Late DP and BW = The Same?

[Blob]

I know DP is loved by a lot of people, but honestly, towards the end it was filled with missed opportunities.

First of all Ambipom was kicked off the show and replaced by Togekiss.

Second, Torterra wasn't allowed to win.

Third, it felt like only Pikachu, Infernape and Gible were allowed decent wins.

Fourth, Piplup took over Dawn's team and you hardly got to see any of her other Pokémon! Seriously, Buneary didn't even appear in the League or the last episode of DP. Need I mention Cyndaquil bullying?

Fifth, SO many Piplup runs away episodes!

Sixth, Tobias.

Seventh, The last battle against Paul felt cheap and we didn't even get to see a lot of his older Pokémon in it. If you want to show an epic final battle, don't have 3 Pokémon KO'd but the exact same thing! I'd rather have seen Ash develop a strategy against Paul's battling style and team from Snowpoint, since IMO, that was WAY better and more diverse than the league 3 parter.

Eighth, Brock was reduced to the family doctor.


Overall DP felt like a HUGE cop-out and it was followed by BW. I find a lot of people don't notice DP's flaws at the end, because they're blinded by Infernape love or forgive it's flaws due to Ash using reserves. People think that Noivern was treated badly, well Torterra was actually WEAKER than its base form! At least Noivern started as a loser.

Oh and don't even get me started on the opening showing Ash's older Pokémon... it implied that Kingler would be used (since it was shown), but wasn't.


Need I talk about BW? Little character development, there was no sense of togetherness, annoying catchphrases, few battles, ect...

 

[Hidden Mew]

DP certainly has its problems and there are some issues from that series that still bother me. The way they got rid of Ambipom and gave Dawn a Togekiss on a silver plate right before the Grand Festival still enrages me. While I don't find Piplup as annoying as I did when I first watched DP, it did definitely took up too much attention from Dawn's other Pokemon, mainly Buneary and Pachirisu. Torterra's treatment was also pretty disappointing, especially when it did get some good battles as a Turtwig.

I wouldn't say that either Ash vs. Paul in the Sinnoh League or Tobias were bad though. I can see why people would have problems with Paul planning two of his Pokemon to go down in order to test Ash's strategy, but it was fitting for his character to use a different team. I don't think that we needed to see Ursaring get defeated again, although having Honchkrow would have been nice so that Torterra could have maybe finally defeated it. The battle was still quite good, the closest to perfection for a League battle in my opinion and it was a terrific end to a rivalry. There was weight behind both the battle and their farewell because of how important it was for the whole series and how there had been years worth of buildup for their final confrontation.

I actually liked the Tobias match. I think Ash could have made a couple of better choices, but the outcome wouldn't have been any different. Sure, Tobias having at least two Legendary Pokemon was a bit much, but if Ash was going to lose right after defeating Paul, I'd rather it was against something like Latios than just some random regular Pokemon. Ash was the only one to defeat Darkrai, which basically made him the honorary runner up of the Sinnoh League, and he got to go down in a blaze of glory against Latios. All things considered, I always thought it was a cool way for them to end the Sinnoh League.

I don't think that Brock becoming a doctor was a bad decision. It made sense considering how he was frequently in charge of taking care of sick Pokemon and if they wanted to take him out of the series, giving him a new goal that would make it difficult for him to keep traveling with Ash made sense. Plus, I kind of liked that he did change in goal in the end since it showed that dreams can change, which is a good message for kids too.

While I can see why you'd think that people were ignoring these flaws, I don't think that was the case. I clearly remember most of these complaints, if not all of them, coming up pretty frequently during the series. The complaints about Piplup, Infernape and the Sinnoh League in particular were pretty common, especially the first two. DP is widely praised here, but I don't think to the point where people ignore its flaws because like anything, DP has its fair share of problems. Even with these flaws, I wouldn't say that late DP is the same as BW. There was still generally better writing during the late stages of DP than there was for all of BW in my opinion. The majority of battles are far better than what BW did too. DP isn't perfect by any means, but I do think that it is handled much better than BW was in so many areas.

 

[Blob]

DP for me started off so strong, but then descended into darkness and all the hope I had for it all but vanished.

