IGN: What's Wrong with Dragon Ball Z

[Dogasu]

So IGN has an article (part two can be found here) listing out the things wrong with DBZ. Among the complaints are "the seemingly endless levels of power," "the animation recycling," "the dub," "race and anime," and "obsessive fanboys." It's actually a pretty interesting read and one that I found myself agreeing on for just about every single point.

What do you guys think?

 

[Satoshi-chan]

Dragonball Z was a decent show, but indeed it might have been better of Akira Toriyama had ended the manga during Dragonball. Dragonball was first a humorous telling of Journey to the West, and a good underdog story. It was fun watching little Goku and little Kuririn taking on opponents who were much larger and older than they were. The naughty humor that was in Dr. Slump (will the slump anime ever see a US release) was a bit toned down in Dragonball (and even moreso toned down in Dragonball Z), but for the story that was being told in Dragonball, the humor worked and was not completely over the top. That is my take on things, Dragonball was fine, and that really was where it should have ended.

Also, it really seems as if most of the problems listed are things that happened during "Z" days, except for the race issues, but I personally have never been concerned about Popo. This is a manga/anime that was drawn/animated in a country that doesn't share a lot of the racist hatred found in "melting pots" such as the United States. The Japanese will draw a difference as they see it, and there are many other races that have odd stereotypes in anime, including anglo-saxon. This is very similar to asian stereotypes in animation/television/movies from other countries. The thing to remember about this is, I do not believe that Popo was intended to be considered to be racist, he is an accomplished fighter/trainer, and is a character from a television animation that was never intended to be shown to any other audiences but the Japanese audience.
While I may disagree with manga and anime being edited for "sensitive american audiences (in my opinion, it's not the audiences that are sensitive, it is the parents, most children from countries that seem to care about language or sexual themes seem to know quite a bit of profanity and sexual sayings even before they enter puberty)," if VIZ has to resize Popo's lips to keep audiences who do not understand that not all countries do things out of hatred or racism, so be it.

So to sum it up in a short format for those who do not want to read the above rant: Dragonball was good, Dragonball Z ended up being the downfall of the series. Someone needs to license the Dr. Slump anime for english speaking audiences.

 

[bell02+]

^lol

I don't know, I liked dragonball a lot too, I don't have any problems with it. Personally I think the main problem is that it is a kid's/tween show, and that appeal shows its face even more in Dragonball Z.

My issues with Dragon Ball Z Anime

The main issue I've had with DBZ, is the same issue I'm having with Naruto Shippuden. A lot of times it feels stretched out. I don't really care so much about characters explaining their powers as much as I care about the 10 mins of powering up and useless banter of characters that don't matter at that point. (coming to recent memory, in the Cell Arc, at the beginning of the Cell games the TV announcer kept going back to get comments from Hercule and scenes from the rest of world when it was already established that A) Hercule got Owned and B) Camera's can't pick up their movements.

Then there are a couple of logic bombs that always have bugged me. I can understand the idea of "there is always someone or thing that exists that is stronger than you"... but how the heck from the characters in the Dragonball world make a comeback in Z? It just doesn't seem possible that Gero can create Cell and the Androids based off of what happened in Dragon ball, or how the heck can Bibbidy come out of no where with Majin Buu? It's just mind bottling.

The enemies with endless power really is less of a cleche and more of a theme, something that many must seem to miss, as the characters are constantly matched with characters supposedly more stronger than them, but they draw in their special powers to protect the family and friends that they care for and rise above the odds. Typical shonen plot, but established (or at least made popular) in dragon ball.

Introducing the Article

I don't know... this article seems long but not well written or thought out. (more like a rant) I know, I also just complained about their episode pacing, but their solution were horrible. I'm sorry, but I lack a lot of faith in most Anime writers who do Anime based on Manga. Their Full Metal Alchemist example is weak in it's own right as many of the fans of the comics have grown to detests the changes in the TV show. They also Neglected to mention another show that used their idea: Naruto, and it's infamous filler arc.

