Is pokemon losing its touch?

[Midnightmoon602]

I got this idea from a tread on serebii which i thought it would be nice to share here and discuss the idea as well.

This is what i have to say about it.

At Kanto, we started off with a hot head, a want-to-be pokemon master who still hasn't got near that dream and a wannabe pokemon breeder. in Johto it was pretty much the same except they just added a rival/friend Richie. In Hoenn they dumped Misty back into her little gym and to be never seen until futher notice again and put in May and gave her the rivals and forgot about poor little Ash's rivals. in Sinnoh they said bye bye to May and hello miss 'i like your skirt' Dawn who is just like May and her little group of rivals and gave Ash a new rival with more 'rival personailty' who is now called Paul.

To sum the paragraph above. thoughout Kanto to Johto was the same old dull group. Hoenn to Sinnoh pretty much like Hoeen except the writers gave a new "friend" for Ash.

Most of my friends perfer Kanto-Johto. me? i perfer Hoenn-Sinnoh. Hoenn did lose most of its old pokemon fans since the voices changed halfway though BF and DP rose with a click of the finger. i don't know how this happen. either it was the game itself, the new young pokemon fans growing or that they revived the old touch of pokemon once again.

Okay nearly done. pokemon's touch was big in Kanto, slightly lost in Johto (eg. GS ball) Hoenn just lost it and nearly died. (tell that to the shippers) and DP gained it and might be better then Kanto itself.

So in other words pokemon is like a yo-yo.its gains it touch and loses it and gains it again and you know what i mean.

What about you guys?

 

[J J M]

Re: Is pokemon loseing its touch?

The reason why Kanto was so popular was probably due to the slapstick humor which used to be in the show IMO. And also Pokemon was a fresh new fad. People got emotionally connected to the original trio and, as such, when one character (Misty) got removed, no one liked it and hated the show. The change in voices were probably one other reason.

Right now, the show has greatly improved in terms of battles and general plot but it lacks in the humor department. The eps that are supposed to be funny just doesn't seem all that funny. But the show is still enjoyable regardless.

 

[Shinx3000]

Re: Is pokemon loseing its touch?

I don't know a whole lot, but I think the reason the show went downhill at the beginning of Johto was that the fad died. Pokemon was BIG in Kanto days and even into the Orange Islands saga, but a fad can't last forever and like all fads it came and went, not completly or pokemon would still not be here.

Now at the Advanced series Gen III, they started fresh, tried to do things all over again. I liked Hoenn, from what I did see of it. This might have been why Misty went and was replaced my May and Max.

Ash did not have his team this time when he first appeared in Hoenn, another thing to show that they "started fresh" more so for a new geration of Kids. After the fad died and fans started losing interest, they had to do something. Just having Ash with Pikachu would let fans see how Ash would go about capturing pokemon and challenging the gyms there, something that was ported onto D/P series. Probably why Brock was never there at the start of both sagas either, just Ash and Pikachu.

If you were a new fan to the show and suddenly saw Ash in the new region with pokemon like Charizard/Noctowl etc... what would they think? They'd feel "out of the loop" if you will and might not take to the show.

Older fans complain that older pokemon get "forgotten" when they are Oaked, but they make a return at some point, its like older characters too like Misty or Tracy etc... people complain they are not making any returns either, this is why, the new generation of kids watching the show don't wan't to feel like they mised out something, and anyway there are references to past pokemon, sutuations and people and these are done in such a way that makes sense:

Ash is in a situation like "Dustox crossing" episode or something and this brings back memories of butterfree for Ash, and then Ash would explain o sayawn who did not know Ash then or about his previous non Sinnoh pokemon, how he had a similar situation when he caught a caterpie and it evolved into butterfree and he had to let it go with a pink female butterfree to have eggs and more butterfree.

There is always a rival for Ash, plus the main rival he always had, Gary. The rival is there to push Ash and make him do his best with his pokemon, the way he knows how, like how Paul has been with Ash this series, pushing Ash to be better and better and stronger so he can beat him and prove his strength and this builds character.

Now we know the games and the anime go hand in hand, the anime advertises the games. Ash ahs started with only pikachu in Hoenn and Sinnoh, now this is similar to how your player is in the current game for that region. You start by getting a starter, your only pokemon (anime has Ash and Pikachu) you meet your rival (sort of like how Ash meets female in anime, but he goes with them) then you start catching/training pokemon and challenge gyms and league with your pokedex and items, (what Ash does, catches pokemon from that region and uses them against gyms etc...) so you can see how it goes.

