Infiltrator buffed, Substitute nerfed HARD.

[Simba]

Pokemon with the Ability "Infiltrator" ignore Substitutes as of Gen VI. I googled, but couldn't find anyone talking about this -- isn't this a massive game-changer? Substitute, which is an utter staple of competitive battling, is now virtually useless, as the total nuke Chandelure and the ultra-high-speed Crobat both get it, not to mention the tricky-useful Malamar.

Most of the other Pokemon that get Infiltrator aren't going to be KOing or messing with anything that would be using a Sub in the first place, but still. This seems like a game-changer to me.

 

[UB-01 Kenobi]

Re: Infiltrator buffed, Substitute useless now?

This has been known since launch and it's really not too big a deal, considering that Crobat rarely runs Atk investment and has major 4MSS, Chandelure is by far the best Infiltrator but is frail and slow without a Choice Scarf, and Malamar is just mediocre in general. The best way to counter Sub is definitely sound moves, as Bug Buzz, Pixilate Hyper Voice, Boomburst, etc are all powerful and common as opposed to the relatively niche Infiltrator users. Substitute is still fantastic despite both of these buffs, and calling it virtually useless is just plain false.

 

[Simba]

Re: Infiltrator buffed, Substitute useless now?

Checking Smogon, colloquial reports suggest Substitute use has become rare in competitive battling. So not useless I suppose, but Sub teams can't simply make the jump from Gen V -- you have to completely re-make any past Sub teams to deal with Infiltrator. And if you see a Crobat or Chandelure in the Team Preview while you're using a Sub team, you may as well forfeit; there's no way your strategy's gonna work.

 

[UB-01 Kenobi]

Er no. First of all, Sub was never the most common move in the first place, and it's usage is still pretty much the same. Second, there is no such thing as a 'Sub team' - it is a move used in certain Pokémon who employ certain strategies, and those strategies still work well assuming the player knows what they're doing. A SubPunch Breloom or a SubDD Gyarados will work just as well now as it did in Gen V. And last, Chandy or Crobat is far from a hard counter to a Sub team - what is a Chandelure going to do to a +1/+1 Gyarados before it gets wrecked by a Waterfall? What's a Crobat going to do to a SubSD Bisharp before getting slapped around with Sucker Punch? And almost every Infiltrator is ridiculously frail, assuming that the player using a mon with Substitute isn't stupid, they can just kill the Noivern, Chandelure, or Crobat and then bring out their Substitute user afterwards. Hell, they can even use it as a lure - send out Breloom, Sub up, and then switch out if the incoming Noivern/Crobat/Chandelure. Next time, smack them with a Technician Rock Tomb on the switch instead of going for Sub, then finish them off as their Speed has dropped, letting you go first ( you'd have to make sure they aren't Scarfed, but that's very easy to deduce).

 

[Team Gaara]

I don't find it too much of a game changer. Or at least no more than Grass-types now being immune to spore moves or Electric-types immune to paralysis. I don't know how common Subs are since I hardly ever face them, but I doubt people would stop using them because their opponent may have an Infiltrator, which are pretty rare apparently (ironically, I have two of them: Noivern and Whimsicott).

Additionally, I've never ever used Substitute. Again, that's just me, but if I can win a good amount of times without it, I can't really see how it's an "utter staple".

Above all else, I don't think this SubNerf is too big of a deal in regards to competitive battling.

 

[Simba]

Er no. First of all, Sub was never the most common move in the first place, and it's usage is still pretty much the same. Second, there is no such thing as a 'Sub team' - it is a move used in certain Pokémon who employ certain strategies, and those strategies still work well assuming the player knows what they're doing. A SubPunch Breloom or a SubDD Gyarados will work just as well now as it did in Gen V. And last, Chandy or Crobat is far from a hard counter to a Sub team - what is a Chandelure going to do to a +1/+1 Gyarados before it gets wrecked by a Waterfall? What's a Crobat going to do to a SubSD Bisharp before getting slapped around with Sucker Punch? And almost every Infiltrator is ridiculously frail, assuming that the player using a mon with Substitute isn't stupid, they can just kill the Noivern, Chandelure, or Crobat and then bring out their Substitute user afterwards. Hell, they can even use it as a lure - send out Breloom, Sub up, and then switch out if the incoming Noivern/Crobat/Chandelure. Next time, smack them with a Technician Rock Tomb on the switch instead of going for Sub, then finish them off as their Speed has dropped, letting you go first ( you'd have to make sure they aren't Scarfed, but that's very easy to deduce).

I meant Stall Teams, not Sub Teams.

Hmm. Different sites, different opinions. At Smogon, they lament that Breloom is no longer OU because of several things, but Substitute getting nerfed is one of them. They said SubPunch Breloom is no longer viable.

I don't find it too much of a game changer. Or at least no more than Grass-types now being immune to spore moves or Electric-types immune to paralysis. I don't know how common Subs are since I hardly ever face them, but I doubt people would stop using them because their opponent may have an Infiltrator, which are pretty rare apparently (ironically, I have two of them: Noivern and Whimsicott).

Additionally, I've never ever used Substitute. Again, that's just me, but if I can win a good amount of times without it, I can't really see how it's an "utter staple".

Above all else, I don't think this SubNerf is too big of a deal in regards to competitive battling.