 

[polmpolm]

I felt like DP was by far better than BW, not the same. Yes, it was annoying that Torterra never got any wins and Togekiss was given more attention over Dawn's other Pokemon, but also keep in mind that Togekiss was on Dawn's team a shorter amount of time and needed to properly be developed in order for us to even have feelings for it since everyone screams that Noivern has no training and should have never evolved. I feel like the writers wanted to give the attention to the newer Pokemon because they were NEWER, they had no story.
The end result of the league was just appalling though. Tobias should have had more development or at least appearances prior to the entrance so we'd at least know the guy.
Infernape did get a lot of the spotlight treatment because it was Ash's spotlight Pokemon of the region. Just like Greninja now, Infernape was constantly getting itself ready to take down Paul.
There were two Piplup runaway episodes towards the end, beginning with post Team Galactic finale is what I deem the ending point for the anime where things begin to wrap up.
Paul and Ash's battle is the highlight of the League though! Ash was proving a point to Paul that he'd defeat him with the team Paul defeated back at Lake Acuity. Paul battled in his own style as always, not caring if one of his Pokemon's fall if it helps him gain knowledge of how his opponent battles.

BW was just a mess really. It started off high and went pretty well since they wanted it to be fast paced like the Original series... but I'd say post Ash's eighth badge it was just bad. The league was bad, the "Junior Cup" tourney was awful compared to the Nimbasa tourney and even the also terrible Don George Tourney. Ash just had a bad character format, since he was just a complete idiot compared to AG and DP.

 

[Hidden Mew]

BW started off promising for me. I was even willing let the whole infamous Pikachu losing to Snivy thing slide because I wanted to see where they were going for with his rivalry with Trip. Similarly, I was able to like/tolerate Iris at first because I figured her immense flaws that they were displaying right off the bat meant that she was going to go through character development to become a better trainer and person. Once they made Trip an overpowered trainer just to put Ash in the underdog role again and they started to glorify Iris as an extra special trainer without actually doing anything to deserve that kind of praise, any hopes I had for the series were extremely lowered. It was pretty bad for me at least by around thirty episodes into the series.

I've been able to rewatch DP a few times already and I still enjoy it. I like Dawn more than I think I did when the series was running. I haven't rewatched BW and I'm not sure if I ever will because of how frustrating the series was for me. DP does have its flaws and it certainly could have been better in a few areas, but at least it's watchable, for me anyway, and I can't really say the same thing for BW.

 

[ii kanji]

Obviously I'm never going to agree that late DP is the same as BW, but I will concede that Hikari's contest arc, which was built up really well for the first 2/3 of DP, was a damp squib by the Grand Festival. The ping-pong thing, the Pocchama dominating thing, the Togekiss thing all contributed.

On the other hand, I feel that Satoshi's quest exceeded expectations. We all wish that Dodaitose had been a little more successful but it would have felt so false if every member of his team had shone. The way I see it, the setup leaves us with a tantalising possibility of return and redemption.

 

[Blob]

Infernape did get a lot of the spotlight treatment because it was Ash's spotlight Pokemon of the region. Just like Greninja now, Infernape was constantly getting itself ready to take down Paul.

Except that Greninja was only the primary focus from the second to last Gym on. Before that it was shared spotlight for all of Ash's Kalos Pokémon.
Infernape on the other hand was Ash's main star Pokémon since he got it as a Chimchar.

True, Noivern was the one with the least amount of development in Kalos, but IMO, that beats being developed, then just given the shaft for the next big thing. Almost all of Ash's Sinnoh Pokémon got stupid losses just to make Infernape look good.
What's worse is the 8th Gym was 4 on 4, but Ash only used 3 Pokémon, one of which was KO'd right away. I think Infernape KO'd 3 Pokémon in that Gym and two with Blaze.

It just makes it seem like Paul was better at training Infernape into a powerhouse, that none of Ash's other Pokémon could stand up to. True, Paul gave up on Chimchar, but somehow Ash's kindness is what made it evolve, making Paul's training all the more obvious.

Obviously I'm never going to agree that late DP is the same as BW, but I will concede that Hikari's contest arc, which was built up really well for the first 2/3 of DP, was a damp squib by the Grand Festival. The ping-pong thing, the Pocchama dominating thing, the Togekiss thing all contributed.

