Liminal, Limited, and Transitory Spaces in Pokémon Games

[bugfacts]

I’m really enamored with the sorts of, like, quasi-spaces that crop up in the games from time to time, places that ostensibly exist but are not properly accessible, explorable, or interactive in the “standard” overworld sense. Spaces we aren’t really permitted to linger in overlong or engage with normally.

I’m not really talking about out of bounds or glitch areas, though they certainly evoke some of the same feelings, moreover stuff like HGSS’s PokéWalker Courses or Gen V’s Entralink or Pokémon Dream World. Spaces that “exist” and we get to interact with and explore in some capacity, but through a lens or in a way that prevents them from feeling properly “known” or “real” like the concrete, understood design of the primary overworld maps.

Spaces like this really delight my imagination, I get to wondering about what they might be like if we were permitted to see more of them, or do more with them and it makes me wonder if they feel as mysterious in-universe to our characters as they do to us on the outside.

Do you have any thoughts or feelings on this subject? Any favorite examples of this type of space in the games? Ones that you really really wished you got to see more of? Ones you have headcanons or theories about?

Did I forget or neglect to mention any?

Please discuss!

 

[terashards]

i've been sitting here wanting to reply to this thread because i also feel strongly about this sort of thing but it's really itching at me that i feel like there is a prime example of this that i love and i'm totally blanking on what it actually is for some reason.

while i try to remember what it is that i'm thinking of, i did think of a good example: the minigames in stadium 1 and stadium 2. now if we included any little area in any pokemon spinoff with questionable canonicity we'd be here all day, but the reason i bring up the stadium minigames is because they have a little known connectivity to the main series game cartridges: if you have a pokemon of the same species of the pokemon used in the minigame on you while connecting to the N64 via transfer pak, that pokemon will be the one used in the minigame. the hue shift of that pokemon is reflected, and so is shininess if you happen to have a shiny in stadium 2. using your own pokemon in the stadium 2 minigames even increases their friendship! ...by a measly one point, LOL. point is, these are actual tangible locations your pokemon can enter, albeit only a handful of species, and yet they don't have names at all. some examples courtesy of serebii:

the first one here with the bug mons even has an implication of a city in the background... like, where is this?? what city is that?? we'll never know...

by the end of writing this i unfortunately still haven't remembered what the hell is on the tip of my tongue in regards to this subject but if i end up remembering i will simply add another reply lol

 

[bugfacts]

if you have a pokemon of the same species of the pokemon used in the minigame on you while connecting to the N64 via transfer pak, that pokemon will be the one used in the minigame.

THIS IS THE CRAZIEST THING!!! WHAT!! I had no idea, I love it!!! It feels sort of similar to the PokeWalker courses, in that it’s a limited space our Pokémon can “canonically” travel to and explore but in a way where our perception is still limited! So cool!! Major bonus points for these types of spaces when they involve “traversing real world space” across different devices or games. Really cool trivia and great example, thank you!

the first one here with the bug mons even has an implication of a city in the background... like, where is this?? what city is that?? we'll never know...

It kind of reminds me of the N64 Smash Bros uhhh Saffron City stage? I guess by virtue of both being background N64 game Pokemon city graphics, but it evokes a similar feeling of mystery in me :]
I want to go there!

 

[terashards]

Really cool trivia and great example, thank you!

no problem! the stadium games as a "place" in general really fascinate me. same with the colosseums in pokemon battle revolution actually, but stadium even moreso because of stuff like the minigames, being able to see your room in GSC in full 3D, and in general the whole place being in a place called "white city" that is... questionable in terms of how real of a place it is

 

[bugfacts]

being in a place called "white city" that is... questionable in terms of how real of a place it is

I forgot how weird of a space it was set in…. God, I love this. Looking at the image, it really reminds me of a Neopets map page which, in turn, really reminds me (again) of the Pokémon Dream World stuff from Unova!! I get that it’s mostly just by virtue of being a limited interactive static art page with “clickable” feature of interest but… the connection is making my brain buzz! I like the idea that this whole “city” archipelago is something that is only accessible to us from within our room. Whatever is outside of our room can be transfigured into “white city” but our room is the anchor and the gateway into the space.

I like the idea of potentially drawing connections to the mysterious non-static version exclusive areas in Unova, both because of the Dream World associations and because it’s easy to parallel White City with Black City/White Forest.