Arguement on Chracter Complexity
The Argument on the main characters is also weak. It's a Shonen series, there is always going to be a male main character by definition. Goku's child-like attitude is akin to Superman's stupidity and lack of faith, it's an intentional style to make Goku goofy and child like. There was never a point in the show in which they implied Dragonball was an intelligent program. If there is never a point that I expect Homer Simpson to beat Lisa in chess, why would I believe that Goku can make a science article on astrophysics. It's that fact that actually develops goku as a character, he's not just some Chi master beating Robots, Magic Genies, and Space Aliens, it's that he has flaws in his innocents. If a person takes notice of reading from the begining, goku actually matures a lot.

As for the villains, they are about as complex as they need to be. Dragonball was a very campy series, it probably has to do with Toriyama being a fan of American Comics as well, but I actually think it would be worse if villains had a big conspiring plan of multiple complexities (Like in Bleach or Naruto). It would actually feel silly because it would be so out of place (almost like a parody). The earth would be doomed because how could we expect to rely on Goku's brain?! That's not to say villains don't have some layers, the whole them of my enemy becomes my friend shows that the villains all aren't about "let's take over the world." I also liked that some villains had stupid objectives like Cell and Buu, doing evil things just because they feel like it. It's really refreshing, especially in DB where chracters usually have a cleche'd excuse like "to take over the world".

It's also no secret that Naruto and One Piece (and 50 billion other comics) are inspired by DB, because they've been explicitly stated by the authors several times over.

On the US Dub
Really, it seems like they are trying to make a speech to look cool with the anime crowd. There is nothing truely wrong with the Dub.. Truth be told, both goku's and krilin's voices stayed really similar to their kid versions in the original, making them sound even more girly that freezer. The fans just get use to it because it's 100 episodes in and it's associated with Goku. The american voices change more based off of the age. I don't really think the US version is better, however, it really is about the same in my book. Freezer, who does actually sound slightly more masculine in the japanese version, still has a voice strikingly similar to the english version. It just seems odd to an American audience because Freezer's voice isn't typical on US tv for a super villain.(Because they both do some shouting in both versions)

I will confess that I did like the Bandai version of the dub more, but it's probably partly corrupted with nostalgia.

Animation recycling, Endless Power, and Telling vs Showing

One Animation recycling... honestly I've never noticed it. To be honest, I don't think many have ever noticed it, especially little kids. To be honest, who cares really as long as the plot moves properly. Do you care that each time a person talks they are drawn in a brand-new cell, or that Sailor Moon's/ a Digimon's transformations get redrawn each time?

As with the Endless Power plot, I've spoken a bit on it before, so I won't go into much detail, but it moves the plot along. In a series on Kung-fu fighting, that really is what you have to do. It kind of makes me picture that this editor, Isler, has an identity crisis when it comes to shows. Breaking cleches' is great, but it still has to make sense, you can't just pull a lost and pull random events from a hat at the beginning of each season. In a series about the comedy of child innocence, fart jokes, and kung-fu fighting, you don't turn around and try to be perplexed. It's just silly. So in this case, of course the next villain should be more powerful, otherwise it just annoys the fans. (aka, "why can't Naruto be this common waterfall ninja when he just took out Orochimaru's best men", type of logic bomb stuff you find commonly in fillers)

Now for my issue of Telling vs Showing, really I think this person would not be so great in creating their own entertainment media. Again, they bring up weak arguments and examples based on an expertise that is flawed. Above all there really needs to be a balance. Samurai Jack actually shows it's flaws in this, that reflected in it's ratings. The silent nature of Samurai Jack's actions works short term, but starts to fall apart long term. The telling of the action does not represent weak story telling (especially since we need to consider Dragon ball as a printed entertainment first and foremost over video), what it does is hype action. Dragonball Z had a lot of Hyping action, but again, it didn't distract, what distracted was the power ups. The actual telling of the fighting happened significantly less that the writer of this article leads a person to believe. There is more of a preparation dialog than anything. "I'm going to fight you goku" "okay well come at me" "Alright but first I will break this rock to show my powers""okay fight me, but only at 50% I don't want to go SSJ2 yet""Okay, lets begin then..." "next time on DBZ, the fight actually starts, kind-of". They don't actually sit there and explain how things work like Naruto does.

