How important is character competence as a trainer to you?

[Cybersai]

I've noticed that some people, for some reason, don't like the fact that so many of the main characters start off as inexperienced and/or sucking at battles at the start. I don't really understand why, as I always find it more interesting to watch a character start off not knowing how to do anything and then get gradually stronger throughout the arc.

While competent trainers will always be better for rivals, since they have to be one-step above the protagonist. Paul, Gary, etc. fit this criteria.

IMO the only time I like a main character being competent is when they're just exposition material and not a lead, sort of like Brock or Cilan. They're not there to get gradually stronger or compete in anything, and they're there as the third wheel of the group anyway, so it doesn't matter.

How do you feel about this? Do you prefer characters to start off being great battlers from the start or start off being beginniners/newbies/inexperienced?

 

[SolgaleoGX]

I don't tend to like newbies much because some of their, middle growth?, not the sucking at the beggining. It just doesn't feel natural or look like the logical thing. Yes, they'd most likely suck at battles, yes sucking will most likely lead to loosing. But when they start getting the hand of it, the logical thing is to practice, research, and analyze. That's what we do when we play the games if we want to know all the mechanics. But the show has never really shown any of this.

Sucking at first is a red flag that tells you "You need to rethink and regroup". But it's how the "rethink and regroup" is done..it really isn't. They just suddenly become decent the next time we see them, not even mention of ofscreen extreme training or studying.

I prefer my expirienced trainers, because then I can assume they did all this and makes them more believeable.

And I think it's the other way around. Trip is not getting the love Paul had because of him being unaturally good. Yes it's possible for someone to be that good from the get go, but please, an explanation would be appreciated.

Also, I did vote "both". Because like I mentioned, it's possible for any combination of aspects and characteristics to be done. Just when the reasons behind it are elaborated on.

 

[Cybersai]

And I think it's the other way around. Trip is not getting the love Paul had because of him being unaturally good. Yes it's possible for someone to be that good from the get go, but please, an explanation would be appreciated.

I think both Trip and Zoey fit this criteria. Hence the lukewarm reception to both characters.

And I made this thread because of the current whining about Iris, but the same thing also happened with Dawn, May and Ash in their early years.

 

[MarshiyanMisutaa]

Where is the option for "I don't care about their competence"? I mostly care about their personality/character, not their battle record.

 

[Blue1225]

Depends on the characters role in the show. I had no problem seeing Ash as a beginner. It made the story better for me that by the Sinnoh region there was a noticeable difference in his skill level. Showed character growth. Its one of the reasons I dislike BW.

When we see a competent trainer like Harrison or an Elite I don't have a problem with that, because you know that they've gone through their own journies just like Ash and they've come out stronger for it.

I don't like how Trips abilities have been shown. A beginning trainer being that good makes no sense. Natural talent can only get you so far.

 

[Jukain]

It depends on the situation. If someone is just starting their journey, or this is their first badge quest, I do not expect them to be too skilled at it. For characters that have been through multiple leagues, or are gym leaders/ elite four, I expect them to have a working knowledge of how battles work. Ash would be the only exception to this, since the reset button makes it irrelevant. Be that as it may, we do still see Ash's unusual methods, and his pokemon seem capable of the impossible when the writers want them to.

 

[DracoMan]

I'd kinda like to see trainers start out semi-competent, perhaps somewhat smarter than As was at the beginning. They don't make a lot of stupid mistakes, but it's still clear that their skill and knowledge are at a basic level.

 

[DynoStretch]

I generally prefer trainers to be unskilled at first and then gradually develop as the series goes on, makes things far less boring. There are a few exceptions though, like when the writers want to focus on the plot moreso then the characters growing into the game or job or power or whatever.

If Dragonball Z and Bleach taught us one thing, training montages tend to be boring as hell.... but then again, those two shows taught us that battles can be boring too- BUUUUUUUURN! :V

That said though... I really wish they wouldn't nerf Ash's brain at the beginning of every arc. It was annoying in past arcs, but B/W was the worst of them all. They dumbed Ash down to the point where he forgets the most important and simple parts of being a trainer, causing him to get royally curb stomped by a newbie twice. I'd tell Ash to hand in his man-card if I wasn't already convinced he lost it by losing battles to beauty pageant coordinators in the past.

I think both Trip and Zoey fit this criteria. Hence the lukewarm reception to both characters.

That and the fact that they're about as charismatic as two pieces of cardboard.

 

[hurristat]

Well, it depends. If they're new trainers, they definitely should start out as incompetent. Satoshi is definitely not a new trainer, and shouldn't have to relearn the basics every story arc.

 

[matt0044]

Honestly, I don't get why Trainers should be so incompetent when they start their journey. Wouldn't it be better if they studied the basics on Pokemon and battling so that they'd be better prepared for their journey? They'd know the basics but they'd learn more as they travel.

Besides, there are Pokemon Trainer Schools, for Pete's sake! Wouldn't it be better to be prepared to face the world than not at all?

 

[SolgaleoGX]

When one heads out on their own after highschool one isn't prepared for all the things life throws at you. And theory isn't the same as epractice. That's why I think it's better to take on some studying and analyzing AFTER one gets their butt kicked. I'm sure schooling would help out ALOT if done before setting out, but it's not a guarantee that you won't be at some level of suck.

 

[Masurao]

I still find it kind of stupid that Zoey managed to win her first GF, and Ash ( and Paul) have lost 4 leagues. Even if they're different competitions it's not very realistic.

 

[matt0044]

When one heads out on their own after highschool one isn't prepared for all the things life throws at you. And theory isn't the same as epractice. That's why I think it's better to take on some studying and analyzing AFTER one gets their butt kicked. I'm sure schooling would help out ALOT if done before setting out, but it's not a guarantee that you won't be at some level of suck.

