Jesus Alliance

[Ash's Pika Pal]

This club is about the Lord Jesus Christ and anything else related to the Bible. It doesn't matter if it's God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Revalations, prayer requests or how the stories went. Whatever topic you want, just make things peaceful and rated G (in other words no debating).

I'm not exactly sure where to start off, but in time with, Jesus's help, we can get some really good topics!

So, where would anyone like to start off?

Rules
No bashing of another person's religion
Be respectful

Any questions about Jesus, His teachings or anything related?
If you have any questions you're more than welcomed to ask! I will or someone else will try to answer your question/s, so there's no need to be shy! n_~

What a mod says about this club

I don't think moving this entire thread to the Debate forum would work. This thread is essentially for Christians to discuss Jesus' life and ministry, and for those curious about Christianity to ask questions. The key word here is discuss, not debate.

If you want to debate, make a thread there with a specific subject. Example: Ralli's posts about Jesus' teachings could be the subject: "Does Jesus Christ condone violence?" or "Does the New Testament support sectarian violence/jihadism?" The narrower the focus, the easier it will be to stay on topic and not simply post that you hate all religion, all Christians, all Muslims, or whatever.

Because this club has the potential to devolve into a flamewar, here are some ground rules:
1. Absolutely no flaming. First poster who declares all Christians are idiots/brainwashed/stupid or whatever gets permabanned. I'm dead serious. I'm so sick of seeing this across forums on the Internet. If you can't make a substantial post with rational and logical arguments or points and without ad hominems, then you fail at the internet and should STFU.
2. If you have a legitimate question or concern about Christianity or Christians, ask nicely. Disrespecting others' beliefs gets you infraction points which, if accumulated, gets you banned. Oh, and please don't feed the trolls (which threads like these inevitably get).
3. Everyone is welcome, provided they follow the rules.

There are two clubs on SPP called 'alliances', one for Christians and the other for atheists. They're basically threads where like-minded people can post without having to defend themselves every other post. That is what this club should be modeled after.

 

[Turtle Tamer Kammy]

Hmmm, interesting... how do you feel about karma and Jesus?

 

[Dr. Peppa]

Can people who don't believe in Jesus come here and discuss the topics with you?

 

[Ino-Chan]

How about symbolism and actual happenings of Jesus.

 

[Turtle Tamer Kammy]

Why don't you guys just go to the Soap Box section?

 

[Ash's Pika Pal]

Hmmm, interesting... how do you feel about karma and Jesus?

I don't know much about karma ;n_n.

Can people who don't believe in Jesus come here and discuss the topics with you?

Hmm.... well since Jesus never turned anyone away when He was on this earth, even if you don't believe in him, you can come discuss the topics. ^_^ Let's keep it peaceful though. Infact He taught to love everyone, no matter what.

Oh yes can we?

As, long as there's no fighting and things are peaceful.

How about symbolism and actual happenings of Jesus.

What do you mean about "symbolism and actual happenings of Jesus"?

 

[the gadfly]

What about an atheist like me? (Yes, APP, I'm an atheist although you might have thought otherwise.) Can I join?

Fair warning: I'm no slouch arguing against religion. The way I see it, if somebody can refute me, it will strengthen the Lord's position.

 

[Ash's Pika Pal]

Sure, Gadfly you may join.

As, for the arguing.... I've seen the arguments in the debate forum and they're not pretty. Maybe we should mainly let this club be about His teachings or any questions on Him/ His teachings. But, you can ask instead of debate, ok? That way this stays more of a club than a debate place.

 

[Perxio]

Sure, Gadfly you may join.

As, for the arguing.... I've seen the arguments in the debate forum and they're not pretty. Maybe we should mainly let this club be about His teachings or any questions on Him/ His teachings. But, you can ask instead of debate, ok? That way this stays more of a club than a debate place.

Problem is, you can't talk about Jesus's teachings because virtually all of them are contradicted by other ones. He speaks about resisting violence, and then teaches about causing it. He teaches peace, but declares that he didn't come among man to bring peace, but "to bring a sword". It's impossible to ignore any contradiction, because it's just out of the question to ever throw one out the window so your preferred one prevails- it doesn't, because, again, he often contradicted it. That's the problem about talking about his teachings. You can't expect a debate not to pop up because anything he said contradicted anything else he said, and people want to make one more important than another or try to twist them.

