If you could change the TRio's role or personality in Best Wishes...

[Poliwhirl42]

There are a lot of fans who felt that a serious, more competent Team Rocket was a refreshing way to bring JJ&M back for another run in Unova, but there are also a number of fans who were disappointed in the lack of personality the writers failed to give them in this season. We can obviously see from the Episode N trailer that the "goofy" side of the TRio seems to be returning, although we can't be too sure of anything yet.

If you were among the fans unhappy with the TRio's turnout with the first two seasons of Best Wishes, or your expectations for them were totally let down, how would you have wanted them to be? Would you want them to continue being goofy and chasing after Pikachu constantly? Did you somehow like their serious plots and affiliation with Dr. Zager and eventually Giovanni with the Meloetta situation? Or were you hoping for something entirely different for them to focus on? Discuss!

 

[Karamazov]

We have a thread to discuss how you feel about their change in BW: http://bmgf.bulbagarden.net/f555/do-you-like-rocket-trios-role-bw-109377/
But this thread would be a great way to discuss how their role could have been changed or improved.

I love the serious Rockets, but I don't love most of their plans. Aside from the Subway, Kami and Operation Tempest two-parter and everything pre-Meteonite, their story felt confusing at times. So I would have liked it if they had more focus in their missions, and more action/intrigue scenes. Watching them rob that museum to get the Meteonite was so cool!

I also liked the stories where they met Ash and co. with the purpose of attacking, like in the first Druddigon episode. I think having them willingly go after the group and the CotD, as opposed to the twerps just running into them, was pretty cool.

 

[SammyW27]

A middle ground would be nice. I see no reason they can't be good at their jobs AND still be kinda fun.

I am SOOOO glad they finally quit stalking some kid for his Pikachu in favor of going on actual missions & capers (and thank Arceus those obnoxious fantasies are gone!). It was also cool that they traded in that stupid balloon for jetpacks (and yes, I am annoyed it's coming back).

However, it was somewhat negated by the fact they just weren't as fun as they used to be. Sure, it forced TPCI to stop giving them the Worst Dialog Ever every week, but they became...duller, for some reason. No reason they can't have some fun in those setting up scenes. And another thing--when the scenes of setting up for a caper seem to get more focus than the actual caper itself, that's a problem...

We saw in the episodes between Castelia & Nimbasa they can indeed walk the line between threatening & funny (just like the good ol' Kanto days). I see no reason why the writers can't let them do it again in Episode N. (Especially since we're dealing with guys who'll be even bigger jerks)

 

[Hidden Mew]

Putting them in the middle where they're still goofy comedy relief, but can still be at least semi-competent with their plans would have been nice. It could have made their rare appearances more enjoyable for me. Even something like they act all serious when they meet up with other Team Rocket members or whoever they go for assignments and then being more like themselves when they talk with each other would have worked. I think that the only times we saw that was during Ash's Castelia Gym battle and that Litwick episode. Going to one extreme over the other in terms of their personalities wasn't really the best choice, especially with how long they were in comedy relief roles, but finding a balance would have been an improvement.

 

[Karamazov]

I actually wouldn't want them goofy myself - especially considering how the dub portrays them. But on top of what I said earlier (Because Sammy and Mew got me thinking), seeing them be cool and humorous is cool. I'd like more verbal humor from them, as opposed to physical. The radio show worked out well.

 

[Winterdaze]

I was a big fan of the comedic TRio (Japanese version only, Zoppi's Rockets can burn in eternal hellfire), I loved the way they brought a lot of energy and wit to the show. While I think it's good that BW has been exploring other avenues of comic relief rather than falling back on the Rockets all the time, I do miss the old TRio and wish that they'd shown more of their older personalities from time to time.

 

[Dogasu]

I could write a freaking novel on the subject, but I'll just address the big ones for now.

If we absolutely *had* to have 'serious Rockets,' I would have made it so that their transition from DP to BW wasn't so abrupt. Show a training montage, show them receiving their new uniforms, give us some idea of where they rank in the organization now (are they higher than Yamato and Kosaburou? What about someone like Tatsumi? Bashou and Buson?)...give us *something* to explain why they've changed so much. Saying "they got a higher rank because they took down J and the Ginga-Dan" is not enough, especially since Sakaki has absolutely no reason to believe that they were the ones behind their collapse.