"Goku's Kamehama is an awesome technique, his chi is building up in his stomach area and extends outward into his hands compressing the energy to fire in a big blast! Oh Wow!"

Really though, in a series about Chi fighting, Dragonball handles it really well. I won't knock them on that, because for something that was like an invisible aura, is now represented as light waves and such because of them. The series itself does a very good job to hide a boring truth found out in playing the games or studying it more properly...
Kamehama, Tri Beam, Gaticgun, Masenka, you can name the move what ever you want... essentially it is all the same thing, however: a big chi blast from the hands. (Varying only really in power, speed, and in case of the anime, color)

Mr. Popo

Still, to this day, I don't find Mr. Popo to be racist. I mean, it just seems like he's been exaggerated to a degree that he doesn't look human... which is intensional because he is not human. It's almost offending at times to here people insists he is suppose to be a black guy, like going to a zoo and complaining that having gorillas is racially insensitive to black people. (Well, it's not completely unfounded though, people's arguments on Mr. Popo, that is) I just find him not to be offending because of how he acts, he never acts the stereotyped parts, he's a strong character (we never actually find out how truely strong he is), he's humble, and treated like a god.

That said, I'm no were near saying that there are no racist depictions of characters in Japan. (And by that I mean a Japanese minority perspective, so that includes their depictions of White people and Chinese people as well... thinking about it, Dragonball is actually more racially insensitive to Chinese people than Black or Indian people) I also am not saying because that they are not a very diverse country that they should be forgiven, far from it. However I have to point this out because many comments I've seen on this issue from Americans is that, because the Japanese do it to Us, we can do it to them. No, that just does not work. There are many things wrong with that statement. For one, America is more diverse, it's a diverse country made up of immigrants. If we can't get along, then we fall apart. Second, its hard to get better than someone if you do the same as them, so for being patriotic (which usually the people who make that comment are), it is an unpatriotic argument to make.

Still, even with a country not being diverse, new technologies make our world diverse. It is probably important for all countries to become more tolerant as our cultures converge. (Even though people say this is a bad thing, just because a culture converges doesn't mean that you loose your heritage or yourself) And I do agree that things are getting better in Japan (though to tell you the truth, it's more evident in the individual than the collected as Manga artists make characters that get their skin tones or races changed in the Anime counterparts)

Conclusions
Now, there are some things that I agree with. I really did want to see more female fighters. Maybe it's the reason why 18, Videl, and Pan were some of my favorites from DBZ. (And I really wanted to see a female SSJ) There is a point though, that goes beyond Male superiority. If Isler thinks that it's being sexist by having 18 eventually get her power eclipsed.. they are missing the bigger message: The only real powerful characters were Aliens. What's up with that Toriyama? Have a little pride for your own species! (Even later, half aliens like Gohan, Trunks, and Goten are shown to be inferior to their full blooded alien parents... even after supposedly getting higher power levels)

I also agree that the fanboys are annoying, but by definition, fanboys are annoying, and it shouldn't distract you from the series.

Unfortunately, I'm not as nice as Satoshi-kun, and I decided not to make cliff notes to this mega post, so everyone can just pretend to have read all of this

okay, okay, just to sum it up to a degree, this just seems like typical IGN hogwash to try to get attention

 

[Ben Cousins]

I loved Dragon Ball Z. Would even say it's my favourite anime of all time.

 

[Satoshi-chan]

Then there are a couple of logic bombs that always have bugged me. I can understand the idea of "there is always someone or thing that exists that is stronger than you"... but how the heck from the characters in the Dragonball world make a comeback in Z? It just doesn't seem possible that Gero can create Cell and the Androids based off of what happened in Dragon ball, or how the heck can Bibbidy come out of no where with Majin Buu? It's just mind bottling.

