Israel

[The Big Al]

Since this is off topic in the thread it's in, I made a new thread for it.

Since when is hostage capture and border attacks the proper attitude of a country at peace with Israel? I am not saying that Israel has not gotten carried away in that war. Being at a semi state of war with many nations for decades can do that to you, although not a excuse.

Carried away is an understatement. That's the first time I've seen indiscriminate bombing being part of a rescue campaign.

Restricted in their movements, and cannot bare arms, do either of these have to deal with the numerous suicide bombings and rocket attacks? Not to mention while you say they cannot bear arms, its almost laughable to think that they do not bear arms. As to right to property, that along with the right to bear arms, at least at first looks to be something more at issue with the Palestinian Government than the Israeli Government. Now onto Infrastructure. How much does that have to do that much of their infrastructure such as piping usually used for water, is dug up and used to make rockets?

I think this illustrates how thoroughly Israel's policy towards the Palestinians has failed. Supposedly all this is to stop militants, however, the militants easily circumvent it. In the meantime, law abiding Palestinians have found themselves severely restricted in their ability to move about and do commerce.

I'm not even talking about piping. It starts with something as visible as the roads. Palestinians are forced to use different roads than the Israelis that are barely paved, barely see any upkeep, and are frequently and arbitrarily blocked off.

That seems to be more of a problem of locals getting out of trouble than the actual Government. Lets also not forget that the Palestinians are not innocent in this either. They have committed horrible atrocities to the point of using and encouraging children to be human bombs. And that is just the tip of the ice burg.

Once again you are lumping the militants in with the general population. This is what is happening in the West Bank while the militants are mostly in the Gaza Strip. Now, I'll say not every settler is a hooligan since I've just gotten on you for generalizing. However, the Palestinians are terrorized just as much as Israelis only with less big explosions and it doesn't make through the filter of American media as well.

 

[Eredar Warlock]

I have a question for you.

Israel, or Iran?

Despite what you may think, that is the question. You cannot, in any way, shape, or form, ignore the existential threat Iran has posed.

 

[Fig]

Support of Israel against Iran (even if it were really a two-choices-only choice, of which I am not altogether convinced, despite your saying so at every turn) is no reason not to take a harsh stance on Israel's own crimes.

We may support their right to survive without supporting their every policy, and even while condemning many of their policies.

 

[H-con]

Israel, or Iran?

That's easy. None. I, for one, cannot support Israel if they attack Iran, and I can't suppport Iran if they attack Israel. Both countries have serious issues to handle before I'm going to support either one. But Israel cannot simply attack Iran and still expecting US support. If Iran attacked Israel, maybe so, but you know what would happen to the US if they joined in (another) war of aggression.

 

[Big Lutz]

Carried away is an understatement. That's the first time I've seen indiscriminate bombing being part of a rescue campaign.

Except it wasn't just a rescue campaign it was retaliation after years of being provoked.

I think this illustrates how thoroughly Israel's policy towards the Palestinians has failed. Supposedly all this is to stop militants, however, the militants easily circumvent it. In the meantime, law abiding Palestinians have found themselves severely restricted in their ability to move about and do commerce.

I do feel bad for the law abiding Palestinians but Israel does have a right to look out for their own security. Has the Palestinian efforts failed? Yes, and those efforts include giving up land to try to appease them. At this point there is nothing that will stop the Palestinian militants. And their continued actions do more to hurt their own people than Israel or the US or anyone else.

Yet just to be nuanced, have the militants circumvented it easily? Well Suicide Bombings are not anywhere near what they used to be in Israel, especially since the wall and stepped up security measures. I would say they are having a harder time circumventing it.

I'm not even talking about piping. It starts with something as visible as the roads. Palestinians are forced to use different roads than the Israelis that are barely paved, barely see any upkeep, and are frequently and arbitrarily blocked off.

If the roads are in Palestine then its up to the Palestinian Government to maintain those roads. If they are in Israel then it is up to Israel to maintain them. That being said, I believe its plain as day to see why they would have them take different roads.

Once again you are lumping the militants in with the general population. This is what is happening in the West Bank while the militants are mostly in the Gaza Strip. Now, I'll say not every settler is a hooligan since I've just gotten on you for generalizing. However, the Palestinians are terrorized just as much as Israelis only with less big explosions and it doesn't make through the filter of American media as well.

You do realize they do this via TV right? They have television shows and propaganda aimed toward children suicide bombers. They have even had children on there as young as 11 calling for fellow children to kill themselves for the cause. Is it only in the West Bank? I don't know, I severely doubt it seeing the production value of the show and the resources needed to keep it up. Granted I believe the Hamas Summer Camps are only in the West Bank.

As for Palestine being terrorized just as much as Israel, no. Even before this latest war between them last Winter. Palestine continues to lob thousands of rockets toward Israel, with out any retaliation, even though they are breaking the cease fire. If anything Israel restrains itself far more than it should. And I should remind you that a vast majority of the rocket attacks upon Israel do not make it throught the American media EITHER.

With that I will leave you with a transscript of 2 11 year old girls on Palestinian Television ( The Production Values, and outside shot of a large city suggest its not the West Bank )

Interviewer: You described Shahada as something beautiful. Do you think it is beautiful?

