Is Chimchar the writers apology for Cyndaquil?

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Cybersai

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Remember back in the Johto days Cyndaquil had trouble getting its flame lit? Ash spent 1 episode training it to help it and it managed to do so. Over the course of Johto it seemed like the writers were building up Cyndaquil to evolve, even hinting at it in some episodes...but it never happened.

Cyndaquil fizzled out completely, and then Charizard made his return for the 8th Gym and the league. Cyndaquil didn't even get a single win in the league and then was abandoned with the other Johto starters never to be seen again. The Johto starters were viewed as the black sheep of Ash's lineup and the writers avoided them like the plague in all the seasons that followed, most likely because they don't want to bring up "bad memories."

Now in DP, Chimchar seems to be in the similar underdog position that Cynda was, except Chimchar is being handled a lot better and is bound to evolve along with the Paul storyline.

Cyndaquil got screwed over by the popularity of Charizard back then and never reached its potential, so do you think Chimchar is the writers giving Ash a second chance to have another fully evolved fire starter? I view Torkoal as more of a reserve Pokemon since it can't evolve and almost took out Registeel.

Basically, does anyone else see his Sinnoh Pokemon as apologies for what his Johto Pokemon never accomplished?
 
Scott, why do you have to make these threads?
If Torkoal can do much MUCH LESS than Cyndaquil, go to Oak for a short time than return and almost beat a legendary - Cyndaquil can do the same
If Ash use his Johto Poké again (which will be likely in case of GSC remakes) remember what I said - they'll be shown as more or less equal to the others generations teams
It's more the fact the writers improve with the time - not really that the Johto Poké deserve to be weaker
 
I'm talking about during the actual saga, not what they might be like if they return.

Cyndaquil had potential during Johto but nothing really happened, remember how everyone wanted Ash with Quilava or Typhlosion? Ash failed to get another fully evolved fire type in Johto, and in Hoenn he didn't get the fire starter so he couldn't get it there.

However now, Chimchar seems to be what Cyndaquil should have been, a meek Pokemon who is the underdog becoming a powerhouse at the end of an arc. I wonder if the writers do this purposely to make up for past missed opportunities?
 
He already have a fully evolved strong fire type
If they need to "make up" for something it's a water starter fully evolved but Pip went to Dawn... maybe next generation
 
Charizard is fully evolved, but it doesn't mean Ash can't get another one.

Its that kind of thinking that screwed over Cyndaquil. The writers probably thought back then Ash had his Charizard, so there was no reason to evolve Cyndaquil. Everyone complained.

This time they can make up for a past misfortune.
 
I just said it seems much more needed to redeem Ash's water starters that didn't evolve at all (Squirtle, Totodile, and while wasn't a starter Corphish that kind of took their place)

I think you exaggerate with it
The writers simply improved so now all the Pokémon have more personality and also evolve more and showcased as stronger
It's not like they specifically made up Chimchar and its story with the intention to "make up for Cyndaquil"
It's more that they learned from all their mistakes and became better
 
Pffftshaaayaaa, what about his water starters? It's always the Fire-type they give attention to, even in the TCG. They're obviously racist writers.
 
I wouldn't say so, only the Johto and Hoenn water starters were treated badly, since Totodile and Mudkip didn't get good screentime. Brock barely battles so Mudkip was screwed, and Totodile got affected by the same Johto writing that Cyndaquil was.

Ash's Squirtle, May's Squirtle, Corphish, Buizel and Dawn's Piplup got plenty of screentime in the show and lots of glory.

There was also Misty and her water pokemon, but she didn't really do much with them in battle aside from Poliwhirl so she doesn't really count. Oh well.
 
You talked about evolution, not screentime
Just stop comparing everything and stop reminding us what you think about Johto again and again
I know I shouldn't tell you what to do but seriously - I'm sure you can understand it might irritate some people...
 