A coherent story would have also been nice. Unlike the Magma/Aqua and Ginga stories, the Rocket-Dan's story didn't really seem to have any clear goal ahead of them. What was their endgame? To amass a huge army of pokemon to take over the world? How does the Meteonite that they spent the first half year of the series going after tie into that? Why was the Kami Trio plot the next logical step to take after the Battle Subway failure? It really seemed like the writers were just making shit up as they went and didn't have any real concrete plans for the organization as a whole.

 

[Jez]

My main complaint since the beginning of "Best Wishes" is the lack of development of Musashi and Kojiro personnalities. they always give me the feeling that they have lost their souls and their reason to live, it seems only the work is important for the trio now. They do not share anything... no more fearhug or complicity....

I dream of a just mix for the trio: "humorous" but not too much and "serious" but not too much (50/50). Like that, every fan will be satisfied (whatever he prefer badass/serious or sentimental/funny every fan should find his happiness.) When I discovered the first BW preview, i was happy when I found the pictures of Team Rocket in black uniforms with their professional appearance, but I quickly became disillusioned when the broadcast of the two first episodes when I realized they were suffering from an excess. The scene that shocked me the most was the passage of "Matori" announcing that their old Pokemon should remain in the HQ... Normally Musashi and Kojiro were very saddened by this announcement but they remained stoic.

Why do they appear for a few seconds since they were serious???? They waited 14 years to receive some major changes and we have no explanation...

Yamask and Woobat also suffer from a huge lack of development. We know nothing of their personality unlike the old pokemon of the trio. This is unfortunate because I love Yamask and I dream to know more about him, What is his personality? Mysterious? Shy? He seems happy for a split second when he leaves his Pokéball... but... how is his relationship with his trainer, Why not dedicate an episode explaining what he feels to have been a human before it becomes a pokémon, is it retains memories of his past life? There are so many interesting things that could be developed.

I also wish we see some passages of the life of the trio in the headquarters after they returned to Kanto... (with cameos of Butch, Cassidy, Flint, Domino, Wendy...)

And why they do not have no more the black uniforms now? Black for badass, white for funny would have been much better...

As for the double episode with Meloetta I found OOC Musashi and Kojiro because before they were terrified by the boss they hardly dared to call him but, in this episode they laid their hands on him as if it were a teammate. I expect these episodes something deeper, they discover for example that the boss had used as pawns for its own interests.
And why the doctor Seger stole so much screentime? I was shocked by the lack of professionalism he has shown in the Tirtouga episodes when it was not even planned a trap to hold after its reconstitution from DNA and the doctor is so much slow >__< ... It's simple, I hate this character and I hope never to see him again.

- A little more development for the new TR pokémon,
- A mix serious-funny,
- A valid time of appearance
-> Here are my main desires. (And I hope to see more flashbacks of their childhood just because I love it)

The only episode of "Best Wishes" that I liked so far was the one on "The Litwick Mansion", I also liked the scene of Musashi and Nyaasu stealing the meteorite in the museum and the capture of Yamask by Kojiro. I was disappointed with all their other appearances in B.W.

Since AG and DP, there were many episodes that I found annoying, I was tired of the predictability of certain scenes but some wonderful episodes were devoted to them made up their level so much high ("Noodles roaming off", "Dressed for Jess success"...). They remained charismatic and adorable in all other sagas although sometimes their goofiness was too exaggerated, I admit. However, in all old sagas I did NOT found the trio insignificant and boring as they could be in the majority of their B.W appearances.

I'm really sad by the disrespect their characters have received in recent years... I hope they will behave as in the radio. I miss ... their laugh and their happiness. I want to see them happy again so they seem to get bored since Best Wishes. I do not think to remain serious all the time give them any happiness. As explained in "Holly Matrimony" Kojiro hated so much the serious/rigid way and so cherished the freedom. I'm tired of their frustrated expressions frozen on their faces...They seem not free for their actions since they work with Seger...

A return to the Kanto (O.S) version Team Rocket would be perfect.

The Meloetta double-episodes made ​​me so scared and depressed me a lot (it would have been a bad end) but now, I think "they" (the Team Rocket trio) are not lost and I hope that if they do not receive the development they deserve now (in BW2-N) they will be in the next saga (X & Y) ... I cross my fingers. ;-)

 

[3Dchu]

Would've liked it if they made some sort of appearance like they did in EP002. They were serious, yeah, but they managed to show their personalities too somehow.