This is what Gen III did, started things this way for the reasons I mentioned above, and its stuck, as it works. Older fans might feel that some things get forgotten (GS ball, Misty, Jigglypuff etc...) but when has the anime been for older fans only?

Kanto had something other series didn't. It was the starting point and this was to test things to see how people would react to it. Like catching pokemon (maybe why a green pokeball was seen as games did not have colour in them days) or animals in anime that were gone in later shows also there was something that Indio league shows had that no other shows did, now I can't put my finger on it, maybe it was because the gang was not as mature as they appear now or that the storyline has become more serious, but its something, there was a lot more fillers in them days "Island of the giant pokemon" "Flame Poke-a-thalon" "Beauty and the beach" etc...

 

[Soundspeed]

Re: Is pokemon loseing its touch?

Yes. Yes it has. It's a little hard to put into words for me, but I'll try my best.

In the beginning, as someone already put it, we are introduced to the character of Ash Ketchum, a brash, inexperienced trainer who knows very little about Pokemon and indeed, the world in general. He is joined by Misty, a hotheaded water Pokemon trainer, and Brock, a young gym leader who serves as the "mentor" figure. A big part of what made much of the original series so great for me was how these three interacted. Their dynamic was the very heart and soul of the show, with Ash undoubtedly making some naive rookie mistake, Misty losing her temper and berating him for it endlessly, and Brock playing peacemaker. And in the end, of course everything would work out, the three would walk off into the sunset as friends, and Ash may have even learned a lesson or two. It was formulaic, sure, but it made the show what it was back then, and that was the show I loved.

Of course, what came along with this dynamic, which I believe has also been brought up, was a good helping of slapstick humor. This can mostly be attributed to Misty, but Pokemon in the beginning had this very lighthearted and whimsical nature that simply is not present anymore. This might be the thing I miss the most, actually. It just seems like a lot of the fun is gone.

Finally, and this is probably the most abstract point of all my rambling, is that the original series just had this sort of heart, this spirit that was so compelling. It was probably due largely to the main cast being so inexperienced and me being so young, but many of the episodes made you feel like you were discovering this amazing, magical world along with the main cast. Encountering the group of Pikachu singing in Pikachu's Goodbye, watching the Diglett make their garden in Dig Those Diglett, seeing Clefairy and Clefable dance around the Moonstone in Clefairy and the Moonstone...it was scenes like those that pulled you in and really engrossed you in this magical world that the writers were trying to create. Put simply, the show had a soul. And I loved it for that.

That is why Pokemon has lost its touch. Much, if not all, of the original spirit is gone. And I'm not sure if it's something they can get back at this point.

</rant>

 

[Insanish Danish]

Re: Is pokemon loseing its touch?

I agree with pretty much everything Soundspeed said. Don't get me wrong, though. I didn't stop watching the show after Misty left or anything like that. I actually enjoy AG and DP a lot, and the characters that both series have brought to the show. However, the magic and lighthearted humor that was present in the first season just isn't there anymore. I'm not one of those Kanto freaks who refuses to watch any of the seasons except for Kanto or anything like that, I just think Kanto is where the true spirit of Pokemon lies. The newer episodes are great, but they don't have the same feeling.

 

[Trainer Lisa]

Re: Is pokemon loseing its touch?

Awesome topic!

And I would love to express my thoughts on this!

However, a while back, someone started an anime thread with a similar question. Unfortunately, this discussion was extremely limited due to the rules of the anime forum. Therefore, I've learned that my opinions on this subject are neither welcome nor allowed here (even though I would simply be answering this question itself, and I have absolutely no intention of causing a flamewar).

So, instead of making a long post about this, I'll have to settle for a short answer.

Yes, I believe the anime has definitely lost its touch. And for me, the Pokemon dub lost its special touch as soon as the VA switch happened. I'd love to go into detail and explain why I feel this way, but unfortunately, that's the best answer I can give you (if you want my fully detailed response, see my post at Serebii).

And by the way, excellent post, Soundspeed! I completely agree with you! ^_^

The newer episodes are great, but they don't have the same feeling.

That's so true. Yep, there's a lot missing in the newer episodes, especially with D/P.

Pokemon definitely had this incredible, magical feeling to it in season one, and even Johto. But nowadays, the show just isn't the same any more, which truthfully, makes me very sad. =(

I mean, sure, D/P is fine. But personally, I don't have that same amazing experience watching D/P, that I always have when I watch every episode of season one/Johto.

 

[P N N K]

Re: Is pokemon loseing its touch?

