Leaf in RGBY.

[Somari]

There are apparently two official arts, made by Sugimori, with her in it.

Anyone have a bigger version of the last one?

It's a shame that the GB couldn't handle her data. I wonder what would have happened for the GS boss battle and anime if she had appeared..

It's odd..She's defiantly one of the Kanto trio however she's such a unknown character. Scrapped from BR along with Red, not even referenced a bit in HGSS..Her hat is in SSB Brawl and her outfit is in that driller game, though.

Is there any other artwork of her, pre-FRLG? If there were two artworks of her, then there is probably more of her pre-release. Was she actually ever implimented into the games?

She has like two regular artworks anyway.

 

[The Hoenn Kid]

There is Green in the Adventures Manga, who has the original costume and then changes into the FRLG one for that chapter.

 

[Somari]

There is Green in the Adventures Manga, who has the original costume and then changes into the FRLG one for that chapter.

She's just her counterpart. That's like saying Ash or any of the many manga Red counterparts are Red.

I meant game related stuff.

Edit: I just noticed something. Now that I've seen her face and hair in that second art, her Special counterpart's, Green's, hair is slightly different from her. Far more combed while Leaf's was very..Straight.

 

[Takoto]

not even referenced a bit in HGSS

Well, that's mainly because she wasn't mentioned in Gold, Silver or Crystal... and HeartGold and SoulSilver are the remakes of them... so...

If you take some time to look through the internet and perhaps if you can find old photos and shots of old magazines from when Pokémon was first announced in Japan, I'm sure you'd find maybe a scrap or two of information about her.
Although, it seems like the concept for her was scrapped very early into production.

 

[Somari]

Well, I don't recall Lyra/Ethan appearing, golden leaves, Pokemon following you, etc, etc. in GSC. It's called "retconning". They put the Sevii Islands in FRLG, which weren't in RGBY.

 

[Princess Viola]

Hibiki = Gold

 

[Somari]

Hibiki = Gold

Don't get into that please. There was like a giant war about how "Gold" was never his name a few months ago..

 

[Shinx3000]

I though leaf was Blue and was supposed to be the female in Blue, but the female didn't appear to GS

 

[Takoto]

Well, I don't recall Lyra/Ethan appearing, golden leaves, Pokemon following you, etc, etc. in GSC. It's called "retconning". They put the Sevii Islands in FRLG, which weren't in RGBY.

I was just saying that, you know, it's a remake and they're not going to add 462 new features or characters into a game. Yes, they did add a fair few things... but there wouldn't have been much purpose to having Leaf in there. You already had Red to challenge at the end.

They could have added her in yeah, I'm just saying that it makes sense that she wasn't added in.

 

[Orion-Sama]

Leaf is unfortunately always ignored by the developers. It's as if they have a personal hatred against her, much like against Farfetch'd.

I can accept the size issues in RGBY, but not in HGSS. They even had a perfect opportunity to feature her in the Battle Frontier, but instead were totally lazy and used the exact same Brains from Platinum. :/

It's a shame, as she's the best design in the female characters, and is very awesome.

 

[Champion Lance]

Takoto: Yes, but the whole bit about having one's opposite gendered counterpart stalk you in HG/SS was definitely not in GSC and was arguably a redundant and needless feature. It would have been extremely simple to have someone like Kurt, unavoidable in the story, ask the player if he/she was familiar with the gender of the trainer who defeated Team Rocket.

Then the game would set who was atop Mt. Silver: Red or Leaf. The reason they didn't do this, is because Leaf isn't allowed to share in Red's iconic status, for some reason.

 

[Somari]

I though leaf was Blue and was supposed to be the female in Blue, but the female didn't appear to GS

Uh..Huh?

Leaf was created for Red & Green, which would have made her "Blue", however due to space problems they didn't implement her into the games apparently. They just made quite a few artworks of her (at least two). Special however wanted a female so they used her design and made "Blue", one of Leaf's few counterparts.

When FRLG came along they redid the unused girl from RG and made her into "Leaf".