And like Dogasu said, showing a transition from DP to BW would be nice.

 

[ElJames]

Maybe my idea is somewhat crazy, but I would like to see this:

Team Rocket does their thing, occasionally meeting with Ash and the group, Ash does his thing, occasionally meeting with Team Rocket. Ie, Ash must not spoil their plans completely or shouldn't be involved with their main plot at all. As the time passes, actions of the TRio combined with other agents allow the organization to reach the point where Team Rocket becomes a public and massive enemy to everyone in the vicinity. That way we would have two different storylines (Team Rocket | Ash) that will sometimes interfere with each other without ruining themselves in the process. We also can keep the goofy side of TRio - they could probably switch into that mood sometimes while meeting with Ash and co.

In the end, it would lead to the final showdown between Team Rocket as a syndicate and Ash with his friends or even other "teams" involved in the whole thing. In the final battle, it would be interesting to see all main Team Rocket agents on the field alongside with Domino and Giovanni.

This scenery would allow Jessie, James and Meowth finally do something significant for Team Rocket with lasting effect, show the result of their work, and turn Team Rocket into real and powerful villains as a whole, providing a strong climax to the whole story.

But this is pretty much impossible anyway

 

[SammyW27]

^ still sounds really cool though! :-D

 

[Cybersai]

One thing I miss from the Kanto era is Team Rocket used to hit each other.

Meowth used to scratch Jessie/James faces with visible scars. Jessie used to punch both Meowth and James on the head. They used to physically roll around and rumble. Then they also used to hug each other with fear.

One thing that changed after Shudo stepped down is this stuff all started disappearing around early Johto. The tedious Johto fillers did still have a few moments like this, but they were few and far inbetween.

 

[みさあき]

My main complaint since the beginning of "Best Wishes" is the lack of development of Musashi and Kojiro personnalities. they always give me the feeling that they have lost their souls and their reason to live, it seems only the work is important for the trio now. They do not share anything... no more fearhug or complicity....

Yeeah been wanting to mention the fearhug as well. Just something but I always thought when they did that it meant that they feared for each other and that was cool to see. But yeah, I agree with you when you say that they don't share anything. It's pretty much like.... they are acquaintances. That's all. Never really liked their stoic personalities anyway but then that'd start a catfight.

I dream of a just mix for the trio: "humorous" but not too much and "serious" but not too much (50/50). Like that, every fan will be satisfied (whatever he prefer badass/serious or sentimental/funny every fan should find his happiness.) When I discovered the first BW preview, i was happy when I found the pictures of Team Rocket in black uniforms with their professional appearance, but I quickly became disillusioned when the broadcast of the two first episodes when I realized they were suffering from an excess. The scene that shocked me the most was the passage of "Matori" announcing that their old Pokemon should remain in the HQ... Normally Musashi and Kojiro were very saddened by this announcement but they remained stoic.

I defiantly agree that they should be a mix of both. Like I prefer the D/P Rockets better because they had better chemistry and they cared for each other more there. RSE comes second. Now as for their Pokemon, I saw in the earlier two arcs that they were somewhat attached to their Pokemon, however I thought it was Giovanni that told them that they had to catch new ones. Although they had the same Pokemon in RSE and D/P but I'm not sure about Kanto. I'm not sure where you're going with that one. :[

.

Yamask and Woobat also suffer from a huge lack of development. We know nothing of their personality unlike the old pokemon of the trio. This is unfortunate because I love Yamask and I dream to know more about him, What is his personality? Mysterious? Shy? He seems happy for a split second when he leaves his Pokéball... but... how is his relationship with his trainer, Why not dedicate an episode explaining what he feels to have been a human before it becomes a pokémon, is it retains memories of his past life? There are so many interesting things that could be developed.

They just work for their trainers. But I can see where you're going.

And why they do not have no more the black uniforms now? Black for badass, white for funny would have been much better...