To be honest, I don`t even like the anime anymore because of what they`ve done with it.

 

[Mooites]

Re: Is pokemon loseing its touch?

^I agree.

Kanto is where Pokemon really is. After Kanto, the show began to change. OI was cool (although Tracey really altered the way the group worked). Johto was long, but there were episodes here and there that were really nice. I thought Hoenn was a good saga, and I really enjoyed most of it. But it didnt have the same innocent feeling of Kanto. I feel that DP has kind of lost the whole magic of Pokemon, and its just gotten caught up in trying to show off new Pokemon.

So thats kind of my analysis on the Pokemon series. I dont dislike everything aftere Kanto, and was and fun show to watch (seasons 2-8 I mean). If you ask me, Kanto was what made Pokemon such a unique and interesting show. And In all honesty, I think they probably should have ended the show after movie 1 D:

And I think the dub switch changed the show (besides voices). I mean, I know most people strongly dislike 4Kids, but I think they did a great job on making Pokemon understandable and amusing for all ages. But I feel that PUSA makes the show more kid-targeted with their dialogue, which changes it for me, since Im not a kid anymore. It could be that the scripts are changing in Japan too, I dont know. Im just saying, some of the new dub stuff is really... different from what I was used to.

 

[Luna Tiger]

Re: Is pokemon loseing its touch?

Ah, guys?

I think the thread is aimed at the /story itself/ involved with the anime. You know, as dictated by the writers, and what they've done. VAs? Not a factor to that formula. No, really, it isn't. A story from a book is still the same story in writing, whether or not it's your mother or father who's reading it out loud to you.

Build an answer around that in mind.

 

[Mooites]

Re: Is pokemon loseing its touch?

^Thats what I was talking about though... How the dub switch was NOT just about the voices ^^;

 

[Trainer Lisa]

Re: Is pokemon loseing its touch?

I mean, I know most people strongly dislike 4Kids, but I think they did a great job on making Pokemon understandable and amusing for all ages. But I feel that PUSA makes the show more kid-targeted with their dialogue, which changes it for me, since Im not a kid anymore. It could be that the scripts are changing in Japan too, I dont know. Im just saying, some of the new dub stuff is really... different from what I was used to.

I completely agree.

I think 4Kids did an excellent job on Pokemon overall. And you're right, Pokemon USA does seem to write the scripts differently. I can't really put my finger on it, but a lot of the characters' lines seem different.

And this is very strange, considering that "the show has the same script writer that it's always had". Yeah, I was told this by Tom Wayland himself.

As for the story? I'm perfectly fine with Pokemon's story, because technically, it's always been the same since season one. I mean, Ash is still getting badges, participating in leagues, and most importantly, working towards his goal of becoming a Pokemon Master. And that's one thing about the anime which is never gonna change.

 

[Cybersai]

Re: Is pokemon loseing its touch?

Kanto did have a different feeling about it than all the other sagas.

But as saying, that stopped as soon as Orange Islands began. OI didn't feel anything like Kanto, and once Johto began the show just became a filler-fest.

While I enjoy the newer seasons, I do wish the show kept the kind of zany humor Kanto had. Its about the only thing I miss from the start of the show.

 

[Collin]

Re: Is pokemon loseing its touch?

For me It's mostly because they always change the girl. That, and because we didn't even get a cameo from Leaf. Don't get me wrong, I like Dawn. I think she's an interesting character and a good addition to the show's cast but... They set Ash up with a girl only to lose most contact with her and find a new one and they'll always be a contest goer. The one exception is Misty. Another problem is Ash. He's changed for the better, but it's too big of a change. I personally think they should have made Ash take that job as a frontier brain, as that would bring a nice close to his story, and a nice opening to another trainer's. Pikachu might be another problem, he has to at least be level 90 by now, as my average level per region for a wild pokemon by the end of the game is 40, so with three regions down and one almost over if Ash trains as hard as me, which he probably does since I try to avoid battles, that's one experienced Pikachu.

 

[Luna Tiger]

Re: Is pokemon loseing its touch?

^Thats what I was talking about though... How the dub switch was NOT just about the voices ^^;

There's a difference between "VA switch" and "dub switch". You said "dub switch" which incorporates the entire move between companies. PTL said "VA switch", and blatantly indicated that her reply would have been about "how the voices themselves changed (whatever)", implied that if she had answered the question, she would be violating that ever so recent Golden Rule, and that's the sort of response I was aiming at.

