner. Now it's like none of that matters. "Aw cute, this vulpix is a fire type unlike us and it's about the same level.... OR there's a higher leveled ninetales just cuz!" Or heck, might as well just straight up use that level 50-whatever Charzard. Breeze through everything because you can recruit insanely high-leveled Pokemon. And for what? Oh, I delivered a letter to you. Now you're forever indebted to me and must do what I say.

 

[Stratelier]

I actually miss the recruiting mechanic of the older games.

I missed that too ... for maybe five seconds. Beating up enemy Pokemon and hoping that just maybe it'll make them volunteer to join up on your team never made any logical sense, especially in comparison to a main series where KO'ing and catching a Pokemon are mutually exclusive outcomes (seriously, that alone is probably the best thing about catching wild Pokemon).

But as the game went on, using the Connection Orb actually felt a lot better overall, in the sense that these are "quests" that become available as you progress and your reward for completing them is more Pokemon you can choose from to go dungeon crawling with.