Piplup said:
You talked about evolution, not screentime
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I think it depends on the full potential of the Pokemon. Bulbasaur never evolved, yet it can go toe to toe with some of its evolved counterparts. There are some people who think Bulbasaur and Sceptile are even in strength, and I can see why.

The thing is we know Bulbasaur, Squirtle and Charizard will always come back, they have the nostalgia going for them and the popularity, but we never saw this with the Johto team.

Personally, I really like Chimchar's story and its very similar to Charmander's, so I hope for some good things from it.
 
I'm afraid I must agree with Piplup on this point about the past Johto references and what's going on now. Sure, I was upset about what they did to Cyndaquil, and happy what they did to Chimchar, but hope that they don't ignore it like they did last time.

The writers must've really liked the plot with Charmander so they expanded with Chimchar. It's a fair idea, I must say.
 
well I was sad that cindaquil didn' evolve but I mean what does that has to do with it, plus like piplup said they don't give Ash's water starters much tought, I actually liked Ash to have a feraligater more than a typhlosion.

and how do we know if chimchar would still obey Ash when he evolve considering that it's repeating the same story as charmander.
 
elleryferrer said:
and how do we know if chimchar would still obey Ash when he evolve considering that it's repeating the same story as charmander.
Click to expand...

Yeah, hopefully they don't do that. I don't want to see Monferno pull a Charmeleon, and stop obeying Ash.

That would be too repetitive.
 
Scott85 said:
Yeah, hopefully they don't do that. I don't want to see Monferno pull a Charmeleon, and stop obeying Ash.

That would be too repetitive.
Click to expand...

I've actually thought of that myself. I seriously doubt that the writers would pull something like that since it really wouldn't make sense for one of Ash's Pokemon to stop obeying him. The main reason why it worked back with Charmeleon was the fact that Ash was a total rookie and made rookie mistakes. Considering how much experience he does have now and that no other Pokemon has disobeyed him since Charmeleon and eventually Charizard for awhile, I doubt that they'll do that again.

I honestly thought that Cyndaquil was Ash's best starter out of the three Johto starters. I do agree that Cyndaquil had the potential to evolve, at least into a Quilava, since it was in five of his eight gym battles in Johto. I was always disappointed that it never happened though. Still, I don't see a need to compare Cyndaquil with Chimchar. Chimchar definitely feels like a better fire starter compared to Cyndaquil, but I don't see any other similarities beyond how they're both fire starters. I agree that its more like the writers have learned from their mistakes, in this case the treatment of Ash's fire types, and have become better as a result. Personally, I wouldn't mind if Chimchar evolves or not. While it would be awesome to see Ash with another evolved fire starter, I'd just be happy if Chimchar took down some of Paul's Pokemon in the eventual six-on-six Ash vs. Paul match that's bond to happen in the Sinnoh League.
 
Aside from the fact that they share a type and role as starters in their respective games, I don't see how Chimchar's development is an "apology" for Cyndaquil's.

The reason why Cyndaquil's tenure on the show was so... "blah" was because the entire series was bogged down by filler. They had to strech what would be a single one-year plot over 3 years for the entire Jotho era of games. It wasn't only Cyndaquil that suffered.

Plus Cyndaquil had to deal with the fame and popularity of fan favourite, Charizard. Something Chimchar doesn't need to deal with.
 
PDL said:
Aside from the fact that they share a type and role as starters in their respective games, I don't see how Chimchar's development is an "apology" for Cyndaquil's.
Exactly, I don't see the point of comparing Chimmy to Cyndaquil.

The reason why Cyndaquil's tenure on the show was so... "blah" was because the entire series was bogged down by filler. They had to stretch what would be a single one-year plot over 3 years for the entire Jotho era of games. It wasn't only Cyndaquil that suffered.
Johto had the shortest main plot of all the regions, so Filler was needed to pad it to buy time for 3rd Gen.

