• A reminder that Forum Moderator applications are currently still open! If you're interested in joining an active team of moderators for one of the biggest Pokémon forums on the internet, click here for info.
  • Due to the recent changes with Twitter's API, it is no longer possible for Bulbagarden forum users to login via their Twitter account. If you signed up to Bulbagarden via Twitter and do not have another way to login, please contact us here with your Twitter username so that we can get you sorted.

"Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin"

Status
Not open for further replies.
R

Raichu Mistress

Raichu Training Mermaid
Joined
Sep 20, 2004
Messages
38
Reaction score
1
Usually in debates on forums, some anti-Christians have a hard time understanding what this means. I just wanted to post my view and see if I can make it clearer...

Do I believe it is wrong for gay people to be intimate? Yes.
Do I hate gay people? No.

Ok, if I posted this in one of those debates, someone would call it a contradiction, like it's not possible. Here's how they'd be mistaken:

Do I hate alchohol? Yes (actually I'm scared to be around it)
Do I hate people who drink? No
Would I ever go into a bar with alchohol where my friends would be drinking? Heck no

Now which of those sounds more cruel?

Do I believe it's wrong to gamble? Yes
Do I hate people who gamble? No
Would I ever seriously adictively gamble? No

Do I believe pre-marital intimacy/adultery is wrong?
Do I hate people who do it? No
Would I do it? Never

I didn't add drugs because I am supposed to stay away from people who do them. My point is these are all different lifestyles and you can not like ALL of them without hating people who do them. How is that so hard to understand? It's got nothing to do with bigotry unless you torment someone for being gay. I also don't understand the term homophobic. phobic means you are terribly afraid of something, and people think we're scared of them? I'm more scared of alcohol than anything, am I a bigot to drunks?

Well I just wanted to share my thoughts on this topic. :)
 
Raichu Mistress said:
Usually in debates on forums, some anti-Christians have a hard time understanding what this means. I just wanted to post my view and see if I can make it clearer...

Do I believe it is wrong for gay people to be intimate? Yes.
Do I hate gay people? No.

Ok, if I posted this in one of those debates, someone would call it a contradiction, like it's not possible. Here's how they'd be mistaken:

Do I hate alchohol? Yes (actually I'm scared to be around it)
Do I hate people who drink? No
Would I ever go into a bar with alchohol where my friends would be drinking? Heck no

Now which of those sounds more cruel?

Do I believe it's wrong to gamble? Yes
Do I hate people who gamble? No
Would I ever seriously adictively gamble? No

Do I believe pre-marital intimacy/adultery is wrong?
Do I hate people who do it? No
Would I do it? Never

I didn't add drugs because I am supposed to stay away from people who do them. My point is these are all different lifestyles and you can not like ALL of them without hating people who do them. How is that so hard to understand? It's got nothing to do with bigotry unless you torment someone for being gay. I also don't understand the term homophobic. phobic means you are terribly afraid of something, and people think we're scared of them? I'm more scared of alcohol than anything, am I a bigot to drunks?

Well I just wanted to share my thoughts on this topic. :)
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, much of Bush's cult-worshippers don't understand the meaning of that phrase, either.

And when I say "homophobic", I mean people who think some gay guy is going to try to rape them/ corrupt their children/ whatever and therefore thinks they shouldn't have normal jobs.
 
Last edited:
I agree, I really don't see how people could think that just because you disagree with somthing, such as drinking or premarital sex, you have to hate whoever does it.

Ugh, and "homophobia" is one of my least favorite words. Just because someone disagrees with homosexuality doesn't mean they are irrationally afraid of it. Come to think of it, the prefix homo- means "the same", so I guess homophobia really means an irrational fear of things being the same.
 
Jeff said:
Ugh, and "homophobia" is one of my least favorite words. Just because someone disagrees with homosexuality doesn't mean they are irrationally afraid of it. Come to think of it, the prefix homo- means "the same", so I guess homophobia really means an irrational fear of things being the same.
Click to expand...

In a way, that's somewhat appropriate then, given that those people who seem this way are primarily afraid that they themselves, or perhaps their children, would become the same as them somehow just through contact with them (a rather foolish notion), and/or afraid that homosexuals will start to be treated the same as they are, such that they would be forced to acknowledge their lifestyle (for people who say they love the sinner, they certainly do like to do everything in their power to make life difficult for them).


Raichu Mistress, I have a question for you. Would you oppose the legalization of homosexual marriage, and the decriminalization of homosexual sex (where necessary) so that homosexual sex is treated no differently from normal sex? Just yes or no answers please.
 