Well, I am on the black train here and to say that their black ones are better but I don't think the color should determine their personality lol (although I'm down for blue and pink uniforms)

As for the double episode with Meloetta I found OOC Musashi and Kojiro because before they were terrified by the boss they hardly dared to call him but, in this episode they laid their hands on him as if it were a teammate. I expect these episodes something deeper, they discover for example that the boss had used as pawns for its own interests.
And why the doctor Seger stole so much screentime? I was shocked by the lack of professionalism he has shown in the Tirtouga episodes when it was not even planned a trap to hold after its reconstitution from DNA and the doctor is so much slow >__< ... It's simple, I hate this character and I hope never to see him again.

I haven't seen Giovanni up close in the other arcs so I'd have to watch them. Didn't see him in D/p but yeah. I can't comment on that.Though I disagree with the one about Zager since he was the only character who had a glimpse of personality on BW Team Rocket. Besides from Giovanni of course. But the others were flat out stoic and boring, including the trio :[

I say like flesh out Matori and Peirce more since they seem a bit forgettable, especially Peirce. But this is only my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

I'm really sad by the disrespect their characters have received in recent years... I hope they will behave as in the radio. I miss ... their laugh and their happiness. I want to see them happy again so they seem to get bored since Best Wishes. I do not think to remain serious all the time give them any happiness. As explained in "Holly Matrimony" Kojiro hated so much the serious/rigid way and so cherished the freedom. I'm tired of their frustrated expressions frozen on their faces...They seem not free for their actions since they work with Seger...

Team Rocket Radio? I've heard that it was horrible and then I heard from others that it was good. I guess I'll never know :[

But yeah, I've said it many times on SPP but I miss them being cheery and happy and their dumb little rhymes. Even I kinda miss them blasting off and I'm many the ONLY person who does. :[

 

[Ampharos King]

TRio should have learned from their mistakes and made their plans more foolproof. In two of their biggest missions so far, TRio and Zager were felled simply because Professor Zager's helicopter was subjected to pokemon attacks. The quad should have made Zager's helicopter more resistant to pokemon attacks and weather conditions for the second mission, especially since they were dealing with powerful legendary pokemon that could control wind and lightning. In two other missions, TRio failed to obtain certain rare pokemon (Musharna and the ancient pokemon) because they opted to battle Ash and co. instead. From previous encounters, TRio should have anticipated the risk of engaging in direct combat.

Unfortunately, the biggest problem with the TRio's role in most of BW was that their missions appeared to be fabricated on the spot. Even though there has been some continuity for these missions (i.e. stealing the Chargestone Cave rocks and the blueprints to Fennel's fossil restoration machine led to the Twist Mountain episodes), there was very little reasoning why TRio transitioned between unrelated missions and goals. Two of their missions involved stealing legendary pokemon, another mission involved them stealing pokemon from trainers at a Pokemon Center, and a fourth involved opening a gate through time to steal prehistroic pokemon. It simply felt that all TR wanted to do was to steal powerful and rare pokemon for themselves. Yes, this is a characteristic endgame for this organization, but it is still a poorly executed one at that.

 

[Chiss]

If they followed these three rules I would love them forever.
1: No pokepuns. "Pikachu's electric was rather SHOCKING!" "That was a NICE move, Glalie!" "That Cubone is bad to the bone!" Shut up.
2. No pitfalls. Or electric-proof nets. I mean really, they could just sneak into Ashy boy's camp at night and take all of his pokemon.
3. Stick Meowth in a pokeball, at least until he fixes his horrible accent. Maybe they should take him to a speech teacher. "Da rayn in spayn stays maynlee in da playns" Oh and don't get me started on the japanese voice, it sounds like nails on a chalkboard and the "no nya" ending to every single sentence he says drives me nuts.

Besides those things, I love Team Rocket and would like them back.

 

[CynthiaLover]

You know... I'll probably be chewed out for this (I always am), but I miss comedic TRio. But I could be satisfied with a mixture of serious and humorous, more the latter than the former, but still fairly even. I miss TR's bad puns, I miss their "blast offs", I miss their little word play and rhyming, I even miss the boss fantasies (and they were probably the most annoying part of their "plans"). They're one of the reasons why I stopped watching BW. They took too sharp of a turn from goofy and incompetent to serious and dangerous. That kind of transition spells bad writing. What in the seven spiral galaxies caused such a sharp transition from one polar opposite to another? Again, I would settle for a roughly 50/50 blend of humor and seriousness, but this is way too much to endure. They seemed to have lost their souls, their passion, their... personalities. While they were serious in Kanto and Johto (as they were the main threat), they at least had the humor element. Here, they're just so... dark... so soulless... so... uncharacteristic.