Walla: Shahada is a very beautiful thing. Everyone yearns for Shahada. What could be better than going to paradise?

Interviewer: What is better, peace and full rights for the Palestinian people or Shahada?

Walla: Shahada. I will achieve my rights after becoming a shahid. We won't stay children forever.

Interviewer: Ok, Yussra, would you agree with that?

Yussra: Of course. It is a good [sweet] thing. We don't want this world, we want the Afterlife. We benefit not from this life but from the Afterlife. All Palestinians, not like other youth, are hot tempered, they choose Shahada, since they are Palestinian.

Interviewer: Do you actually love death?

Yussra: Death is not Shahada.

Interviewer: No, I mean the absence after death, the physical absence, do you love death?

Yussra: No child loves death. The children of Palestine adopted the concept that this is Shahada. They believe that Shahada is very good. Every Palestinian child, say someone aged 12, says, O Lord, I would like to become a shahid.

shahids: people who die for Allah
Shahada: death for Allah

 

[Netto Azure]

I'm not going to fully support every single policy that Israel gives since there is a gray area in the whole conflict. I'm more than willing to support Israel's right to exist but don't always think that you're always right.

Heck the whole Saudi Arab plan of getting Israel to retreat to it's pre-1967 borders and gaining recognition from 10 or so Arab countries shows us the general idea of the future (if ever) Israeli-Palestinian peace treaty

 

[TTEchidna]

Israel or Iran? That's like asking "Which country would be better off nuking the world during the 80's, the US or the USSR?". Both suck. I'd rather their politicians stopped being ridiculously unreasonable about everything and just admit to each other that they have the bomb. Pakistan and India hate each other, so they both developed nukes. Israel has 'em already (bad move, France), and Iran's developing them to deter a first strike. If the US and USSR could move beyond the Cold War and open talks with each other without going back on their word time and time again (even with the collapse resulting in Russia and a plethora of other states), Iran and Israel can stop being such assholes to each other and admit to themselves that they would rather not have a nuclear winter and make a few concessions than have one and declare themselves the winners.

 

[The Big Al]

Israel or Iran? I choose neither. I already said I'm tempted to say America should beat Israel to the punch if Iran's nuclear research must be crippled. I trust the American military to do what has to be done and nothing more.

As the others have said, Israel does have a right to exist. However, I don't support their policy towards people both living inside and outside their borders.

 

[Snake Bandage]

Technically, since I'm Israeli, I should be participating in this discussion.

However, I hate being Israeli as is and I'm sick and tired of acting as my stupid country's advocate on the Internet. So screw it, I'm not playing this game anymore. Maybe I'll get back to it after I leave this country and won't know a thing about Israel's policies like all the other non-Israelis.

 

[YodaTux]

That's easy. None. I, for one, cannot support Israel if they attack Iran, and I can't suppport Iran if they attack Israel. Both countries have serious issues to handle before I'm going to support either one. But Israel cannot simply attack Iran and still expecting US support. If Iran attacked Israel, maybe so, but you know what would happen to the US if they joined in (another) war of aggression.

I agree with you H-con. While I would like to see our (America) forces support Israel, if attacked first. I do not support us (America) going into another war for Israel. If Israel feels the need to go after Iran, that was Israel's choice... not the U.S.

 

[Terra Force]

Israel or Iran? That's like asking "Which country would be better off nuking the world during the 80's, the US or the USSR?". Both suck. I'd rather their politicians stopped being ridiculously unreasonable about everything and just admit to each other that they have the bomb. Pakistan and India hate each other, so they both developed nukes. Israel has 'em already (bad move, France), and Iran's developing them to deter a first strike. If the US and USSR could move beyond the Cold War and open talks with each other without going back on their word time and time again (even with the collapse resulting in Russia and a plethora of other states), Iran and Israel can stop being such assholes to each other and admit to themselves that they would rather not have a nuclear winter and make a few concessions than have one and declare themselves the winners.

USSR, because they were just plain better than us!

I go with Israel.

EDIT: Iran is at a new low with shitty lines like "We can't let Israel exist 'the Holocaust never happened.'".

The Holocaust was a horrible event caused a pychopath I often dub "A-Douche Shitler".

 

[Phoenicks]

If the US and USSR could move beyond the Cold War and open talks with each other without going back on their word time and time again (even with the collapse resulting in Russia and a plethora of other states), Iran and Israel can stop being such assholes to each other and admit to themselves that they would rather not have a nuclear winter and make a few concessions than have one and declare themselves the winners.

The US and USSR only became open to talks after decades of conflict. Even then, we were able to negotiate with the USSR because Ronald Reagan initiated a massive military buildup that squeezed the Soviets. They couldn't keep up economically or militarily.

 

[TTEchidna]

Well you can't just claim Reagan alone did it. Sure, he pressured them, but they saw how much the system sucked and they wanted to make it less totalitarian, and that just resulted in everything falling apart.

 

[Netto Azure]

If we're going to talk about the fall of the USSR, then I'm going to give Gorbachev his piece of ending the Cold War through reforms. =P