This reminds me of one thing that really bugs the hell out of me. I know that it is manga/anime and not the real world, but still... how can you expect me to really believe that every enemy that comes after Goku is stronger than the last in order of wimpy - strong-as-hell. Real world enemies do not come in a special order.

 

[Zeta]

This reminds me of one thing that really bugs the hell out of me. I know that it is manga/anime and not the real world, but still... how can you expect me to really believe that every enemy that comes after Goku is stronger than the last in order of wimpy - strong-as-hell. Real world enemies do not come in a special order.

It's the sorting algorithm of evil, silly.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SortingAlgorithmOfEvil

 

[Dark Chromium Dragonite]

I actually find IGN covering something out-of-the-blue that 4chan has been saying for years to be more interesting than the article itself.

That said, the DBZ anime is both famous and infamous, it introduced a lot of people to anime and had a lot of unique stuff to it, but not all of that stuff was good. Like all "classics" it's a flawed show.

 

[Dogasu]

]

Dragonball Z was a decent show, but indeed it might have been better of Akira Toriyama had ended the manga during Dragonball.

He actually wanted to end the series after the Freeza saga, but his editors (and the fans) wouldn't let him quit. He tried again at the end of the Cell saga, but, again, he was forced to write more stories. After a while, Toriyama just said "screw it, I'm done" and finished with the Boo arc.

Also, it really seems as if most of the problems listed are things that happened during "Z" days

Well, the article's title is "What's wrong with Dragon Ball Z"

The thing to remember about this is, I do not believe that Popo was intended to be considered to be racist

Of course not. That doesn't mean it doesn't resemble a racist stereotype and still makes people uncomfortable.

Their Full Metal Alchemist example is weak in it's own right as many of the fans of the comics have grown to detests the changes in the TV show. They also Neglected to mention another show that used their idea: Naruto, and it's infamous filler arc.

There are also a lot of people who really like the Fullmetal Alchemist anime, changes and all.

As for Naruto? Your comparison doesn't really match up. The IGN article wasn't calling for Dragon Ball Z to create over 100 episodes of pure filler that then segues into canon stuff again. They were saying that the show should have come up with its own ending to avoid having to do all the filler that they *did* wind up doing. Two totally different things.

There is nothing truely wrong with the Dub.

I strongly disagree with you there. But instead of going into a detailed rant about why I think the Dragon Ball Z dub is only slightly better than 4Kids' One Piece dub, I'll just say that when I'm watching the dub, I don't feel like I'm watching Dragon Ball Z. I feel like I'm watching some sad attempt by a company to make a 20 year old Japanese show seem current.

And the article does bring up an interesting question: if the Dragon Ball Z dub was handled better, how would that have affected the way other companies handled their dubs?

I will confess that I did like the Bandai version of the dub more, but it's probably partly corrupted with nostalgia.

You're talking about the Dragon Ball GT Final Bout game, right? Because I remember liking that dub simply for the fact that Freeza actually had a decent English voice for once.


Honestly, I think you took the article too seriously. As a Dragon Ball Z fan, I'm comfortable with admitting that the show has some serious flaws and am not offended when an article bothers to point them out. Just because IGN decided to write an article about the series' downfalls (while sandwiching these complaints with compliments) doesn't mean they're only trying to get attention.

 

[bell02+]

I didn't get offended, I thought the article was poorly written. I don't care if people think DBZ sucked.

As for Naruto? Your comparison doesn't really match up. The IGN article wasn't calling for Dragon Ball Z to create over 100 episodes of pure filler that then segues into canon stuff again. They were saying that the show should have come up with its own ending to avoid having to do all the filler that they *did* wind up doing. Two totally different things.

Probably, I just think realistically it would have turned out like Naruto. (Being how they handled the show in the first place, I doubt they would have been able to come up with a good ending to the Arcs, and most likely would create a filler arc that doesn't go anyware... Yeah, I guess Dragonball GT is case and point of them working on their own)

I guess I also should say that I liked the FMA tv show and ending, but I've heard a lot of complaints from the comic fans before... granted that was long after the show ended, but claiming because of the changes that occur in the manga they disliked the cartoon.