Dr. Zager is also a royal pain, and a camera hog. I wish they'd get rid of him for good. How he became in charge of those three so quickly, and without complaint from the TRio baffles me. Plus all their missions, if you can call them that, in Unova seem so... empty. While their hair-brained schemes were tiresome every now and then, at least JJM seemed to enjoy what they were doing. While a little seriousness can go a long way, this is too much to intake. While some of their missions, like the Kami Trio and Meloetta, were pretty awesome, that degree of dedication and hostility was just so unlike JJM. AG seemed to deliver the best of all worlds when it came to TR, while DP was getting a little lackluster, it still made the grade. BW is just the pits with them.

If I was forced to choose between funny TRio and serious TRio, I'd go for funny without a second thought. I like that kind of humor, I like slapstick, I like bad puns (and I know a bad pun, since I tend to deliver them), I like them blasting off (sometimes more that once an episode). It just seemed to fit their character designs and overall personalities better. TR was designed to be only a weak threat, even Bill... I mean Butch and Cassidy were still a minor threat, and they were more competent and dangerous than Jessie, James, and Meowth could be (though I guess that's not difficult). I mean, ever since they introduced new villains like Aqua, Magma, and Galactic, Team Rocket's overall purpose was reduced, as they had to "compete" with the other teams. While they're the only ones still standing, I still find it hard to believe that Geovonni even believed their lies about being the reasons Aqua/Magma/Galactic were shut down. As he once said "Though you're plans wouldn't buy me a cup of coffee...", so why, all of a sudden, would he believe that Jessie, James, and Meowth, after constant failure, were the "sole" reason the other teams were shut down? So why did the writers feel the need to make us choke this down?

I'm sorry, but this is not what long-term fans of the series want to see. While some seriousness is fine, yes, too much is too much. I really miss the old days, which is why I continue to treasure any AG and DP DVDs I own, as they reflect how the series was designed. The show as a whole is designed to be fun, not turn into this slag. BW failed in all aspects, especially TRio. That's how I feel. I'd settle for a midway point, but not this. I thought there was hope when Jessie and James switched back to their white uniforms, but I was wrong.

 

[ObjectionMan]

Unfortunately, the biggest problem with the TRio's role in most of BW was that their missions appeared to be fabricated on the spot. Even though there has been some continuity for these missions (i.e. stealing the Chargestone Cave rocks and the blueprints to Fennel's fossil restoration machine led to the Twist Mountain episodes), there was very little reasoning why TRio transitioned between unrelated missions and goals.

Er, what? The reasoning why they transitioned was obvious: the previous mission/goal failed. Essentially, it was "back to the drawing board" each time. They went from the Meteonite mission to the subway one because the Meteonite mission failed, then to the Kami Trio one because the subway one failed, and so on and so forth. And they were all connected by the end goal of conquering Unova. It's not difficult to grasp. Honestly, I'll take it over Aqua/Magma and Galactic's style of slooooowly building up just one singular plan that they talk up a great deal and yet stop doing anything for it for long stretches of time until Ash and friends are on hand to go up against them. That was just plain silly.

It simply felt that all TR wanted to do was to steal powerful and rare pokemon for themselves. Yes, this is a characteristic endgame for this organization, but it is still a poorly executed one at that.

Stealing rare and powerful pokemon have always been Team Rocket's M.O. Always. From the beginning. Why are you complaining about it now? And how is it "poorly executed" aside from the fact that the Trio aren't acting completely stupid, unvillainous and goofy while doing it?

You know... I'll probably be chewed out for this (I always am)

I'll be glad to accomodate you. :evil:

They're one of the reasons why I stopped watching BW.

If you stopped watching, then why are you still complaining? And where do you get the basis for your complaints?

What in the seven spiral galaxies caused such a sharp transition from one polar opposite to another?

The boss believed in them. Something he hasn't done for well over a decade. That and implied off-screen training.

Dr. Zager is also a royal pain, and a camera hog.