On the other hand, I feel that Satoshi's quest exceeded expectations. We all wish that Dodaitose had been a little more successful but it would have felt so false if every member of his team had shone. The way I see it, the setup leaves us with a tantalising possibility of return and redemption.

I'm not sure that he will use Torterra again though, considering all the power houses he has in Kalos, as well as better Grass and Ground Types, like Sceptile and Krookodile.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Except that Greninja was only the primary focus from the second to last Gym on. Before that it was shared spotlight for all of Ash's Kalos Pokémon.
Infernape on the other hand was Ash's main star Pokémon since he got it as a Chimchar.

Chimchar was given a lot more attention early on due to its connection to Ash and Paul's rivalry, but I don't think it was too difficult for his other Pokemon to still shine for awhile. I don't think it started to really outshine the other Pokemon until the sometime after it evolved into Infernape, if not awhile after it evolved into Monferno.

True, Noivern was the one with the least amount of development in Kalos, but IMO, that beats being developed, then just given the shaft for the next big thing. Almost all of Ash's Sinnoh Pokémon got stupid losses just to make Infernape look good.
What's worse is the 8th Gym was 4 on 4, but Ash only used 3 Pokémon, one of which was KO'd right away. I think Infernape KO'd 3 Pokémon in that Gym and two with Blaze.

I can understand feeling that way, but I disagree. As frustrating and as disappointing as it was for Pokemon like Torterra and Buizel to lose frequently by the tail end of DP, I'd take that over something like Noivern. At least I never questioned why Ash got Torterra and Buizel in the first place like I do with Noivern and they didn't magically evolve despite having little to no battle experience. Torterra was definitely treated poorly and should have gotten some good victories, but at least its evolution felt believable and earned after all of its battling experiences. They just handed Ash a Noivern on a silver plate because they wanted to give him as many fully evolved Pokemon for his Kalos team as possible, regardless of whether or not it was believable and earned. I don't think that the 8th Gym was four on four, but I do wish that Torterra could have gotten a victory from that Gym battle, as well as the battle against Paul.

It just makes it seem like Paul was better at training Infernape into a powerhouse, that none of Ash's other Pokémon could stand up to. True, Paul gave up on Chimchar, but somehow Ash's kindness is what made it evolve, making Paul's training all the more obvious.

I got the exact opposite impression. If Paul was better at training Infernape into a powerhouse, he would have been able to make progress with it controlling Blaze and eventually getting it to evolve, but he couldn't. Getting all of that training from Paul made it stronger, but it was only through Ash's training and kindness that Infernape was able to shine. I wouldn't say that Infernape doing so well was a reflection of Paul's training, but rather Ash's.

 

[Nicolas721]

I think that in mid-2009 the producers had a hard time choosing between making another Battle Frontier arc or not, and thus ended up making strange desicions. Aside of the ones you menction there's also the fact that the Sunnyshore gym was postponed for 4 months, the overuse of Training episodes and not quite clear reasons for the captures of Gible, Torterra and Brock's departure.

While both of late DP and BW's mistakes come from confusion, I think it's a different kind of confusion for each. Late DP is more "I don't know how to end this thing right" while BW is "I don't know what to do to tell the story I'm trying to tell".

 

[Blob]

I can understand feeling that way, but I disagree. As frustrating and as disappointing as it was for Pokemon like Torterra and Buizel to lose frequently by the tail end of DP, I'd take that over something like Noivern. At least I never questioned why Ash got Torterra and Buizel in the first place like I do with Noivern and they didn't magically evolve despite having little to no battle experience. Torterra was definitely treated poorly and should have gotten some good victories, but at least its evolution felt believable and earned after all of its battling experiences. They just handed Ash a Noivern on a silver plate because they wanted to give him as many fully evolved Pokemon for his Kalos team as possible, regardless of whether or not it was believable and earned. I don't think that the 8th Gym was four on four, but I do wish that Torterra could have gotten a victory from that Gym battle, as well as the battle against Paul.

OK, but Torterra feels weaker than it's pre evolution, while Noivern feels more on-par with Noibat. I don't like it when something/someone is nerfed because someone/something else is strong too and more popular.