The minute scripts are irrelevant (spoken dialogue, whether English or Japanese), I find, when it comes to the greater picture between regions (the action). Each region has it's own feel when it comes to the story plots it incorporated. Again, that's where the OT seems to be aiming at, discussion why.

How each company translated and serviced the original script? Not the issue. Nor does it ultimately make the story. There's a progressive flow of /story/. How they are handling each region is obviously different from each other: Kanto was all about the boy with a dream...the OI was a sham to kill time and focused more on interpersonal development (that failed), Johto tried so hard to recreate Kanto as well as add a few subplots here and there (the GS ball was not a OI plotline, even if it started there), but failed to do more than set up Hoenn as the great reset button.

Hoenn did try to recapture Kanto, and succeeded until it changed its focus to hit the Aqua/Magma plot, which flopped.

Kanto 2.0 gave us a slightly different aspect to focus on: a break from the usual dream (and managed what OI failed at when it came to the quest).

And when it comes to Sinnoh, they're doing the story they wanted for Hoenn /right/. They're pacing it very well, they're giving us very well-established repeat offenders that...don't drop out of thin air like Ken&Mary did, who gave no indication of a return, where J at least left the potential to.

 

[Trainer'sInsomnia]

Re: Is pokemon loseing its touch?

I think there are 3 major things that probably knocked off at least some degree of fans along the way:

Johto: The fillers of the saga. I think for most, this wouldn't have happened until later, when people got tired of tuning in every week, only to find that nothing was really going on in the episode.

Hoenn: Let's face it, this was the start of many, many changes. Some people don't adapt well to change, or some people simply may not have liked what these changes were. There were bound to be those who didn't receive this well.

Mid/Late Hoenn: When the dub changed. A lot of people, like it or not, probably considered this the nail in the coffin for Pokemon.
-----

Personally, I agree with the TS in that Sinnoh has definitely picked things up again. So I'd actually consider it the exact opposite of losing touch. There've been major improvements in this season compared to seasons past.

Kanto was really special in its own right. It's certainly got its own feeling to it, and definitely hit the mark for a very good season. One thing that everyone could enjoy about it, is that it was a concise season that did not drag on. The majority of the season had purpose (other than showing off Pokemon from that generation) and consisted of some kind of important or relative event. And when it didn't, the fillers weren't bad. It seems they've managed to do the same thing with Sinnoh now, only this time, there're more episodes to its name.
---

And more closely regarding what the topic poster is getting at (I think), the format of things certainly has changed. I'm not just talking about the obvious adjustments like adding contests, etc... No, but just the general story development and flow of the show has definitely shifted. Though, again, I think Sinnoh's recapturing, to a degree, the feel that Kanto had. It's quite not the same, and it won't be. But it's definitely taking the finer points. Whereas you had a season like OI, which came directly after Kanto, but almost didn't even feel related.

 

[Lethal Carnivine]

Re: Is pokemon loseing its touch?

I don't think it's losing it's touch.

Like others have said, Kanto was a wonderful starting point for Pokemon and everything. It made me a little excited every day to see what antics the twerps and TR were going to get into. 4Kids(to me anyways) seemed to be at their prime.

However, as we get into Johto(OI wasn't too bad), the problem was trying to watch so many episodes with the same concept. If it wasn't for TR, most likely I would have quit during Johto. So, it lost some touch there.

However with Hoenn/BF/Sinnoh they tried to deviate from those formula like-epsiodes which makes me appreciate the twerps more than in Johto(where I'd FF their parts just to get TR). There is a lot more effort put into plots and everything which overall picks up Johto's mess.

 

[kakuna]

Re: Is pokemon loseing its touch?

I think it just went downhill for me because Ash never shows improvement anymore.
In Kanto he started as a kid who knew nothing of the world and was just learning to do what he loved. (like me when I was little)He failed often, but he always tried his hardest hoping for the future.
But as the series progressed and Ash matured it all just feels like he will never make his dreams come true. He has been at it for so long and he has grown so much that the show just makes it feel like Ash just plainly isn't good enough. He is always great but there is always someone better than him, no matter how hard he tries.

 

[Musashi]

Re: Is pokemon loseing its touch?

I always feel out of place in topics like this, but I'll post my thoughts anyway.

I only gave the anime a real chance when DP started, so I can't really reflect as well on how its changed. But I will start out by saying I do love Kanto. After 12 years it still has that fun charm to it that you can just watch the episodes again and again.