I definitely understand wanting to have a club that doesn't spiral into a debate, but considering the things I mentioned before, it's inevitable. He said as much bad as good, not to mention the rest of the Bible. :\

 

[Ash's Pika Pal]

Problem is, you can't talk about Jesus's teachings because virtually all of them are contradicted by other ones. He speaks about resisting violence, and then teaches about causing it. He teaches peace, but declares that he didn't come among man to bring peace, but "to bring a sword". It's impossible to ignore any contradiction, because it's just out of the question to ever throw one out the window so your preferred one prevails- it doesn't, because, again, he often contradicted it. That's the problem about talking about his teachings. You can't expect a debate not to pop up because anything he said contradicted anything else he said, and people want to make one more important than another or try to twist them.

I definitely understand wanting to have a club that doesn't spiral into a debate, but considering the things I mentioned before, it's inevitable. He said as much bad as good, not to mention the rest of the Bible. :\

Well, the "sword" was the word of God, not an actual sword. When did he teach about causing violence?

 

[Perxio]

Well, the "sword" was the word of God, not an actual sword. When did he teach about causing violence?

*sigh* Didn't want to have to do this, but you asked:

Matthew 10:34 (King James Version)

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Luke 22:36 (King James Version)

36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Luke 19:27 (King James Version)

27But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Luke 14:26 (King James Version)

26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Romans 13:1-4 (King James Version)

1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

1 Peter 2:13-14 (King James Version)

13Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

14Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

^^ Mentioned because this would include submitting to tyranny and dictatorship, such as having to obey Hitler, Mussolini, etc, who weren't really ones for peace and they and those like them, so long as they are in power, are automatically accepted- and are apparently condoned by Jesus and by God.

Luke 12:47 (King James Version)

47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Matthew 10:35-36 (King James Version)

35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

John 2:15 (King James Version)

15And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

^ He was angry about things being sold in the temple and pretty much it being used for anything but worship, it being God's shrine and house and all, but it's unnerving that he'd throw a violent fit as opposed to peacefully dealing with this. Even performing some miracle to get them out of there, since it probably would be unlikely that the merchants and folks around would clear the way just because he said so.

Matthew 13:41-42 (King James Version)

41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity

42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mark 9:43 (King James Version)

43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched

John 15:6 (King James Version)

6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Matthew 12:30 (King James Version)

30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

---

I think that's enough for now. Meh. Sorry. Keep in mind that I know he's said good things, but I was asked what the bad was. This is the tip of the iceberg, and only what Jesus said or did (left out the hissy fit over a fig tree not bearing fruit out of season, that wasn't much on hate or violence).

---

Edit: Editted to make it slightly easier to read. TL;DR.

 

[Ash's Pika Pal]

26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


Referring to if a man loves one of the above mentioned MORE than Jesus. Of course he doesn't literally mean hate them. Yes, I know it's kind of weird to say it like that, but remember, this was 2000 years ago. They spoke differently back then, and I don't just mean their language. They could have just used more serious similes I suppose to get the point across.



13Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

14Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

^^ Mentioned because this would include submitting to tyranny and dictatorship, such as having to obey Hitler, Mussolini, etc, who weren't really ones for peace and they and those like them, so long as they are in power, are automatically accepted- and are apparently condoned by Jesus and by God

Yes, you submit yourselves to authority, unless they go AGAINST God's teachings. It is referring to the good leaders, hence where it says "punishment of evildoers."



Luke 12:47 (King James Version)

47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Taken out of context. If you would've read around it, you would see that they were talking about a story about a servant and what his master would do to him. Does that mean Jesus condones it? Sure doesn't look like it to me.

John 2:15 (King James Version)

15And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

^ He was angry about things being sold in the temple and pretty much it being used for anything but worship, it being God's shrine and house and all, but it's unnerving that he'd throw a violent fit as opposed to peacefully dealing with this. Even performing some miracle to get them out of there, since it probably would be unlikely that the merchants and folks around would clear the way just because he said so.

Let's see here - your Father's temple, the God of all Creation and ruler of all, is being turned into a mockery for
sinful people to sell stuff just to make money. The temple is HOLY. Of course he'd be upset! There's a thing
called "righteous anger" you know.

Matthew 13:41-42 (King James Version)

41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity

42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Talking about the Judgment. Yeah, that's how it's gonna be. Sorry it's not all pretty - what else would you expect to happen to sinful men like Hitler? :/

Mark 9:43 (King James Version)

43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched


Think about it, let's say your hand causes you to sin constantly (like inappropriate actions, maybe shooting people, etc) of course it'd be
better to suffer temporary pain here on earth than keep your hand and go to Hell forever.