I never used Substitute either. I've actually always really disliked the move. I'm really happy about all the battle changes they made in Gen VI. Nerfing the crap out of Sub was a good move. Not as good as getting rid of permaweather (thank god!!) but still good.

 

[TerraTF]

Substitute was really used on most support set. SubPunch Breloom, SubPerish Gengar, SubDD anything that can learn DD, SubRoost Gliscor, SubXXX XXXXXX. Sub was a niche in and of itself. Substitute getting nerfed doesn't really matter to other things that got nerfed like Entry Hazzards or Weather this gen. Its about on the same importance level as Explosion was at the beginning of last gen.

 

[UB-01 Kenobi]

I meant Stall Teams, not Sub Teams.

Hmm. Different sites, different opinions. At Smogon, they lament that Breloom is no longer OU because of several things, but Substitute getting nerfed is one of them. They said SubPunch Breloom is no longer viable.

I don't find it too much of a game changer. Or at least no more than Grass-types now being immune to spore moves or Electric-types immune to paralysis. I don't know how common Subs are since I hardly ever face them, but I doubt people would stop using them because their opponent may have an Infiltrator, which are pretty rare apparently (ironically, I have two of them: Noivern and Whimsicott).

Additionally, I've never ever used Substitute. Again, that's just me, but if I can win a good amount of times without it, I can't really see how it's an "utter staple".

Above all else, I don't think this SubNerf is too big of a deal in regards to competitive battling.

I never used Substitute either. I've actually always really disliked the move. I'm really happy about all the battle changes they made in Gen VI. Nerfing the crap out of Sub was a good move. Not as good as getting rid of permaweather (thank god!!) but still good.

They don't lament that at all considering that Breloom remains OU easily with 5.98% usage. There were some complaints back near launch, but Breloom has proved to be just as useful as before due to the fact that a) it gets Spore b) Infiltrator is really not that common and c) it has STAB Technician Mach Punch and, as I've said many times, priority is king of XY. The only 'laments' I've heard on Smogon about Breloom are about the Low Sweep buff/nerf to 65 BP, which is generally agreed to be made up for by Rock Tomb's buff in power and accuracy, which gives Breloom an accurate alternative to Stone Edge with only 10 fewer BP but 15 percent more accuracy and a guaranteed Speed drop (and more PP, if that matters to you).

 

[BadAssKoala]

I looked at all the pokemon with infiltrator, and I have to say substitute really wasn't nerfed HARD. First of all as mentioned substitute isn't the most common move to begin with. Granted it does have pokemon that use it but it's not supers common. Now let's look at the pokemon that get infiltrator. I'll start with crobat who's a personal favorite of mine.
Crobat is just about the only pokemon who going to be using infiltrator, but let's face it crobat isn't the best pokemon to begin with. I doubt crobat is going to get higher than UU this gen. That's not even mentioning that most people run bulky support crobat sets. Next is Whimmsicot I garentee you pretty much all of the people using it will go for it's prankster abbility over infiltrator. It's just a better set and a better niche for him.
I'll cover three this time. Jumpluff, Ninjask, and Seviper will see very little use in OU this gen and that's a garentee. These pokemon are either very gimmicky or very week. Next up is Spiritomb I doubt this little ball of evil will get used to much, but he is the only one I see getting much use out if infiltrator. Even then he is pretty subpar and lost his no weakness niche.
I also doubt will see much Malamar or Meowstic usage as one is incredibly mediocre while the other will see more use with its support prankster set. Chandalure enjoys flash fire and flame body to much to use infiltrator, and with its low speed I doubt it would do good with the abbility. Finally Noivern is the third pokemon who can make use of infiltrator. I really only see three pokemon that can use the abbility effectively so to answer your statement no substitute wasn't nerfed.

 

[TerraTF]

I looked at all the pokemon with infiltrator, and I have to say substitute really wasn't nerfed HARD. First of all as mentioned substitute isn't the most common move to begin with. Granted it does have pokemon that use it but it's not supers common. Now let's look at the pokemon that get infiltrator. I'll start with crobat who's a personal favorite of mine.
Crobat is just about the only pokemon who going to be using infiltrator, but let's face it crobat isn't the best pokemon to begin with. I doubt crobat is going to get higher than UU this gen. That's not even mentioning that most people run bulky support crobat sets. Next is Whimmsicot I garentee you pretty much all of the people using it will go for it's prankster abbility over infiltrator. It's just a better set and a better niche for him.
I'll cover three this time. Jumpluff, Ninjask, and Seviper will see very little use in OU this gen and that's a garentee. These pokemon are either very gimmicky or very week. Next up is Spiritomb I doubt this little ball of evil will get used to much, but he is the only one I see getting much use out if infiltrator. Even then he is pretty subpar and lost his no weakness niche.
I also doubt will see much Malamar or Meowstic usage as one is incredibly mediocre while the other will see more use with its support prankster set. Chandalure enjoys flash fire and flame body to much to use infiltrator, and with its low speed I doubt it would do good with the abbility. Finally Noivern is the third pokemon who can make use of infiltrator. I really only see three pokemon that can use the abbility effectively so to answer your statement no substitute wasn't nerfed.

And the Pokemon that utilize Infiltraitor the best need to be built around. For example, Noivern is much better on a Rain team due to high Special Attack and Hurricane. Crobat is really a niche Pokemon mainly used on VoltTurn teams. So really only 2 notable Pokemon would even use infiltraitor to begin with.