I strongly disagree with you there. But instead of going into a detailed rant about why I think the Dragon Ball Z dub is only slightly better than 4Kids' One Piece dub, I'll just say that when I'm watching the dub, I don't feel like I'm watching Dragon Ball Z. I feel like I'm watching some sad attempt by a company to make a 20 year old Japanese show seem current.

And the article does bring up an interesting question: if the Dragon Ball Z dub was handled better, how would that have affected the way other companies handled their dubs?

What's real different story/plot wise? I guess I missed that stuff, but besides some obvious name changes, blood cuts, Cheesey-bad rock, among a few other things it was pretty much the same. I guess a lot of minor characters got bad voices, but I still prefer english Goku and Kurilin's voices to the Japanese ones. I also still think Freeza's voices were about the same. I still also wouldn't rank it just above One Piece's dub either as one significant difference is Funimation's lazy cutting that allowed it to be probably the most violent TV-Y7 show ever. (often not cutting away from violence, not editing guns/weapons, and leaving scenes with blood)

Personally, I don't think if the Dub stayed even closer to the original it would have changed things because companies were Americanizing anime long before. I also wonder if it would have loss some fans because a lot of Americans (well at least the hardcore ones I remember) loved that horrible rock music.

As for IGN's arguments, they would have had all the same arguments as before about the endless power-ups and the story format even if the dub was 100% true to the Japanese version.

You're talking about the Dragon Ball GT Final Bout game, right? Because I remember liking that dub simply for the fact that Freeza actually had a decent English voice for once.

No, I was actually talking about the dub before funimation took over,(unless they were the same thing, never played that game... it was always too expensive to buy, and when it rereleased I didn't care much) the one everybody supposedly hated and that cut a full episode about Gohan and a Robot. I liked the voices in it a little more than the Funimation one.

Yeah, maybe I took it too serious... but I guess I just don't like people to belittle topics with a weak argument and be confident on their work.

 

[Habunake]

This topic pretty much points out the stuff that everyone and their brothers should have realized.

 

[Dogasu]

Sorry for the late reply...

I didn't get offended, I thought the article was poorly written. I don't care if people think DBZ sucked.

The thing is...I don't think they really think it sucks. If you re-read the articles, you'll noticed that all the criticisms they have about the series are sandwiched between compliments. The gist that I got from the article is that "we like the series and think it's great, BUT..."

I guess I also should say that I liked the FMA tv show and ending, but I've heard a lot of complaints from the comic fans before... granted that was long after the show ended, but claiming because of the changes that occur in the manga they disliked the cartoon.

You're going to have that regardless, though. There are ALWAYS going to be people who hate an adaptation because of the changes they make.

What's real different story/plot wise? I guess I missed that stuff, but besides some obvious name changes, blood cuts, Cheesey-bad rock, among a few other things it was pretty much the same. I guess a lot of minor characters got bad voices, but I still prefer english Goku and Kurilin's voices to the Japanese ones.

Where do I begin:
1) The voices. Everyone puts on these forced, unnatural, cartoonish voices that turns the show into a giant farce. Granted, the original material doesn't always take itself seriously, but at least the voice actors in the Japanese version aren't trying to sound like hyperactive WWE performers. "Highlights" of the English dub cast include Chris Sabat voicing like every other character in the series and doing very little to hide this fact, Sean Schemmel's infamous "Kamehame Ha Dump," Freeza's (sorry..."Frieza") sounding like a complete grandma, and what I call "Buu the Special Needs Child."

2) The music. The horrible rock-ish music FUNimation adds to the show really, to me, seems to be a desperate attempt to hide the fact that this is a 20-year old Japanese show. It's trying too hard to be "cool" and, like most dub-created music, lacks the sort of range that was present in the Japanese version.

This show also has the worst dub theme songs ever. "Rock the Dragon" might be alright because of nostalgia, but the Season 4 intro? The Ultimate Uncut Edition intro? The GT rap? Ugh.

