Legendary Pokémon and PUSA

[paperfairy]

Are statements by PUSA considered canon?

I ask because Zhen and I were attempting to develop a definition for "legendary Pokémon", and I read soon after that PUSA claims that both Manaphy and Phione are legendary. When they are excluded, a proper definition can be created, but with them....

Discuss. In the end of this thread, we should have developed some sort of final definition of Legendary.

[13:43:29] Paperfairy17: Hmm... are statements by PUSA considered canon?
[13:43:46] ZhenLin5: I don't know.
[13:44:26] Paperfairy17: I just read something by PUSA claiming that both Manaphy and Phione are legendary... meaning that some legendaries can breed, so now I wonder - do we have a solid definition for legendary?
[13:44:43] ZhenLin5: I don't we ever really did.
[13:44:55] Paperfairy17: I always thought of it was a Pokémon that required significant physical or mental effort to obtain, but Spiritomb also meets this requirement....
[13:45:32] Paperfairy17: and Zapdos is arguable with that arguement.
[13:45:37] ZhenLin5: ha?
[13:45:45] Paperfairy17: The Power Plant had no maze.
[13:45:52] ZhenLin5: Oh
[13:46:03] ZhenLin5: But you only get once chance to capture it.
[13:46:11] Paperfairy17: Same with Sudowoodo.
[13:46:53] ZhenLin5: But you can breed that.
[13:47:19] Paperfairy17: So, a Pokémon that in its premering generation, is only allotted one chance for capture?
[13:47:40] Paperfairy17: Does not include Mew, Celebi (in non US games), Jirachi.
[13:47:51] ZhenLin5: It would be a fairly complicated definition.
[13:48:14] ZhenLin5: You'd have "and/or not available through normal gameplay"
[13:48:38] Paperfairy17: Phione escapes both definitions.
[13:48:50] Paperfairy17: That's why i really question PUSA's credibility.
[13:48:55] ZhenLin5: Phione is not available through normal gameplay.
[13:49:07] Paperfairy17: It's parent is not, however, Phione itself is.
[13:49:38] Paperfairy17: I am willing to bet that some intern answered that question who barely plays Pokémon...
[13:49:48] ZhenLin5: Hmmmm
[13:50:00] ZhenLin5: I would still say Phione is not available through normal gameplay
[13:50:55] ZhenLin5: Because its parent is not available through gameplay, and if we allow foreign elements to be introduced... then even Arceus becomes available through normal gameplay
[13:51:26] Paperfairy17: Hmm.
[13:51:54] Paperfairy17: Capture rates?
[13:52:36] ZhenLin5: No good, Shaymin and friends have high rates.
[13:52:36] Paperfairy17: Ugh, Metagross.
[13:53:40] Paperfairy17: I will ask on the forums.

 

[Trainer-c]

Phione is indeed a legendary. I don't even get why this is in question.

 

[The Outrage]

This is hard. We know what Legendaries are, yet we have no set definition for them, especially with Heatran breaking the gender barrier and Manaphy and Phione breaking the breeding one.

Oh and the wannabe legendaries like Spiritomb and Rotom (though Rotom isn't really that big a deal).

So here's what I think:

In game Legendaries:A Pokemon who cannot evolve or be mass-produced through breeding (even with Ditto) and has a distinct event to go through in order to obtain them.

Going into the Power Plant to get Zapdos is still technically an event, much like sprinkling water on Sudowoodo, no matter how boring. The only difference is one can be mass-produced legally, the other, not.

Event Legendaries: Pokemon directly or indirectly (ex. Azure Flute or breeding Phione) obtained from an official event or download whose species cannot be obtained in the games without the use of cheating devices or glitches.

I think that gets rid of special downloads of every-day Pokemon. Even in trades, the Pokemon was still created through an event. Specifically used the word "cheating" because bonus discs are still external devices.

Both these definitions, I am sure (especially the first one) are going to change with every new generation.

Phione is indeed a legendary. I don't even get why this is in question.

They want a clear definition. We know what legendaries are, but we can't define them.

 

[evkl]

We can't know what they are and not have a definition for them, those are incompatible ideas.

 

[The Outrage]

We can't know what they are and not have a definition for them, those are incompatible ideas.

Poor choice of words. We don't have an exact definition that fits only to them since the introsuction of a couple 4th generation pokemon that has broken our old definition.

On a side note, there are a lot of things that I know what they are but yet cannot really define them in words.

I think Zhen and Paperfairy were having trouble because they tried for one single definition, when it would probably be better to go for two definitions of "In-game" and "Event"

I don't know why they would object to such technical "gamer" terms when they were considering catch-rates as part of the definition aswell.

 

[evkl]

Wasn't it Feynman who said that if you can't explain it to a room packed with Freshmen, we don't understand it well enough? If you can't define what something is in words, you don't really have a handle on it, if you ask me...

 

[The Outrage]

Wasn't it Feynman who said that if you can't explain it to a room packed with Freshmen, we don't understand it well enough? If you can't define what something is in words, you don't really have a handle on it, if you ask me...

For the most part, we only knew what Legendary Pokemon were because we were told they were so by Nintendo or the Pokemon Company (or the games themselves). If we had an exact definition we wouldn't have mistaken Lucario as a Legendary in movie (pressumably because people were under the impression that Legendary Pokemon = Movie), and people wouldn't have had doubts about Rotom being legendary or a common pokemon in the early days of D/P due to his playing the legendary theme music when we approach it. Even Shaymin, at first glance some people couldn't believe was actually a legendary because its appearance seemed to defy the definition we gave to the "small and cuddley" event-legends (bipedal and part psychic)

I mean people even confuse the fan-term Uber in association with all Legendary Pokemon and seem to use them interchangeably despite the two terms having nothing to do with each other at all.