HE'S a camera hog!? And yet you're pining for AG/DP TRio, who forced themselves in front of the camera in every goddamn episode even when they weren't needed and even when it distracted from more important things? Also, Zager is a major villain in BW, so of course he'll have a good many appearances. He always does what he's supposed to in them, and usually shares the screentime he has with the TRio, not hog it.

How he became in charge of those three so quickly, and without complaint from the TRio baffles me.

Why would the TRio complain? Him being in charge means they're still being taken seriously in the organization, which is what they want.

that degree of dedication and hostility was just so unlike JJM.

What is with people's unwillingness to let anything or anyone in the Pokemon anime change?

Since it seems that's always the crux of the arguments against BW.

TR was designed to be only a weak threat

No, they were not. Team Rocket was designed as the main villain group for two generations of games, and a formidable threat. In Kanto, the TRio actually represented that well despite their bumbling, but it went downhill from there. And now, we have alot of people like you who think that "Team Rocket" is the TRio as they are in AG and DP, and get mad when the TRio returns to being part of the actual REAL Team Rocket.

I mean, ever since they introduced new villains like Aqua, Magma, and Galactic, Team Rocket's overall purpose was reduced, as they had to "compete" with the other teams.

So you really want the idiot TRio competing with the regional evil teams of the current generation every single time, always doomed to fail yet survive anyway? You don't think that would get the slightest bit old? At all?

I still find it hard to believe that Geovonni even believed their lies about being the reasons Aqua/Magma/Galactic were shut down. As he once said "Though you're plans wouldn't buy me a cup of coffee...", so why, all of a sudden, would he believe that Jessie, James, and Meowth, after constant failure, were the "sole" reason the other teams were shut down? So why did the writers feel the need to make us choke this down?

That was NOT why Giovanni promoted them. That was what the TRio thought was the reason, but the real reason was because his secretary, Matori, studied up on the TRio and personally recommended them for promotion, rightly believing that given such a push, they could become competant agents and head the Unova mission. DP191 made that pretty clear.

I'm sorry, but this is not what long-term fans of the series want to see.

1. Speak for yourself, not for all long-term fans. Thank you.

2. Have you not read the 2008 interview with the former director of the anime? The production crew is NOT interested in long-term fans, that is NOT who they make the show for. They in fact make the show under the view that viewers, after a certain point, will move on and leave the show, all the while new viewers are coming in. So what long-term fans want is a moot point.

I continue to treasure any AG and DP DVDs I own, as they reflect how the series was designed.

NO. IT. WASN'T.

The series didn't develop the formula AG and DP used until Johto, once it became clear this was going to be running for as long as the Pokemon franchise existed. Before that, under head writer Takeshi Shudo, the series was designed MUCH differently. AG and DP don't reflect how it was designed at all; in fact, Shudo criticized the way things went in them on his blog, especially how the TRio was portrayed.

The show as a whole is designed to be fun, not turn into this slag. BW failed in all aspects, especially TRio. That's how I feel.

Yes...that's the majority view of this fandom. Predictable, formula-driven, sluggish-paced shows like AG and DP are "fun", whereas any effort in trying to do new stuff and be creative like with BW is "slag". SIGH.

 

[Dogasu]

This is not a thread to discuss whether or not we like the BW trio. This is a thread to offer suggestions of what could have been improved / done differently.

Please get back on-topic everybody.

 

[Oddium Wanderus]

I wouldn't change a thing, I like them how they are Much better than AG/DP TR.

 

[みさあき]

HE'S a camera hog!? And yet you're pining for AG/DP TRio, who forced themselves in front of the camera in every goddamn episode even when they weren't needed and even when it distracted from more important things? Also, Zager is a major villain in BW, so of course he'll have a good many appearances. He always does what he's supposed to in them, and usually shares the screentime he has with the TRio, not hog it.

I know it's off topicy here but Team Rocket in the D/P saga hasn't really hogged the camera THAT much. I mean they were a big part of the series as well and they got the right amount of screen time, yet the focus was more on Team Galactic then anything.

I just wish that in later sagas that TR would go back to being where they were around D/P but with a little touch of seriousness. I know everyone likes badasses and all but there's a right and wrong way to be one (of course, nothing wrong with badasses, my favorite character is one but she's not boring either). And being forceful about it doesn't help as well. I mean what's wrong with blasting off every once upon a time or as someone puts it. the fearhug? Can't they have like *any* type of emotions while *still* being competent?