I'm Partially Pro-Muslim!!!

[Mozz]

I agree with this. I was quite surprised that Holocaust denial is not protected speech in many European countires. I should be able to go to Holland and say the Holocaust is a myth, Mohammed was a rapist and warm beer tastes like shit.

 

[GrnMarvl14]

Muhammed was a rapist? Kinda like how Jesus was a thief/tax evader and Moses a mass murderer? Or more like how Bush wants to end our dependency on foreign oil?

Why isn't denial of the Holocaust protected speech? BECAUSE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WERE SLAUGHTERED while the majority of Europe did NOTHING. It's called atonement. It's shitty atonement, but it's the best you'll get from ANY country. And, frankly, I'm only ok with free speech when it comes with criticizing your government (I don't care who's in charge). Aside from that, it's just people bitching.

As for the warm beer thing...I wouldn't know, so I won't say anything.

 

[Girafarig_Magcargo]

Muhammed was a rapist? Kinda like how Jesus was a thief/tax evader and Moses a mass murderer? Or more like how Bush wants to end our dependency on foreign oil?

Why isn't denial of the Holocaust protected speech? BECAUSE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WERE SLAUGHTERED while the majority of Europe did NOTHING. It's called atonement. It's shitty atonement, but it's the best you'll get from ANY country. And, frankly, I'm only ok with free speech when it comes with criticizing your government (I don't care who's in charge). Aside from that, it's just people bitching.

As for the warm beer thing...I wouldn't know, so I won't say anything.

It's pretty well agreeded upon (but not decided) that one of Mohammad's wives was 9 when they had sex.

As for free speech, anyone should be able to say Heil Hitler and the Holocaust never happened. There's no atonement bullshit, just the simple fact that people should have the right to speak their mind, no matter how stupid or evil it is.

 

[The Big Al]

I'm shocked. During the fifties many German's claimed the holocaust never happened. Though, the holocaust is big pile of dirt to sweep under the rug.

Beer tastes like shit at all temperatures.

 

[evkl]

It's such an invalid talking point for them. They don't believe in a free press, so why the hell should our free press succumb to their views? There are limits to what the press can print in any free society, both cultural and legal. Is banning Holocaust denial 'freedom'? No, it's not. It's necessary, though, because otherwise the anti-semites in Europe would realize they're being conned and just make another one. Printing Mohammed isn't going to incite genocide, preaching that the holocaust was a good thing (or not true) very well could.

 

[Girafarig_Magcargo]

It's such an invalid talking point for them. They don't believe in a free press, so why the hell should our free press succumb to their views? There are limits to what the press can print in any free society, both cultural and legal. Is banning Holocaust denial 'freedom'? No, it's not. It's necessary, though, because otherwise the anti-semites in Europe would realize they're being conned and just make another one. Printing Mohammed isn't going to incite genocide, preaching that the holocaust was a good thing (or not true) very well could.

What a fascist. Just because you hate what someone else says doesn't mean they can't say it.

 

[evkl]

I believe there's a difference between worrying about another "biggest genocide in history" and worrying about "offending sensibilities" which has nothing to do with either being fascist or disliking a viewpoint.

 

[Girafarig_Magcargo]

I believe there's a difference between worrying about another "biggest genocide in history" and worrying about "offending sensibilities" which has nothing to do with either being fascist or disliking a viewpoint.

The cartoons show a general anti-Muslim, anti-Arab slant that Europe is taking recently. Muslims in Europe have a lot to worry about, especially with the resurgence of right-wing parties in countries like France.

 

[Jukain]

I have seen many cases where people will deny facts. Do you force the facts on them? No. If they don't want to listen, that's their own fault. I can't believe that European governments would be that unfair. Then again, I am talking about the continent where political lines can change in the blink of an eye.

 

[Fig]

Freedom of speech, meh.

Yes, it's good that the government can't jail you for talking against them. But there is such a thing as abusing freedom of speech, and people make a (bad) habit of crossing that line frequently, when they completely ignore the right to privacy of people, or the right every human being (should) have to a modicum of respect.

Ideological fundamentalism (ie, "Anything that's not perfect freedom of speech is bad!") is no better than religious fundamentalism (ie, "Anything that's not christian is BAD!").

Any freedom needs to be tempered by responsibility - yes, you're FREE to do some thing, but just because you can doesn't mean you should. The ideological fascination with freedom of speech has led to the present world, where there are virtually no responsibilities associated with freedom of speech.

And that's just plain a bad idea.

 

[ChaosRocket]

Wow lots of facists in this topic, I'm suprised. *Of course* you should be able to say the holocaust never happened.