 

[Master Cyrus]

Late DP involved Ash's starters evolving fully while BW had 2 of them stay unevolved for the entire run. So its not the same.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I think that in mid-2009 the producers had a hard time choosing between making another Battle Frontier arc or not, and thus ended up making strange desicions. Aside of the ones you menction there's also the fact that the Sunnyshore gym was postponed for 4 months, the overuse of Training episodes and not quite clear reasons for the captures of Gible, Torterra and Brock's departure.

While both of late DP and BW's mistakes come from confusion, I think it's a different kind of confusion for each. Late DP is more "I don't know how to end this thing right" while BW is "I don't know what to do to tell the story I'm trying to tell".

I didn't think that they overused the training episodes and I wouldn't say that there weren't clear reasons for Gible's captures or Brock's departure. Gible in my opinion was handled pretty well for late series capture, which is more than I can say for Noivern, and Brock's departure worked fine for me. They put off the Sunnyshore Gym battle for the Grand Festival, which I thought was fine, even though it still would have been good if Grotle had won something before Team Rocket interrupted the match. Given the pace of DP, I really doubt that they were having a hard time choosing whether or not to do another Battle Frontier arc. Even with Palmer's introduction, there was no time to really do anything besides the Sinnoh journey, which I think worked out in DP's favor. They were cramming a ton of stuff into a year's worth of episodes like they did in AG, which I think helps to make DP a stronger series by comparison.

OK, but Torterra feels weaker than it's pre evolution, while Noivern feels more on-par with Noibat. I don't like it when something/someone is nerfed because someone/something else is strong too and more popular.

I wouldn't say that Torterra is weaker than its pre-evolution, even with it always losing. Even nerf might be a bit much when it wasn't really seen as weak within the show in spite of losing all the time. I can understand not liking that it was losing due to Infernape being more popular and strong, but I just find Noivern much more frustrating when it never should have evolved and it almost always loses too.

 

[ii kanji]

OK, but Torterra feels weaker than it's pre evolution, while Noivern feels more on-par with Noibat. I don't like it when something/someone is nerfed because someone/something else is strong too and more popular.

The thing is, there is actually an in-universe reason as to why Dodaitose struggled i.e. it never got over losing its speedy body as Naetle. My only regret is that the arc of it coming to terms with that failed to culminate in any satisfying victory.

 

[Garren]

Biggest problem I think was how they handled advertising Heart Gold and Soul Silver, it was a bit too on the nose for me---the N.E. Pichu shit (which was pointless), Dawn getting Cyndaquil, the Lyra and Khoury arc (though it was fun to have them along), and all the fillers based on Johto Pokemon.

I was pleasantly surprised how XY was a bit more restrained in that regard---pushing most of the Hoenn stuff to the Mega Evolution specials, and not needlessly giving the main cast an old Hoenn Pokemon just 'cus. Shota sort of advertised the remakes but ended up being a fairly good character who could stand on his own and gave us a hype battle, and I don't remember a noticeable influx of Hoenn-based fillers except the one with Salamence and the one with Spoink.

Both the Grand Festival and Sinnoh League were pretty awesome, sure I have an issue with Togekiss and Gible both feeling like weak additions who did too much in those but the fights were cool---the Nando vs. Zoey fight is the hypest I've ever got from a Contest. It's also great how every character who played a role was built up for a decent amount of time, bar Tobias, and Diamond and Pearl was great at having little build-ups overall. Best Wishes went nowhere.

 

[Blob]

The thing is, there is actually an in-universe reason as to why Dodaitose struggled i.e. it never got over losing its speedy body as Naetle. My only regret is that the arc of it coming to terms with that failed to culminate in any satisfying victory.

Which is exactly why it feels weaker than Turtwig... Ash should have given it some defensive moves, like Reflect and have it learn Dig after the battle with the E4 Member.

 

[ii kanji]

Which is exactly why it feels weaker than Turtwig... Ash should have given it some defensive moves, like Reflect and have it learn Dig after the battle with the E4 Member.