Yes, but it's apparent that neither Ash, May or Dawn studied or got schooling. How they became Trainers is BEYOND me.

Also, I said that they should know the basics so that they know things like type match-ups, strategic planning and things to get them started. When Dawn (even as a beginner) forgot that you must enlarge a Poke Ball first, there's clearly something wrong.

 

[Germany]

depends on the role the character has

 

[Hellion]

To me, it's competence that matters so much as how the character is handled. Any character of different levels of competence depending the writers remebering the rules with both rookies and experienced characters.

A newbie's distinctive capacity is the lack of experience and knowledge. That means the writers have to have the characters make mistakes, lose. But that's a good thing because it's a catalyst. Loss leads to a Reaction; Reaction leads to Hard work; Hard works leads to Experience; Experience leads to the dark side. Ultimately, that implies that you have to have your character lose, learn something from that loss, overcome the obstacles responsible for that loss and grow. Ways this can go wrong 1- Having a character not lose or not learn anything from the very few losses they did have (That's the May in the second round of appeals at the Hoenn Grand Festival scenario) or 2- Have them not put in the hard work to reach their goals, i.e. very little training, battling (That's the Misty and Iris scenario).

A more experienced character, but their character needs to have more to it that overcoming problems since they don't have that many to begin with. That usually translates as more personality and comedy moments (Kanto Brock and Cilan).

 

[CrackFox]

I don't care either way. The only time it bothers me is when they have fluctuating levels of competence like as Ash does. One minute he's rookie the next he's practically E4.
I suppose it's nice to see a character get stronger as time goes on but it's almost 100% about personality to me.

 

[DynoStretch]

When one heads out on their own after highschool one isn't prepared for all the things life throws at you. And theory isn't the same as practice. That's why I think it's better to take on some studying and analyzing AFTER one gets their butt kicked. I'm sure schooling would help out ALOT if done before setting out, but it's not a guarantee that you won't be at some level of suck.

Exactly. Which is why the way the writers are handling Trip's character so badly.

Obviously this guy must have studied up a lot on Pokemon before he began his journey. I couldn't see any other way he'd be so good so fast. But this is also the problem, studying shouldn't be able to completely prepare yourself for reality. Just because I read an instruction booklet cover-to-cover doesn't mean I can just go into Super Ghouls n Ghosts and completely wreck Sadius' shit. You need to have real world experience with your task to do well at it.

Trip is presented as s completely perfect powerhouse that always wins, he evolves his Pokemon quickly, and he can travel ridiculously fast (he already had six Pokemon, two badges, and had time to backtrack before Ash even got to the town) despite the fact we all know he's completely new to the gig.

Now back to the consistency of Ash by comparison, he's a four region trainer who's last accomplishment was making the semi-finals of a professional league, and even defeating two legendaries, one of which has never lost a battle before, now we go to Unova where he forgets to do something as important as training and ends up being curb stomped in a pathetic 5-2 loss against a rookie.

The writers, so aggressive about their one-sided rivalry/underdog plot, completely forget consistency. Instead of growing wiser and stronger, he's regressed back to derpness, and that results in discouraging the fanbase. There are some people who are already counting on Ash to lose every fight he has with Trip until the very end of the league where he'll win through some DEM incident. It gives us little reason to cheer for him and desire to see his progress.

This is why consistency in story-telling is important, it helps you see the growth of the character and desire to see where they go with it, not regress back down to square-one.

Whew. That was quite a long, boring rant. I hope no one fell asleep from that.

 

[Masurao]

People can defend Trip all they want, but he is nothing more than a shallow, forced, boring rival that is just thrown in the series for the hell of it. They just have Ash suck for plot convenience until Ash get's his actual together when dealing with his main rival. That's why there's the joke rival for Ash to beat up on like Barry, or Belle so he still retains some competency.

This show is obsessed with one-sided rivalries. Be it Paul, Drew, Zoey, or even Gary..the writers always fall back on the lazy route. Now with Paul they actually gave him a decent story. However, the concept of the obligatory one-sided rivalry has stayed the same. The writers refuse to venture out of their comfort zone, because underdog stories are easier to write, and they don't want to use actual creativity to have the main rivalry, and battles be more balanced.

Ash will beat Trip, become friends, and then Trip will go to Kanto. Predictable as all shit. Honestly, Ash beating his main rival once, and then they end their rivalry doesn't give me the feel that he actually surpassed them ( even if that's what the anime is trying to hint at.)

 

[matt0044]

The writers refuse to venture out of their comfort zone, because underdog stories are easier to write, and they don't want to use actual creativity to have the main rivalry, and battles be more balanced.

Saddest truth in Pokemon. Seriously, the show need better, more creative writers. Someone like Hidenori Kusaka. I'm not asking anything too deep or too complex but I do wish the writers were better than this.

And don't tell me that it's just for kids. I've seen other kids Anime and Manga that are better than this and you all know it. Just because it's for kids is no excuse not to try harder at what you've been hired to do.

 

[The Puppetmaster]

I think it depends on what role the character has. We didn't need to see Brock and Cilan begin their journeys with Ash as weak, beginner trainers because they were already gym leaders, so of course they would have experienced Pokémon and not make rookie mistakes.

If the trainer is just starting their journey, like May, Dawn, and to a somewhat lesser extent, Iris, then they shouldn't be expected to be as competent as characters like Brock and Cilan.

In May's case, she knew very little of Pokémon and didn't even like them; Dawn, on the other hand, was raised by a top coordinator and knew all about contests before starting her journey. I like that the writers start each character at different levels because doing so brings variety to the show.

I personally prefer characters who start as beginners because we the viewers are able to take their journey with them; we're there when the character struggles, when they succeed, and when they develop. It allows me to connect with them and be more emotionally invested in their character.