Off topic, but has anyone thought about making a hack or mockup with Leaf in it? Not using her FRLG sprite
I don't play hacks however it would be interesting to see it in a video or screenshot.

 

[Takoto]

Leaf isn't allowed to share in Red's iconic status, for some reason.

Well, Red is a very well-known figure in the series. Much, much more so than other human character (unless you count Ash). He is iconic, and was the first character you could ever play as in the series. People who have grown up and out of Pokémon would still probably recognize his sprites, yeah?

Although Leaf, whilst I'm not saying she's is a poorer character or anything, is not iconic. She wasn't the first character you could play as in the series, nor was she even the first female character you could play in the series. So... yeah, she isn't exactly "iconic" in that sense.

Even if Leaf was featured in HeartGold/SoulSilver, she wouldn't become iconic, would she? Featuring a character in one game doesn't make them automatically iconic.

The point is she never will be "iconic" compared to a character like Red. Just because she is his "other-gender counterpart" or whatever doesn't mean she will automatically share in his fame.

 

[Champion Lance]

Red's iconic for being the original hero, certainly--but that didn't stop them from redesigning him for FR/LG, nor did that stop them from implementing a female character anyway. That's not what I was going for--it's that in-universe, people in HG/SS talk about Red with an appropriate level of awe given his achievements. His footsteps are essentially everywhere.

Leaf isn't being allowed that, by virtue of not existing. That's where she's being denied the iconic status: it's been pretty much hammered out that she doesn't exist. Red is the definitive character of FR/LG and the female runthrough is simply non-canonical.

In every other game, there's an alternative: it's not set who was the hero and who was the helper. FR/LG had no help, but because HG/SS sealed Red as the hero, there isn't even any sort of ambiguity that they're the same person.

Leaf never happened. And that's a shameful thing for GF to do.

 

[Keegman]

Red's iconic for being the original hero, certainly--but that didn't stop them from redesigning him for FR/LG, nor did that stop them from implementing a female character anyway. That's not what I was going for--it's that in-universe, people in HG/SS talk about Red with an appropriate level of awe given his achievements. His footsteps are essentially everywhere.

Leaf isn't being allowed that, by virtue of not existing. That's where she's being denied the iconic status: it's been pretty much hammered out that she doesn't exist. Red is the definitive character of FR/LG and the female runthrough is simply non-canonical.

In every other game, there's an alternative: it's not set who was the hero and who was the helper. FR/LG had no help, but because HG/SS sealed Red as the hero, there isn't even any sort of ambiguity that they're the same person.

Leaf never happened. And that's a shameful thing for GF to do.

"Shameful" is a glorious and stupid overstatement. I'm sure that if any other games got direct sequels they'd have to solidify which character was, say, Norman's kid and which one was Birch's kid. That's just how it is. And I'd have been very, very upset if I reached Mt. Silver and there was some girl I never played as where Red is supposed to be.


Besides, if she never existed then they can't be neglectful towards her.

 

[TM2-Megatron]

And I'd have been very, very upset if I reached Mt. Silver and there was some girl I never played as where Red is supposed to be.

What about if it had been this...

Red respawns after each Elite 4 victory, correct? What if, every second time after first defeating Red, both Red and Leaf were at the top of Mt. Silver. And you could have a double battle with the two of them. That's what I would've pushed for, had I worked on these games at GF.

 

[Champion Lance]

"Shameful" is a glorious and stupid overstatement. I'm sure that if any other games got direct sequels they'd have to solidify which character was, say, Norman's kid and which one was Birch's kid. That's just how it is. And I'd have been very, very upset if I reached Mt. Silver and there was some girl I never played as where Red is supposed to be.

Wheeeeee zero summing is fun.

Not.

I already presented a plausible and simple solution: "It would have been extremely simple to have someone like Kurt, unavoidable in the story, ask the player if he/she was familiar with the gender of the trainer who defeated Team Rocket.

Then the game would set who was atop Mt. Silver: Red or Leaf. The reason they didn't do this, is because Leaf isn't allowed to share in Red's iconic status, for some reason."