John 15:6 (King James Version)

6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

You need to realize that these men who don't abide in Him are living in sin - yes, they will go to Hell because
they deliberately chose not to obey Him and take his gift of eternal life.

Matthew 12:30 (King James Version)

30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

You're either on God's side or Satan's. There's no inbetween.




Now, please can we get on with one of His teachings? I honestly don't want this to break out into an argument.

Hey! What about this one? John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. (King James Version)

So, what does everyone think about that teaching?

 

[Rayne]

I must commend you for your steadfastness in both maintaining and defending this thread Ash's Pika Pal. A part of the learning experience comes from clarification and understanding of the differing perspectives each side may have. But with this, especially in a thread about God and religion on an international forum, debates are near inevitable. Of course, the main idea is to keep the thread civil, and as long as that is maintained, I believe this thread should be fine.

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. (King James Version)

So, what does everyone think about that teaching?

That is a passage I hold dear to me, as I find my friends more valuable to me than anything else I own. Yeah, that sounds a bit cliche, but for every friend, I find a unique value in our relationship that I cherish as part of my own being. That value often being the love I share with friends and that I actively strive to preserve those bonds. Bear in mind that Christ also taught to us to treat our companions as though we were with the Lord himself.

Matthew 25:40 (New American Bible) And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'

This love is symbolic of laying down our life for the sake of Christ and his teachings, that we'd be willing to go so far to defend Christ's word is a true testament of one's faith and willingness to follow. Wouldn't any of you go so far as to defend or stand up for a friend in trouble or need? I certainly couldn't refuse. Even if I can't fully help a friend in a moment of need, I feel better knowing I gave it my all.

Also, maybe a quoting standard should be employed to make references clear. You don't have to follow through, but it might be helpful for instance, like the discussion between you and Ralli.

 

[Perxio]

*shrug* What can I say, I had to make the point that not all of what Jesus said or did was particularly worthy of adoration, as was made clear in the things I quoted, though there are others. A couple can be twisted, but virtually all of them- insisting for his enemies to be murdered, even so far as before him, and so on- are indisputable. Of course, I honestly can't say that they're all really, absolutely true: not just the negative, but the positive. Whether we like it or not, the entries- even original, untranslated transcripts- were all passed down, recopied, even omitted. Should there be a God, it's almost certain to say that His word can not be taken literally, word by word, letter by letter, from the Bible, because the Church has always had its moments (more like centuries: i.e. the Crusades, the Inquisition, 'the White Man's Burden', and smaller movements against witches, homosexuality, and basically anything different) of corruption. People have always, always corrupted anything to suit themselves, and because religion is one of the most powerful forces out there to drive people, it goes without saying that any one of these people could have switched around or even made up parts in it. Things have been taken out, edited, and more than likely changed to suit the times, namely in the New Testament.

This goes both ways: it's hard to comprehend how anyone can take it literally to the very letter, whether it be the bad or the good. Especially since both were influenced by previous mindsets, religions, cultures, etc- Christianity was not the first to teach benevolence, nor was it the first, in the cases I brought up, to encourage violence. But I do think that if people insist on taking it all literally, they must take the bad literally, not what they want to focus on and deny the rest. If you do the more big-picture thing, that's far better- the radicals (you people don't want to know what the big-time evangelicals do under covers, I kid you not- I've lost faith in humanity from reading these, though then again, that was dwindling before then- long story) are almost always the ones who take it literally. I'm all for the big, better picture. It just burns me up to no end that people ignore the bad (I nearly bashed my head to a desk when some girl in one of my classes last year exclaimed in horror and shock "A CHRISTIAN KILLED SOMEONE?!?!?@312"), that their faith has never been sparked fault, or has no fault, that it's the only one that has ever taught something, etc.

If anything, God had instilled in man the knowledge and capability to do all that He passed on through His word, the second they were created, and so didn't need to be taught- especially if they were made in His image, if one takes it in a metaphorical sense, like having the capacity for these. More like reminded. Surely this can't be disagreed upon, but it happens (especially among the evangelicals).