I wonder what mysterious places are on the other side of this strange liminal sea White City rests upon! What’s lurking in its depths?? aahhhh I love this stuff

 

[terashards]

Whatever is outside of our room can be transfigured into “white city” but our room is the anchor and the gateway into the space.

the weird part is that if you go back a menu you technically have access to a tiny part of goldenrod city by virtue of the mystery gift girl, Carrie. you can talk to Carrie directly in goldenrod city's department store and that's how you actually unlock mystery gift in the first place. so it is implied that the background here is a window looking out into goldenrod city, which checks out because she's standing by windows in GSC

but this isn't a part of white city. and you "enter" white city by just going through almost like, a portal on the main menu. obviously this is all just "game stuff" but because of the overlap with GSC and references to actual places in the games it's just so strange if you think about it for more than 5 seconds lol i hope it's okay that i keep responding with more infodumping

i wish i actually remembered the dream world more! i used it as a kid but i don't remember a whole lot other than the berry fields obviously i can look up photos but that isn't quite the same thing. when i sent my original message about white city though, i did think to myself "funny how the name is a combo of the future white forest and black city" but i didn't type it into my message for some reason

OH MY GOD I REMEMBERED WHAT I WAS THINKING OF BEFORE
POKEMON GARDEN!!!!!!!!
i somehow found out about pokemon garden as a kid and i remember trying and failing to get myself online into it despite it being all in japanese and me being like... 8 years old or something. every location in this game makes me MENTAL. the gen 3 graphics and everything, like!!! GRGRGRGH i can't even form good words about it it just makes me crazy. if we ever find more of this lost game one day i'll be over the moon. it's still mostly lost media!!!! and it's lost media i knew about as a kid when it was active which gives me more psychological damage

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[bugfacts]

obviously this is all just "game stuff" but because of the overlap with GSC and references to actual places in the games it's just so strange if you think about it for more than 5 seconds lol i hope it's okay that i keep responding with more infodumping

Okay but this is awesome and only deepens the sense of mystery!! a semi-attached “real world” location that is connected primarily through an individual associated w transitory network features is so cool!! Also getting this secret glimpse into the Goldenrod cityscape in Sugimori-vision is awesome. It only furthers my feeling that White City is a space that exists between and beyond recognizable anchors!

Also thank you for responding with so much info!! This is the type of stuff I was hoping this thread would bring up!!

POKEMON GARDEN!!!!!!!!

I HAD NEVER HEARD OF THIS UNTIL JUST NOW? THIS IS FREAKING BANANAS

HOWWW COOOL!!!! It’s CRAZY seeing spaces crafted with the Gen III sprites and tilesets that I’ve never known existed!! And such interesting ones, too! Made for purposes we wouldn’t really see in the games! The Time Machine stuff especially, oh my god…. I’m losing it, that’s so cool. It feels like you could spin out an entire Yume Nikki style walking simulator from this. I can see why it makes you so crazy, I would have completely lost it if I’d seen or known about this as a kid, I’d have spent hours staring at the screenshots just like I did for event locations I could never access.

 

[terashards]

It feels like you could spin out an entire Yume Nikki style walking simulator from this

i don't know how i never considered the idea of a yume nikki styled pokemon game but now i really really want this to exist LOL. as a .flow fan for the past checks calendar 11 years i would absolutely eat that up holy crap. maybe one day when i'm not swamped with other things if no one else has made it yet... that would be so cool

I HAD NEVER HEARD OF THIS UNTIL JUST NOW? THIS IS FREAKING BANANAS

and right?? i know that it's a relatively small online game made for young children, and also wasn't international, so it's less interesting than the dream world for adult fans who either want the gameplay connectivity or their childhood nostalgia back, but it shocks me that more people don't know about it, particularly because there was development information for DP and comments from game freak staff within the game... as far as i know we still don't have everything that was shared by the devs in garden, and that makes me crazy. and like, personally, on the topic of this thread, the environments and the custom tilesets (in the gen 3 style) just absolutely fascinate me. it's not a real place in the pokemon universe and it has this meta aspect of being about the pokemon games as games, but it also looks so familiar to the places that do exist in the pokemon universe, it's like. (insert gba crash sound effect here) AAAA

 

[Mialentia]

This isn't really a "liminal" space, but it is a transitory one and I just wanna talk about this:

What the hell is up with Kalos Route 1?