Plus Cyndaquil had to deal with the fame and popularity of fan favourite, Charizard. Something Chimchar doesn't need to deal with.
Well, Charizard might make an appearance in the Sinnoh league...
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My thoughts in bold.
 
PDL said:
The reason why Cyndaquil's tenure on the show was so... "blah" was because the entire series was bogged down by filler. They had to strech what would be a single one-year plot over 3 years for the entire Jotho era of games. It wasn't only Cyndaquil that suffered.
Click to expand...

But the question is why didn't the Pokemon develop? Sure Johto had endless repetitive filler, but that doesn't mean we couldn't see Ash's new captures amount to anything.

What kind of legacy did Ash's Johto team leave on the fandom? Ash's Kanto starters, Bulbasaur, Squirtle and Charizard were critically acclaimed by the fanbase and continue to return because the writers know people love them.

The Johto starters get dumped without a goodbye, and abandoned at Oak's lab 6 years ago. Can you believe its been 6 entire years since the three Johto starters or Noctowl have been used?

All of Ash's captures have been used again after the saga they were caught in, the Johto team is the only one that feels like it was completely abandoned.

Everytime Ash's makes a new team, like the Hoenn or Sinnoh teams, the Johto roster is forgotten about even more.

Its gotten to the point where you wonder why those Pokemon were even captured in the first place?
 
Now in DP, Chimchar seems to be in the similar underdog position that Cynda was, except Chimchar is being handled a lot better and is bound to evolve along with the Paul storyline.
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I definitely agree with you on this, but I alos think Piplup is right when he / she asserts:
I think you exaggerate with it
The writers simply improved so now all the Pokémon have more personality and also evolve more and showcased as stronger
It's not like they specifically made up Chimchar and its story with the intention to "make up for Cyndaquil"
It's more that they learned from all their mistakes and became better
Click to expand...
I wouldn't use the term "mistakes", but I would just say that they improved! the old episodes (Johto, Hoenn) weren't bad, but the D/P episodes are even better and are therefore surpassing all previous leagues.
It really pleases me a lot that Ash's current team is obviously handled so well and I hope they'll keep on doing so!
 
I agree, but it always felt to me Ash's Johto starters got treated worse than all the other teams.

Bulbasaur/Squirtle/Charizard lasted 3 seasons, from Kanto, through Orange, through early Johto (with Bulba lasting all the way to mid-Johto!). Likewise, these Pokemon returned numerous times after they left, during the end of Johto for the league and again in AG. They got the best backstories of all of Ash's teams and memorable goodbye episodes, likewise when they return it always feels like a big event. Charizard even got to come back for Movie 3!

In Hoenn, Sceptile, Swellow and Corphish lasted even longer for 4 full years, from the beginning of Hoenn till the end of Battle Frontier. They got the best screentime (so far) and the writers made excellent strides with them. Swellow was the first bird who wasn't a crappy balloon popper but used in real battle, Corphish was one of the funniest Pokemon Ash ever had, and Sceptile had a great personality and was the center of the best character arcs of the region. All three were powerhouses in battle and some of the best battles of the series revolve around them. It was one of the best teams Ash ever had and one of the most memorable.

Now in Sinnoh, his team is still developing, and based what we know so far they're being handled very well. By the time Sinnoh ends this could be the best team yet with good personalities, nice development, and good battles.


...

So now we have the Johto starters. They were only around for two seasons, most of that time not even appearing outside their Pokeballs. You hardly ever notice they're even there when you watch Johto episodes because we almost never saw them. They didn't even do much while they were part of the cast.

Their personalities were simple and nothing to write home about. They never reached their full potential, then they were literally casted aside without even a goodbye scene at all, and left to rot at Oak's labs for 6 years. These Pokemon have been avoided by the writers, they did not get the star treatment Ash's Kanto team had.

For all intents and purposes, they were completely forgettable. At this point it doesn't feel like he even has them. Likewise, they're the weakest of all his teams and the worst developed.

So really, what is their legacy?
 
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