3) The script. Mistranslations abound (no, Dr. Gero wasn't a Red Ribbon general, Vegeta's father wasn't a "brilliant scientist," Goku has no reason to know who Isaac Newton is), and the amount of cheesy, illogical, out-of-character dialogue in the show is a series of Internet memes waiting to happen.

Here's a fun activity: pick up any Dragon Ball Z DVD that has the Japanese version on it. Play the English audio of any given episode while having the subtitles from the Japanese version displayed on the bottom of the screen (be sure to pick the Japanese subtitles and not the English close captioning). Then, see how often the translation of the Japanese dialogue presented in the subtitles matches what's being said in the English version. I did this with the "History of Trunks" TV special and counted about two or three lines that weren't complete rewrites.

Personally, I don't think if the Dub stayed even closer to the original it would have changed things because companies were Americanizing anime long before.

That's true. But...if the Dragon Ball Z dub was closer to the original version and still became a huge hit, I think more companies would think twice before tampering with their show. I think the fact that a hackdub became so popular only encouraged other companies to do the same.

As for IGN's arguments, they would have had all the same arguments as before about the endless power-ups and the story format even if the dub was 100% true to the Japanese version.

You'll notice that pretty much every single criticism isn't dub-specific.

 

[totodiles choreographer]

Awww how can people pick on Dragonball Z it was years ago it's like picking on the elderly for having a poor taste in music and clothes. Just accept it was good at the time (and probs better than half the stuff now).

Do other comics ever get treated like this? I mean is there someone somewhere writing today about what was wrong with the spider-man clone saga?

The reason the concepts look dated is because they are dated! They needed to go first so other writers could try and take what they loved about the series and try to remove what they didnt like.

Plus I find the complaints abut villians turning up in order of power funny too. Lets see the options

1) Start off with the uber powerful. Result, hero dies, evil wins!

2) They keep throwing in pointless weak enemies that take up time from a proper story. everyone hates these useless weaklings and wonder why they are attacking a guy whos just kicked someones arse whos twice as powerful as they are.

3) They go in order allowing our hero chance to hone and improve his skills whilst all being a challenge.

Old shows should be studied but not to pick on them but to show how the ideas can be improved upon in future shows. Like I expect in the future when tv bosses are talking and when one says I know how about a pointless filler episodes the other one to go no i think we tried that before and were universally hated for it.

 

[totodiles choreographer]

Oh and another thing I like how it goes on about the lack of equal rights between the sexes and the next heading is about fanboys. Shouldn't it be about fan people? or are they assuming most dragonball z fans are probably male and that may have to do with the largely male cast?

Also who the hell cares if noone could tell what sex freiza was? Hes a fricking alien, he can reproduce asexually for all it matters. All in all that article doesn't do what it says it aim is. Its not got any serious issues just bitching that you'd expect from people like me on forums. Yes they drag episodes out (I only watch the narutos in one month stints to get a decent move forward) but if it bothers you buy the manga or wait and get the dvd.

Plus comparing it to samurai jack and full metal alchemist.....dont get me wrong I actually loved watching full metal alchemist but what a pointless reference, do I think they should have done the same ending with DBZ? no because it would be stupid. Yes the plot was formulaic my god we've watched ash walk round with a rodent on his shoulder for 10 years and not got bored. Eventually dudes going to become a master and retire to his tauros ranch but until then we watch him grow steadily more powerful whilst taking on more powerful opponents. Plus Gokus simplicity, he's an archetype he believes in truth, justice and defending the earth. Do I want to see him wondering whether its right to fight and is it setting a good example to his kids. NO! Why does everyone have to have so much angst and inner turmoil? Theres stories for both types of character.

Also the complaints about over explanation. Theres nothing wrong with it personally I dont think there was too much of it in DBZ but taking naruto as example it works well to explain the chakra system and the eight gates it adds a level of back story long sagas need and I find it alot better than the more western idea of supermans an alien and gets his power from the sun....how?is he part plant?