Why does it exist? It's literally just a paved straight line between Vaniville and Aquacorde. Not even a long one; that would justify it being a route. Castelia City's streets are literally at least twice as long as this independent area. Let alone even that; an average city like Anistar City in the same game has a straight line that is at least as long as this!

It makes me wonder if they had anything else planned for this area... maybe a hidden section behind a Cut tree to come back to later, or some tall grass on the sides, or anything at all. But no, it's just... a straight line. They never did anything like this before or since. It baffles and fascinates me in equal measure.

 

[bugfacts]

What the hell is up with Kalos Route 1?

I have to be honest I didn’t remember it being that weird until you posted this and I looked it up and yeah?? What the hell?? It’s SUCH a strange little pointless area I’m kind of obsessed? absolutely the kind of place where it feels like there could or should be some kind of secret or additional purpose. It’s definitely in line with what I’m talking about here, it makes you imagine strange and mysterious possibilities! What might have been planned? What might have been lost? What would be cool? I love how mysterious it is, despite being so mundane!

It makes me wonder if they had anything else planned for this area... maybe a hidden section behind a Cut tree to come back to later, or some tall grass on the sides, or anything at all. But no, it's just... a straight line. They never did anything like this before or since. It baffles and fascinates me in equal measure.

My absolute best guess, assuming that there’s not cut content around it, is that it was just…. To demonstrate the new camera functionality? To really sell you on the jump to 3D, they felt like they needed to have the camera follow you for a little bit and let it really sink in? Or something? Either way, I love it.

 

[staticmoth]

Ahh what a great topic for spooky season!! I love the weird, unsettling horror of liminal spaces.

Initially, I was thinking of the S.S. Anne. A place were you spend about 10 minutes at most and then it sets sail and you can't return. Even more so the truck that you can get to with Surf.

Also places in the Gen 3 and 4 games that you can only access with tickets/downloadable event items? Faraway Island, Birth Island, Newmoon Island, Flower Paradise, Hall of Origin... If you don't have the specific items for these you can't even unlock them, do they even exist if you can't get those items? Or perhaps you can use the Mystery Zone to access them, which is even more liminal.

In a more meta sense, some of these error messages like the one about the "Battery Running Dry" in early copies of RS. And the screens leading to the fix of that program. I dunno, anything that breaks the immersion of the game for me can feel like that.

 

[bugfacts]

Initially, I was thinking of the S.S. Anne.

Oooh, great pull!! I know I always wondered where else it could take me, I always tried to find ways to board it again, talking and re-talking to NPCs. I think taking the ferry to Liberty Garden for the Victini event in B/W felt kind of like a payoff for that feeling to me, many years later, and an extension of that strange, limited space vibe! The garden itself is so small and strange and lacking! It makes you wonder about its keeper and history.

Also places in the Gen 3 and 4 games that you can only access with tickets/downloadable event items? Faraway Island, Birth Island, Newmoon Island, Flower Paradise, Hall of Origin...

Do you or did you ever have a favorite of these? I think Faraway Island was the one that always felt the most mysterious to me, personally.

Or perhaps you can use the Mystery Zone

I LOVE the Mystery Zone….. something about just walking through waves of tree textures until you reach something that shouldn’t be a place… just amazing.

In a more meta sense, some of these error messages like the one about the "Battery Running Dry" in early copies of RS.

another great mention! I think it would be neat and spooky to have a Pokémon OC or maybe hc that a canon character lives in a version of the world with a “dead battery” and cannot access berry gardens….

 

[terashards]

Do you or did you ever have a favorite of these? I think Faraway Island was the one that always felt the most mysterious to me, personally.

i know you were asking mem but i want to pipe in and say that navel rock is my personal favorite of all the gen 3 event locations simply because you have to descend a bazillion ladders to get to lugia and ascend a bazillion ladders to get to ho-oh. the design of the map is completely empty and the cave textures have pretty much nothing going on, but the ladders (and the dock, though that exists on all of these "remote" islands) imply that someone had been there before to tunnel into this mountain and place ladders...?? and of course "navel rock" is not a known location in johto and is completely disconnected from ho-oh and lugia's lore so it's even more confounding. the realistic answer is they just had to put ho-oh and lugia... somewhere... so they put ho-oh high up and lugia deep down on some random island and called it a day, but if you think about it for longer than two seconds it's really just nonsense. traveling over the empty tunnels feels vaguely creepy to me every time and at the very least is very liminal lol