Move learning in the anime has never been as simple as just giving pokemon moves. Maybe if they hadn't wasted half of Naetle's life on learning that energy ball move (whatever move it was), they could have focused more on its post-evo angst, but as it is I really think this is a relatively minor nitpick in an otherwise very well written series.

 

[Blob]

Move learning in the anime has never been as simple as just giving pokemon moves. Maybe if they hadn't wasted half of Naetle's life on learning that energy ball move (whatever move it was), they could have focused more on its post-evo angst, but as it is I really think this is a relatively minor nitpick in an otherwise very well written series.

Except that it FORGOT Energy Ball when it evolved into Torterra.

 

[Galactic_V]

Man, I just love this kind of topics talking about other series and comparing them.

Anyway in my opinion the writers haven't got used to a 3-year saga just yet. I could compare DP to XY for eg, both have great moments and stand out in my opinion, still XY has this flaw where some things weren't developed properly. I give as an example this ridiculously short league arc in which Satoshi was already a semi-finalist by the 2nd episode.

Now taking BW into account I believe making it as fast-paced as Kanto did more bad than good as it had good ideas (like giving Satoshi more than six Pokemon), however due to an only 2-year league saga most of the reserves evolved unbeliveably when the starters kept finished it unevolved (except for Chaobu).

So I really believe the Creative Team should be getting used to the shorter gap between generations, and we'll probably get a Sun&Moon series with a better pace (I hope)

 

[Mikuri]

No offense whatsoever but this thread totally feels like /vp/'s bait discussions. All the inaccurate information in the first few sentences made it really hard for me to keep reading. For starters, Dawn's Buneary did appear in the last episode of the Diamond & Pearl series. She was the whole reason Dawn decided to stay in the Sinnoh region instead of joining Ash and Brock on their little trip to Kanto. Buneary got another modeling gig from the people at the Poké Chic magazine and this time Dawn agreed to participate.

Second, saying that there were so many episodes in which Dawn's Piplup ran away is a lie. Iris' Axew was the one getting lost every now and then. Piplup ran away once, and he had a reason to do it, and it actually led to something (learning Hydro Pump). Since we're talking about Piplup, I must add that the people who do not tolerate him should at least check their facts before spreading made-up information across message boards. Many will say that Dawn neglected the rest of her team, but this is so not true.

Here's a list of Dawn's Pokémon Contests:
Jubilife Contest - Piplup performs, Buneary battles
Floaroma Contest - Pachirisu performs, Piplup battles
Hearthome Contest - Piplup and Pachirisu perform together, Dawn loses in the first round
Solaceon Contest - Ambipom performs, Dawn loses again, Piplup sits in the audience
Wallace Cup - Ambipom performs, Pachirisu is shown winning a battle, Buneary gets one battle while Piplup gets two
Celestic Contest - Buneary performs, Ambipom battles, Piplup sits in the audience
Chocovine Contest - Buneary performs, Pachirisu battles, Piplup sits in the audience
Sandalstraw Contest - Ambipom is used for both rounds, Piplup sits in the audience
Lilypad Contest - Piplup performs, Mamoswine battles
Daybreak Contest - Buneary and Piplup perform together, Cyndaquil and Mamoswine are used for the two-on-two Contest Battles

Piplup took part in six Pokémon Contests, Buneary in five (plus the Hearthome Collection which is basically the Performance Stage with clothing and accessories). Where's the huge gap? In what world is Piplup hogging all the spotlight and pushing his teammates towards a void of nothingness? I really don't see it. Why there are people who think Piplup appeared so much more than he actually did? It's because they hate him. Simple as that. When just seeing a character causes you pain and suffering, every little second becomes an eternity. Trust me, I went through this with Iris.

What really puzzles me is the fact people often forget that Piplup is Dawn's starter and therefore supposed to be used more than any of her other Pokémon. Not to mention he held tremendous popularity at the time DP was airing. Additionally, it's not like the writers were making him as the star of everything Dawn ever entered. Dawn competed in three consecutive Pokémon Contests without using Piplup. There's a fair number of episodes between Piplup helping Dawn get the Aqua Ribbon and Piplup being used in the first round of the Lilypad Contest.