And come on, when new legendaries are introduced every new generation, should we just plug our ears and say "lalala this is the definition lalala" or should we take the better approach and change the definition to better suit what Game Freak gave us. We have to make our definition fit that of what we are defining, and Generation IV has challenged what our definition of a legendary Pokemon is by adding Pokemon like Heatran, Manaphy, and some wannabe legendaries like Rotom and Spiritomb.


Take Bacteria for example biology, the Kingdoms of which organisms are classified have changed many times over the years. The kingdom Monera was split into Archaebacteria and Eubacteria when they realised that those single-celled organisms had way too many differences to be put in the same kingdom. The five kingdoms turned into the six kingdoms. New discoveries means a change of definition.

 

[White Len]

How about legendaries are almost always in legends? I mean, that IS why they're called legendaries, right?

...

Oh wait, Unown breaks that law and Heatran too...

 

[evkl]

Are there any legendaries which appear more than once in a given game in a catching opportunity? Not like Suicune/Entei/Raikou who reappeared but were the same entity, but ones that have more than one incarnation in a single game.

That alone might be a good definition...it wouldn't be broken by, say, Aerodactyl or Kabuto, who aren't in "catching opportunities". That plus "giveaways" (Mew, Celebi, etc.)

Also, Snorlax is theoretically catchable twice in Red/Blue, although it'd be outlandishly challenging. That's the only other impediment I can think of to the rule.

 

[Silktree]

The following criteria apply only to the 35 Pokémon usually thought of as being legendary:

A Pokémon is said to be legendary if and only if it fulfills the following two requirements:

• It does not evolve from or into another Pokémon.

• Its catch rate is 3 and/or it is unobtainable via normal gameplay and/or its base stat total exceeds 600.

Requirements regarding breeding and gender are only extraneous and rule out Pokémon (Latias, Latios, Heatran, Cresselia and Manaphy) that are agreed to be legnedary. Not only that, such requirements are incompatible with Generation I; to use them would essentially remove the concept of legendaries from the first generation.

Notice that the only non-legendary Pokémon which have a catch rate of 3 are the Beldum line. However, the first requirement ensures that the definition still serves its purpose.

One might be deterred from the use of "and/or", but it is necessary and has basis in logic. The only legendary Pokémon whose catch rate is higher than 3 - Mew, Celebi and Shaymin - are event Pokémon that are hard enough to obtain without the added hassle of taking long to capture them (besides, most players who have those Pokémon obtained them from a direct download). Now, the total base stat requirement is necessary so as to allow Dialga and Palkia, whose catch rate is 30, to uphold their legendary status. Considering that Slaking is the only non-legendary Pokémon (due to its evolution line) whose base stat total exceeds 600, and that its Truant ability effectively renders that number much lower, it makes perfect sense to bring base stats into the equation.

It deserves to be noted that there is an impending "danger" of the addition of non-legendary event Pokémon to Platinum. If they turned out to be Rotom's alternate forms as many fans suspect (but I personally do not), then by virtue of not evolving, they would be classified as legendaries according to the aforementioned definition. At the same time, it is difficult to imagine legendary Pokémon that are related to normal Pokémon.

I can only say that we don't have enough information at this time; we will have to cross that bridge when we come to it. It is entirely possible at this time that they will be brand new Pokémon that can evolve. They could also be made normally available via another Generation IV installment. Regardless of the outcome, my proposed definition accomplishes the objective for the time being.

 

[FabuVinny]

Pokemon.com is the official Pokémon resource for the West. Unless there is information contradicting them, what they say goes.

This thread puts question into the other information we take from the site, such as a lot of spellings. (CoDs, formes, etc)

 

[BadabingBadabong]

How about legendaries are almost always in legends? I mean, that IS why they're called legendaries, right?

...

Oh wait, Unown breaks that law and Heatran too...

That doesn't mean they can't be legendary. If you've seen the anime (season 1-4 or something like that, can't place the exact episode) Arcanine gets mentioned as a legendary Pokémon, as does Ninetales

 

[Maverick Nate]

That doesn't mean they can't be legendary. If you've seen the anime (season 1-4 or something like that, can't place the exact episode) Arcanine gets mentioned as a legendary Pokémon, as does Ninetales

I think Arcanine was mentioned to be legendary in EP013, Mystery at the Lighthouse.

 

[sparkyrotom]

Heatran- does have a legend. The legend about it being created from a volcano at the world's beginning
Zapdos- it's domain is a little bit of a maze
Phione- cant be got through normal gameplay. Yes breeding it normal gameplay, but this time you need Manaphy to do who cant be got through normal gameplay
Item Event legends - the item is from outside the game

Rotom and Spiritomb - not legendaries due to breeding with Ditto (spiritomb can also be obtained more than once via catching aswell)

 

[Berrymaster]

The following criteria apply only to the 35 Pokémon usually thought of as being legendary:

A Pokémon is said to be legendary if and only if it fulfills the following two requirements:

• It does not evolve from or into another Pokémon.

• Its catch rate is 3 and/or it is unobtainable via normal gameplay and/or its base stat total exceeds 600.

I like yours... although it can be reworded slightly:

A Pokémon is said to be legendary if it cannot undergo evolution during its lifetime, as well as at least one of the following:

• Its catch rate is 3;

• It is unobtainable via normal gameplay;

• Its base stat total exceeds 600.

That doesn't mean they can't be legendary. If you've seen the anime (season 1-4 or something like that, can't place the exact episode) Arcanine gets mentioned as a legendary Pokémon, as does Ninetales

Arcanine's species is 'Legendary'; it's mentioned a few places like the Pokédex.

 

[paperfairy]

Very nice Berrymaster. I believe that covers it, thank you all for your help, (particularly, Unown Lord).