 

[Mozz]

Dami, should the gov't job be to tell you BOTH that you have the right to free speech and you shouldn't (legally binding) be able to say something? oO;

 

[Fig]

Bluntly put : yes.

It is the government's responsibility to grant rights to the people. It is ALSO the government (and supreme court)'s responsibility to set (and remove) *limits* to these rights. Sometime they can make mistakes in doing so, and not everyone agree on what those limits should be - but rights NEED to have certain limits, because too many people have no concept of responsibilities.

(Libel comes to mind for one limit that needs to be set to the right of free speech)

And abuse of free speech is far too common in modern society.

In the end, it's all about a balancing act - finding the right balance between too much free speech, and not enough.

"No holocaust" declarations could be on the "too much" side. Then again, they might not. Either way, given the specific historical and political context, they're pretty close to the dividing line.

 

[QuietDragon]

But that was ages ago, back then people could get married much younger. -blink- And his first wife was 40 years old. He married her when he was 25.

... Yesh. -scuttles off topic-

 

[Girafarig_Magcargo]

Bluntly put : yes.

It is the government's responsibility to grant rights to the people. It is ALSO the government (and supreme court)'s responsibility to set (and remove) *limits* to these rights. Sometime they can make mistakes in doing so, and not everyone agree on what those limits should be - but rights NEED to have certain limits, because too many people have no concept of responsibilities.

(Libel comes to mind for one limit that needs to be set to the right of free speech)

And abuse of free speech is far too common in modern society.

In the end, it's all about a balancing act - finding the right balance between too much free speech, and not enough.

"No holocaust" declarations could be on the "too much" side. Then again, they might not. Either way, given the specific historical and political context, they're pretty close to the dividing line.

Libel's already illegal so that's irrelevant, and I don't see any "abuse of free speech."

 

[ImJessieTR]

Libel is an abuse of free speech, just as yelling fire in a theater is. Just because you can say something doesn't mean you should.

 

[Jukain]

I don't know if I like the idea of the government telling me to watch my manners. I can do that on my own, thanks. As I said before, if other people can't, that's their own problem. I will not force my opinion on others, even if I don't agree with their lifestyle.

 

[Doctor Oak]

The reason countries like Austria have laws over Holocaust Denial is 'cause, funny enough, they're a tiny bit tetchy about it.

It's a pretty fair assumption (Not necessarily always the right one, but still pretty fair) that anyone denying the Holocaust happened is Pro-Nazi. I mean, what other reasons are there to deny something with reams of evidence behind it?

And considering barely sixty years have passed since WWII, there are quite a few European Countries that still have to deal with the aftermath of it. Most of the countries don't have it as a law to protect Jews, it's a law to protect themselves from history repeating itself.

The only country that would have Holocaust Denial as a crime because of it being offensive to Jews (and I have no idea if they actually do have the law) would be Isreal. And frankly, if you're going to go there denying the Holocaust you're GOING to piss off everyone there anyway so you'd deserve everything you get.

 

[Fig]

Libel's already illegal so that's irrelevant, and I don't see any "abuse of free speech."

I *know* libel is already illegal. I was pointing out one limit that exists to free speech, that NEEDS to exist.

Or, in essence, putting forward evidence that SOME limits on free speech should be put forth by the government.

 

[GrnMarvl14]

The cartoons show a general anti-Muslim, anti-Arab slant that Europe is taking recently.

Europe's taking the same stance on Muslims as the US is on Mexicans. Both are seeing large numbers of immigrants from these populations, and many people don't like it (for various reasons). The problem is that the bad things that the Muslim groups are doing is getting greater attention (granted, it's because of 9/11) than the bad things the Mexicans are doing (MASSIVE drug smuggling, gang violence, etc.).

Any freedom needs to be tempered by responsibility - yes, you're FREE to do some thing, but just because you can doesn't mean you should. The ideological fascination with freedom of speech has led to the present world, where there are virtually no responsibilities associated with freedom of speech.

EXACTLY. We live in a world where freedom of speech is valued above all else, and because of that, there is NO movement to limit it (EVERYTHING NEEDS LIMITS). I am ALL FOR the freedom of speech in every part of the world, but people need to realize that just because you can say what you want doesn't mean you SHOULD say what you want.

Wow lots of facists in this topic, I'm suprised. *Of course* you should be able to say the holocaust never happened.

How does wanting people to take responsibility and show a little intelligence make me a fascist? Oh, I forget, we live in a world where intelligence is a threat. And responsibility is for losers.