Anyway ive waffled but the article came across as pointless whineing rather than a serious look into the properties of DBZ and the manga its influenced and how they could be improved to not have the same disappointing end.

 

[Dogasu]

Don't double post :drowsy:

Awww how can people pick on Dragonball Z it was years ago

The article wasn't picking on Dragon Ball Z though.

I was also unaware that Dragon Ball Z had an expiration date.

Do other comics ever get treated like this?

IGN said they plan to do similar articles with other series.

Old shows should be studied but not to pick on them

Just because a show was older or "the first" to do something doesn't mean it's immune from criticism.

Oh and another thing I like how it goes on about the lack of equal rights between the sexes and the next heading is about fanboys. Shouldn't it be about fan people?

Most people say fanboys/fangirls, not "fan people."

And yes, I think it is safe to assume that the overwhelming majority of Dragon Ball Z fans are boys. That should be obvious.

Also who the hell cares if noone could tell what sex freiza was?

You have to admit that it's absurd for the most powerful alien in the universe to sound like a grandma while spouting off dialogue like "big boy."

I find it alot better than the more western idea of supermans an alien and gets his power from the sun....how?is he part plant?

So you don't care about Freeza's gender because he can "reproduce asexually, for all you care," yet you want to know how Superman absorbs the sun's rays? Contradict yourself, much?

Anyway I've waffled but this post came across as pointless whining

Fixed.

 

[totodiles choreographer]

Hey how come its contradiction when I say it but fine for the article? They care so much about Freizas sex (also why do I keep spelling it like that, and not freeza?I swear Ive seen it somewhere)and going on about over explanation. So they want Freeza (i'll write it like this from now on) to spend an episode saying "hey I'm a guy with some hormone problems and this isnt lipstick my race just happens to have purple lips we think you people all look weird. Also I watched 101 dalmatians the other day and have modelled myself on cruella de'vil hence the voice." I think he was meant to be alittle camp, especially if your basing it for american audiences. Where everything from the dubbing to the deleted scenes meant it was kids show. Kid shows have camp villains and I think it left a nice contrast with cooler.

I remember when people were going on at deidara for looking like a girl. We know both are guys so it didnt leave it unexplained just a mention of he/she should be enough to put peoples mind at rest.

Also the fans have no dictation over how a story should be considered. I liked watching DBZ and I consider its a kid story, just because someone else sees it differently people suddenly start looking for subplots and complicated characters. It was never going to be that and if it ended up being like that it would have lost some of its appeal.

and ok we can establish that most dragonball z fans are male and that it was designed for lads. So why does the role of girls matter in a manga thats over 20 years old? Since then girls have been getting more recognition maybe due to that fact its not such a male medium anymore.
Take naruto for example theres still at least a 2:1 ratio of male to female main characters but the girls do play a big part.

The reason I keep bringing up the age of the manga is because there was nothing in that article that anyone who has ever watched dragonball z couldnt tell you. So why write it? People have had 20 years to talk about DBZ I doubt anything new on the issue is going to be said now.

If they wanted to write it they should have started with the faults of present day manga and work back the origins of these ideas to DBZ. Or write about the disadvantages of DBZ then say what current manga in the same vein (not full metal alchemist or samurai jack) are doing to put it right or not doing as the case maybe.

But im not very good at getting my points across which is why I babble on forums instead of writing articles. So lets just wait till next week for Whats Wrong With Astro Boy!!!

 

[totodiles choreographer]

Oh I didnt read that last bit.LOL u've changed it to be this post instead of the article(funny). Yeah I know noone cares about my opinion and i admitted its came out as drivel (I really don't see why you had to reitterate that) but that doesnt make the article any better. If you can find one point in there bar that full metal alchemist comparison that anyone whos ever watched DBZ couldnt have worked out i'll be amazed.

I just think it should be treated as a long running repetitive journey like pokemon rather than a developing saga. Its from a time of giant monsters battling for no reason and combining mechas to defeat giant villains of the day and I find it alittle wrong for someone 20 years later to go oh that project you spent 10 years of your life on and was so successful noone wanted it to end......it was kind of repetitive and you took too long to get to the point.