 

[bugfacts]

i know you were asking mem but i want to pipe in and say that navel rock is my personal favorite of all the gen 3 event locations

always happy for input!!! Thanks for chiming in!! ^^

Navel Rock is a great choice!! It’s definitely one of the more mysterious ones! I actually always used to get it mixed up with Faraway Island because the name “Navel Rock” feels associated with birth/umbilical cords and that always makes me think it’s the Mew one because of Mew’s association as the progenitor Pokémon. I’m always like ohhh it’s some sort of primeval island where the earliest signs of Pokémon life occurred or something…. But no it’s the mysterious spooky ladder island, haha.

I like thinking that it’s a place of some sort of significance, some location that happens to sit at the overlap of some ley lines unknown or forgotten to humans that causes Lugia and Ho-Oh to visit it often. Somewhere that something important happened long, long ago. Some sort of romantic meeting of the sea, land, and sky. Idk! It’s a neat place and the idea that it’s partially excavated and touched by human hands but otherwise just largely abandoned is spooky!

 

[staticmoth]

Do you or did you ever have a favorite of these? I think Faraway Island was the one that always felt the most mysterious to me, personally.

Flower Paradise/Seabreak Path is my favorite because its such a long walk to Shaymin lol. And its pretty too!

I'll also add: I think part of the liminal appeal of these to me is that... the only event item I recieved during Gen 3/4 was Oak's Letter lol. (This was, in part, because it was Wi-Fi Mystery Gift. I didn't get the chance to obtain other event tickets growing up.) I feel both locked out and intrigued about the other ones. (Although the Hall of Origin wasn't legally accessible until BDSP lol.)

 

[terashards]

if we're including the gen 4 events i don't think anything beats the weirdness of this

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i did this one legitimately as a kid and it scared me so bad at the time that i turned my DS around and waited for the cutscene to finish. i couldn't watch it, it creeped me out so bad lol (i was an elementary schooler)
sinjoh ruins is kind of crazy in general

 

[Mialentia]

if we're including the gen 4 events i don't think anything beats the weirdness of this

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i did this one legitimately as a kid and it scared me so bad at the time that i turned my DS around and waited for the cutscene to finish. i couldn't watch it, it creeped me out so bad lol (i was an elementary schooler)
sinjoh ruins is kind of crazy in general

Oh god yeah sinjoh is so strange. I never had HGSS or did any of Gen 4's events as a kid so seeing this years after the fact kind of shocked me

 

[staticmoth]

Oh god yeah sinjoh is so strange. I never had HGSS or did any of Gen 4's events as a kid so seeing this years after the fact kind of shocked me

Oh real.

Its so weirdly meta and trippy for a Pokemon game. Especially the use of real life imagery?? I remember watching a LQ Youtube rip of it sometime in 2009-10 and blown away at how uncanny it was.

 

[bugfacts]

Flower Paradise/Seabreak Path is my favorite because its such a long walk to Shaymin lol. And its pretty too!

This is such a great choice!! It’s one of my favorites as well, it’s such an unconventional area and it feels so mystical and unnatural…. Walking along this long, long, perfectly floral path just above the waves. It’s one of the most memorable and one of the ones that really makes me grieve for the loss of these sorts of special event areas.

I think part of the liminal appeal of these to me is that... the only event item I recieved during Gen 3/4 was Oak's Letter lol.

SAME! Most of them I just stared at screenshots longingly lol, imagining what the adventure to get there must be like and what other secrets the screenshots might not be showing me. I think that helped build them up in my head as more mysterious than they maybe are, but I love it.

I never had HGSS or did any of Gen 4's events as a kid so seeing this years after the fact kind of shocked me

I also never did any of these events, so thirding that when I saw this for the first time it completely shocked me. I almost didn’t believe it was real!

 

[YoungsterJay]

Hmm it isn't quite the same as what you're talking about, especially since the pokemon classic discord community does semi-regular meetups to fill it up, but the union rooms from gens 4 and 5 are similar to me. Places that don't have the same functionality or energy as they used to. Old and unused spaces. Reminds me of dead MMOs and stuff.