Now let's take a look at the current events, let's all stop hating Piplup and see what's happening with Ash's Greninja. Aren't you all sick of that mutant ninja frog? I know I am. Greninja is being shoved down our throats with no intervals for us to breath, but everyone seems fine with it. After all Greninja's dub voice is not annoying, it is such a cool Pokémon and it's super tough and strong and it allows Ash to almost defeat a Champion and win a League. It's completely fine. Piplup can go die a horrible death, hooray for ninja frog. Talk about being unfair.

Moving on from Piplup...

I don't quite understand why people are still mad about Ambipom being sent to a ping pong training camp. The monkey had been around since the Advanced Generation series. Do you guys really wanted more? She stayed in the main cast for a loooong time, almost like a Rocket Pokémon. I wasn't sad to see her go. She had a great run. She competed in four Contests under Dawn's care. She even competed in a Gym battle under Dawn's care, she helped Ash to win two of his Sinnoh Badges and Jessie to win her first (unofficial) Contest. That's more than enough. I like Ambipom, but she had to go.

I also don't understand why anyone in their right mind would think that Paul of all characters would go to face Ash in the Sinnoh League with the exact same team he used in the Lake Valor. Like really? Don't you guys know who Paul is and how he approaches Pokémon battling? Also, why is his battle against Ash in the League being considered cheap? Just because he didn't use the Pokémon some of you wrongfully expected him to use? Paul had no reasons to use the same team, Ash did. Ash wanted to prove he could win a battle with his loser Pokémon. Paul has a bunch of strong Pokémon he deems worthy enough to be on his team. Might as well use them!

About Brock, his role wasn't reduced in any way during DP. What really happened is that Ash shared the role of series protagonist with Dawn. Dawn is the only character ever to have her name in the summary of the Japanese openings along with Ash's. All the series are about Ash and his meetings and adventures with Pokémon. DP is about Ash and Dawn and their meetings and adventures with Pokémon. Dawn is a true co-star. Due to the show having two big stars going after their big dreams, Brock seemed to be just… there. We might think his role was reduced, but honestly, he was doing the exact same thing he had been doing since the very beginning and more.

Brock was still commenting battles, acting as a referee, preparing food, flirting with pretty women, and taking care of sick or injured Pokémon. Not only that, Brock won his first ever Pokémon competition, the Pokémon Dress-Up Contest, which got him an Egg, his first Pokémon Egg despite him claiming to be a freaking Breeder since forever. He was also involved in the Team Galactic arc. He connected with Uxie and his Croagunk had a rivalry with Saturn's Toxicroak. Honestly Brock did more memorable things in Sinnoh than in any other region. Even the things he is well-known for, like being the go-to guy when a Pokémon is sick, was expanded. He taught Dawn how to take care of her Pokémon, and this helped Dawn to gain her Mamoswine's trust and she thanked him for it. Brock was appreciated for all his help like never before. Brock was not reduced, it's just that the girl in the group got promoted.

The other points, like Togekiss being handed to Dawn and Torterra failing to win a single battle, I can understand. I'm not saying that I blindly agree with them. I loved Togekiss and even though she debuted so late in the series, the writers managed to flash out her personality and show her participating in a training session, which is more than I can say about some of Ash's Pokémon in the Best Wishes series, such as Boldore.

About Tobias, well, people hate him for no good reason. Ash had to lose, the writers thought it would be funny to show him losing to a guy whose signature Pokémon is a Darkrai. He would have lost if it was a guy with a mediocre team full of Eevee's evolved forms. Or a guy with a Meowth wearing boots!!! He would have lost either way, but people think if it wasn't for Tobias' Mythical and Legendary Pokémon, Ash would have won. Go figure. Oh, and that battle actually showed how strong Ash was. They even said that the guy who faced Tobias in the finals could not defeat his Darkrai. Ash defeated two of his Pokémon. It was much, much better than losing to a guy who took five Pokémon to a Full Battle.

DP was too good. Sure it had its flaws, what television show doesn't? However, it still is the best saga of the anime. Comparing it to BW, which is by far the worst, should be a crime.

 

[SamurottMan]

OP is troll

Mikuri wrote down every argument about why OP's statement is false. I don't see anyone coming with arguments better than Mikuri's...

Close thread?