But I'd have to say that pokemon is at its peak, story quality wise, right now. Look at where the dub and Japanese were this week:

There was the end of the awesome Iron Island two-parter, with some great actually threatening villains and some near death stuff all the while a Team Rocket Pokemon learned a new attack, fans could fangasim over Lucario AND the awesome person known as Berry. That's quite a lot to cram in, not to mention that the character focus was spread out relatively well, and it didn't feel like anyone got shafted. (I'm counting Team Rocket as one entity)

And the Japanese version... wow is all I can say. Another end of a two-parter, and what an end it was. This was a league quality battle with some excellent Satoshi/Shinji moments, some really great music choices, and Rocket fans got thrown a bone as well. I can't go on as long, simply because Im not good at describing battle stuff, but this was even better than the above episode.

So what I'm trying to say is, Pokemon has changed for the better IMO. If both versions are airing high quality episodes at the same time, that should tell you something.

 

[Lil Brother]

Re: Is pokemon loseing its touch?

Yeah, I miss the exaggerated humor of Kanto and the characters' childish arguing. That's pretty much the one thing "Kanto 1.0" has over the later years (well, that and the fact that it was first).

People seem to think different = bad, but I rather like how each region has its own distinct feeling to it. It gives the series this feeling of being a tapestry of different storylines and situations that make for a surprisingly large, varied whole.

And Sinnoh really is the best story arc so far imo. So much character drama, mythology, and continuity... I love it. <3 This is what I wanted the series to be when I was seven years old.

 

[Piplup]

Re: Is pokemon loseing its touch?

Pokémon is only getting better with the time
Anyone who deny this is blinded by nostalgia
If you ignore the nostalgia and personal opinions, just go by plot/character development/etc - every saga is better than the previous one (yes, Johto is better than Kanto/OI, people here got used to randomly hate Johto but it wasn't nearly as bad as they make it)

I laugh at how people even try to say Kanto was the best
Ash gets badges for no reason, Pokémon are mostly tools rather than characters, Ash being the only star and we only have his one Gyms plot, Ash being stupid, most of battles not exciting at all, no Contests or any other second plot, no character development... what we did have there?!

Johto made Ash a little more mature, he also got better in battles and began to actually win most of his badges the right way, they began to try and give the Poké some personality but still didn't do that right, they realized from now on they'll have to make each "main" saga 3 years long and began to check out how to it (the later part of Johto was just GREAT, and the earlier parts aren't as bad as people make them sound like)

AG was a true fresh beginning where the writers corrected most of their past mistakes, but since a lot of things they tried for the first time now - obviously not everything turned out as good as it should have been

Ash became more mature and experienced trainer (which is so much more entertaining character to watch than the "old Ash", at least for me)
We got an equal heroine star with plot of her own additionally to Ash's Gyms
Pokémon Contests debuted and gave us a little different take on Pokémon than the usual
Most of the battles were great
Most of the Poké were true characters with personality and development of their own
Characters actually got character development (Ash, May, some of their Poké)
We got some interesting character interactions (Ash/May, Ash/Max, May/Drew, May/Harley...)
They finally tried to make some kind of plot with the evil teams from the games... it didn't turn out so good but until the ending, most of the eps were nice

BF was just amazing
It continue all what Hoenn gave us and kind of felt like actually part of or continuation of Hoenn, so there's not much to add than what I said about Hoenn
Maybe the fact it was a short saga made it seem a little more exciting since we jumped from brain battle to the next one and the same with Contests

DP used AG's formula but fixed everything
Dawn was actually showcased as really equal to Ash (unlike May that felt more like most-important-after)
Ash got a rival, and one that is completely the opposite of him that appears a lot and their interaction is just great - the best rival this show had and it's ridiculous to try and deny this
We also got Barry which is great as Ash's second rival since unlike Paul he's energetic and loud... and he's Barry - so he's awesom and you love him
Dawn's rivals aren't as interesting but I like Zoey and her interactions with Dawn and her little backstory with Glameow
Foreshadowing and build up of things rather than randomly doing them - The Aipom/Buizel trade actually began its build up since BF, Ash getting Chimchar got build up for a whole year from DP's beginning until it happened and so on...
And unlike some others I think Galactic is handled great especially when you count J too - it's just as much as this show needs to evil teams, I see no need to overshowcase them like others want
We also got a lot of unexpected things (Dawn not passing the performance, main characters trade....)
The battles are better than ever and most of the Gyms were really great (especially Veilstone)

I know a lot will try to argue now but I think that if you ignore personal opinion it's obvious Pokémon is only getting better with the time

EDIT: forgot Orange, well... there's no much to say really - just that it was nice to see the writers try to be original and not follow the games and Gyms like they always do