The difference between any sequels of RSE is that there is that flexiblity exists where it does not for FR/LG. There is no second option. Thus, going back to the tried and true ambiguity of presenting the player with a choice is still better than erasing a character outright.

Brendan and May will still exist, no matter which one ends up being the hero. But Leaf has been removed, barring some great future act to restore her.

And I'll maintain that it is shameful, without any qualms.

 

[TM2-Megatron]

Then the game would set who was atop Mt. Silver: Red or Leaf. The reason they didn't do this, is because Leaf isn't allowed to share in Red's iconic status, for some reason."

Making that choice and then facing either one or the other every single time is so final, though.

Personally, I prefer my suggestion of having every second respawn after the initial defeat of Red being a double battle with You vs. Red & Leaf. Not only would it have satisfied everyone (those who like Leaf, and people who want to fight Red alone), but it would also have made use of the double battle mechanic that didn't exist in the original Gen II.

I liked Leaf, personally. She was the best designed female player character, IMO. I would've liked to see her get a role in Hg/Ss. (Of course I also would've liked to see the Sevii Islands in Hg/Ss, lol).

 

[Champion Lance]

But then who is Leaf? She has no story--it would have to be one or the other for story reasons. It's an XOR: one or the other, but not both.

Having it final, with the possibility of change the next time you played, is nothing new: your choice of starter is also final. Sure, you can trade one in, but then the other person doesn't get to keep it.

 

[Silktree]

Does anyone have a source for the claim that the female character was removed from Red and Green because of space issues? Obviously, the sprites wouldn't have been an issue, so what would?

I find it interesting that Ken Suigmori drew Leaf in an environment that, as far as Kanto is concerned, can only be compared to Mt. Silver. But the use of Combusken makes the canonicity (story-wise) of the artwork highly questionable. I would probably give up on Leaf and Kris being canon characters if it weren't for the fact that Professor Elm's third starter in HGSS is given to an unseen trainer ("There are no valuable Pokémon left... You wonder who Professor Elm gave the last Pokémon to?"). That trainer is obviously not the opposite-gender character, who only ever mentions the Generation II starters when they suggest that the player take them to their favorite spots in Johto. So who could that mysterious trainer be, and why would Game Freak choose to give them a starter, rather to the opposite-gender character?

I think that that trainer might be Kris, and Game Freak's script writers are at least enjoying the thought that she is off doing something in Johto or elsewhere. But before we apply similar reasoning to why Leaf may exist after all, we need to account for the fact that Red has three starters in HGSS. Now, it is clear that it was never Game Freak's intention to establish Yellow as the canon version of events, since Red's Pikachu didn't follow him in GSC, Green/Blue used none of his Yellow-exclusive Pokémon, and there were no references to any of the anime characters carried over to Yellow. In view of this, Red must have obtained his three starters and Pikachu in some other way.

In the remakes, Green/Blue substitutes his Gyarados for Tyranitar (presumably the one from FRLG) in the rematch battle. This could be a hint that Gyarados was never a stable member of his team, being a temporary replacement for Blastoise, which was lended (or given) to Red for his training in Mt. Silver. If so, this means that Red's starter is actually Charizard, and Venusaur would have to have been obtained from someone else. For symbolic reasons, that Venusaur is more likely than not the Bulbasaur that neither Red nor Green chose originally. But I don't think Professor Oak decided to give Red another starter at some point.

Judging by the fact that Professor Oak is willing to give a member of his new trio of starters to Ethan/Lyra, a foreigner, Red's Venusaur's original trainer need not have been from Pallet Town, and likewise for the current owner of Professor Elm's third starter. Those two trainers could have come from anywhere, and their whereabouts in HGSS are as much of a mystery as the the fate of Lorelei, Agatha and the Sevii Islands (whose canonicity no one puts in question).

Lastly, below is what Leaf's (Blue's) sprite might have looked like if she had been implemented into the original games. It is courtesy of DeltaSuicune, whom I asked to make this years ago.