Anyway i'll leave my opinions here for you to rip into.

 

[Adamant]

Do other comics ever get treated like this? I mean is there someone somewhere writing today about what was wrong with the spider-man clone saga?

The 90s one? Uh, yes, it's a widely critizised story.

 

[totodiles choreographer]

Yeah thats kind of my point. Everyone whos ever read clone saga knows whats up with it, so noones took it upon themselves to wait 20 years to write an article saying its crap. It'd be daft to assume (a) People still care about faults in a 20 year old comic and (b) the people who do care need to be told the faults because they lack the intelligence to notice them on their own.

Same with DBZ I get the feeling people think its been given a higher status and untouchable quality due to its popularity but it hasn't. Yeah its got some pretty hardcore fans but even they must know that if you watch a marathon day of it, through the whole day the plot would have inched forward slightly. Its more likely that the age of it just makes people laugh at how dated it is, people have nostalgia at its over the top-ness and ridiculous powering up and thats not necessarily a bad thing. If things are to be remembered at all years into the future they need their faults. It shouldnt be brought forward to see it be compared with todays equivalents, many of which wouldnt exist if it hadnt been there first.

Like the other day I read abit of a reprint of an old avengers comic (if anyone cares it was #6 the masters of evil one from july 1964). It was quite funny to read but im not planning on writing an article on its faults and comparing it to the ultimates. Why? Because it was the best 1964 had to offer and who am I to say it had a pointless plot and terrible villains?

Ideas evolve and even todays stuff is far from perfect so cant we stick to laying into todays comics and mangas and not pointing out the obvious in the 20 year old stuff.

 

[Adamant]

Like the other day I read abit of a reprint of an old avengers comic (if anyone cares it was #6 the masters of evil one from july 1964). It was quite funny to read but im not planning on writing an article on its faults and comparing it to the ultimates. Why? Because it was the best 1964 had to offer and who am I to say it had a pointless plot and terrible villains?

Visit a forum dedicated to 60s Marvel comics, and I'm sure you'll get some opinions on that story. It's a fairly good one, but it's most certainly not among the best of the era, and it's surpassed by most of the earlier issues of The Avengers, too. Comparing the story critically to a recent issue of The Ultimates is ridiculous (though at least it manages to tell a story in 20 pages instead of 120), but debating it's good and bad points is certainly fair game, no matter what date it is.

60s or not, there are some huge continuity problems there, like how some random nazi managed to not only hire an industrialist with a personal vendetta against Iron Man, and only Iron Man, whose supervillain identity and powers are not known, but also a Chinese top communist agent with nearly unstoppable superpowers who was supposed to be dead anyway, for his master's personal army. Where did he find these guys?
Nitpicking? Eh. Ruins the story? No. Worth bringing up in a conversation about said story? Certainly. Being old doesn't mean its flaws are only "because it's old", and that they should be just ignored like that.

 

[totodiles choreographer]

Its probably just me then. I guess I see forum discussions as just that discussions, where people can give their own opinions and debate them. That I really dont mind and I love discussing plots and faults. Its more the point of an article just titled whats wrong with dragon ball z. I dont know why it just really grates on me. Its spoon feeding people things as fact when its all just opinion (in the dragonball z case it is most peoples opinion but that still doesnt make it fact). Even if it was just called What I thinks wrong with dragon ball z I probs wouldnt mind so much. I am aware I am being overly picky over the issue though. So i'll probs leave it there.

Also that avengers story was just an example I didnt mean that one was the best 1964 had to offer, I am aware there was probably some better storys (not read too much from that one year to be honest). I more meant that style of writing and slightly dodgy plot. It comes across as dated and just plain ridiculous now but at the time it was where comics were and I think its too easy to slate the stories and in turn the people who wrote them by matching them up to todays standards.

I also agree I really dont like the way the ultimates is heading but I can say that about the whole ultimate continuity to be honest. Anyway thats for an entirely different thread on a very different forum.