For the record, I am in no way saying I'm wrong. Because as far as we're concerned, the Bible's the end-all for Christianity: it's what it's based on, it's their guidebook and what they insist to be the guidebook to anyone. But this guidebook has been passed down to be written and rewritten by innumerable people. It can't be trusted. You'd get nowhere if you went word by word because it goes in circles, dead-ends, mistakes, all sorts of things. What I was pointing out here is the fault in taking it all seriously, and really wanting to add that Jesus was not the first to teach anything about goodness. The Bible is filled with a lot of inaccuracies, vulgarity (my favorite is the mentioning of penises, circumcision, foreskins, etc. 157 times in it, but again, tip of the iceberg), and contradictions. I'd say more that the Bible is a prime example of mankind's mind wrapped into one big...weird...thing. We all have an amazing capacity for good, and even more for bad, and can too easily swing to the latter. We're confused creatures, we've a desire to be led and feel protected, we've a fear for the unknown and the want to disregard or punish the different, we're flawed, we're good, we're bad, we're horrendously cruel, we're compassionate, we're vulgar, we're violent, we're fascinated by our own dark natures but still want the feel of being special and chosen. That's basically what I've gathered from it, so technically it's what I learned from the teachings and the whole thing.

Edit: More record-keeping: I was raised a devout Christian, attended church my whole life, and had it be the center of my "education" and summers for several years, and had all the little kid entertainment with religion- the cute storybooks, the kid Bibles, the videos, the music, the coloring books, the traditions, the activities, everything. Even then, when I had absolutely NO outside influence on what to believe, when I was little, for as long as I can remember, I was always thinking "...wait, what? but you said-" This lasted for a long, long time. I was never "corrupted". Nothing happened to make me question it. I had been convinced before anything bad happened- the divorce of my parents, the loss of pets, the loss of family, the moment of realization that all kids go through that the world isn't all flowers and smiley-faced sunshine and lambs. This was all much later. It wasn't even an option in my mind to think otherwise. So I'm free of any "well shit how can we trust her she was probably raised by heathen pagan violent radicals wanting to destroy babeh Jesus and blah" accusations. Obviously I wouldn't get it here, that's clear to me. But ooooh boy, believe me, I'd get it anywhere else.

 

[the gadfly]

Oh man, I wish this thread was in The Soap Box sub-forum. I would nurture it like an attentive parent. I love these kinds of debates!

Maybe an admin will indulge me.

 

[Ash's Pika Pal]

Also, maybe a quoting standard should be employed to make references clear. You don't have to follow through, but it might be helpful for instance, like the discussion between you and Ralli.

What do you mean by "quoting standard"?

Oh man, I wish this thread was in The Soap Box sub-forum. I would nurture it like an attentive parent. I love these kinds of debates!

Maybe an admin will indulge me.

How would you nurture it? Besides, how would a club end up there?

The basis of this club is to talk and learn about Jesus's teachings. Also, to help any one with questions on His teachings, God, Bible, something in that catagory.

 

[Rayne]

What do you mean by "quoting standard"?

A uniform quoting of references, like a template to follow. However, I'm thinking now that would probably just make it more intimidating for others who just want to jump in since it's not really fun to obey a side set of rules for formating sake. :/

 

[Barb]

I don't think moving this entire thread to the Debate forum would work. This thread is essentially for Christians to discuss Jesus' life and ministry, and for those curious about Christianity to ask questions. The key word here is discuss, not debate.

If you want to debate, make a thread there with a specific subject. Example: Ralli's posts about Jesus' teachings could be the subject: "Does Jesus Christ condone violence?" or "Does the New Testament support sectarian violence/jihadism?" The narrower the focus, the easier it will be to stay on topic and not simply post that you hate all religion, all Christians, all Muslims, or whatever.

Because this club has the potential to devolve into a flamewar, here are some ground rules:
1. Absolutely no flaming. First poster who declares all Christians are idiots/brainwashed/stupid or whatever gets permabanned. I'm dead serious. I'm so sick of seeing this across forums on the Internet. If you can't make a substantial post with rational and logical arguments or points and without ad hominems, then you fail at the internet and should STFU.
2. If you have a legitimate question or concern about Christianity or Christians, ask nicely. Disrespecting others' beliefs gets you infraction points which, if accumulated, gets you banned. Oh, and please don't feed the trolls (which threads like these inevitably get).
3. Everyone is welcome, provided they follow the rules.

There are two clubs on SPP called 'alliances', one for Christians and the other for atheists. They're basically threads where like-minded people can post without having to defend themselves every other post. That is what this club should be modeled after.

 

[Ash's Pika Pal]

Ok, thank you Barb for posting that! You explained it the way that it needed to be explained. Hopefully, things will stay peaceful.

 

[Barb]

As stated above, discussions are welcome. Debates are not.