Homophobic's really just been used in lack of a better term. It's a blanket term meaning a number of things because we live in a world that can't come up with any new words unless they're "from the street". Or use older out-of-use words for that matter.

And I've come to the realization that half the Christians out there are like what you posted Raichu Mistress. But there's the other half that thinks that any time someone does something wrong...it's a reason to hate/exclude/punish in some way/otherwise treat as a lepper. Too many rush to the "eye for an eye" part of the Bible, and not the part that says "turn the other cheek." We live in a world in which our president says "if you're not against the terrorist, you're for them." That's really a great example of the principles of this country, and how horribly screwed up they are. By so many people's definition, if I'm for peace, I'm also FOR terrorism. I recently read an article by Bill O'Reilly (aka Satan) who called Amnesty International terrorists because they're against the war in Iraq and were against the war in Afghanistan (that was, sadly, almost word for word what he said...I'm NOT just interpreting). FAR too many people in this world see the acts of others as black and white, while preaching to others about the shades of grey in their own actions. And THAT is what's wrong with this country, if not the world as a whole.
 
Archaic said:
In a way, that's somewhat appropriate then, given that those people who seem this way are primarily afraid that they themselves, or perhaps their children, would become the same as them somehow just through contact with them (a rather foolish notion), and/or afraid that homosexuals will start to be treated the same as they are, such that they would be forced to acknowledge their lifestyle (for people who say they love the sinner, they certainly do like to do everything in their power to make life difficult for them).


Raichu Mistress, I have a question for you. Would you oppose the legalization of homosexual marriage, and the decriminalization of homosexual sex (where necessary) so that homosexual sex is treated no differently from normal sex? Just yes or no answers please.
Click to expand...

No I wouldn't oppose marriage, and I don't really understand the second part of the question, so let me paste a peice from another forum...

I don't exacly know why, all I know is it's in the Old and New Testiment, and it says God made men and women to be together. But we are not to judge anyone who sins because everyone sins. Actually in my mind I fit it in the same catagory as not being married. Anything besides a married man and woman seems wrong in the Bible. I will be nice to everyone like I'm supposed to and let God be the judge. My mom and grandmother once said that gay marriage may be wrong in the Bible, but it's not really our buisiness, it's God's so we shouldn't worry.
 
In case I try to say it myself and screw up...
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=phobia

1. A persistent, abnormal, and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one to avoid it, despite the awareness and reassurance that it is not dangerous.
2. A strong fear, dislike, or aversion.

To be *phobic can also mean you just hate it, it's not always a fear.

Anyway, everyone knows I don't care about religion, but I see where you're coming from and it's much the same for me, just sort of in reverse.

Do I think it's wrong to dedicate your whole life to following a set of strict rules made up by someone whose existance can't be proven? Yes.
Do I hate people who do it? No.
Would I ever do it? No.

 
Last edited:
Archaic said:
Basically, I meant bringing homosexuality into line with heretosexuality from a legal standpoint (Identical ages of consent, etc).
Click to expand...

Ohhh ok, yeah, I agree with that then, but I still think outside marriage is wrong, but it's God's business to actually handle how wrong it is, so if they actually were married it still technically might be wrong but only He would know.
 
It is a self-limiting phenomenon, if it is genetic. If there is a genetic abberation that causes the subject to be unable to reproduce, or unwilling to reproduce, then those genes die with the subject.
Click to expand...

Not always. If there's a recessive genetic abberation that a single organism carries that causes some of it's offspring to be unable to reproduce while other offspring just carries the recessive gene - the abberation could continue to be passed on for several generations as long as the carries continue to have multiple offspring or the gene continues to be recessive and spread.

Genetic abberations are much harder to get rid of than people assume. Moreso in people than in animals, but still . . .
 
I know a lot of people who do some of the worse sind like drinking and gambling but that don't mean I'm gonna hate them. The people who make the pokemon games teach kids to gamble by having a slot machine and a roulette table in their games but that don't mean I'll hate them, I'll just get pissed off at the fact that they do that.
 
You've brought up a very interesting point in a sociological standpoint.

You state that

You don't like homosexuality
But you don't hate homosexuals.

So, the thing to ask would be, would you associate with homosexuals?

If you would associate with homosexuals, what would you do in situations where their homosexuality is prevalent, the same way your heterosexuality could be prevalent.

You've stated that you wouldn't go into a bar where your friends were drinking. So, is it safe to apply that to the homosexual arguement as well?

Or are you just indifferent to homosexuals. WHich is much worse than hatred towards them. A standard argument that states that any sort of passion (positively enforced or negatively) is much more preferred to an indifferent state of mind.
 
Raichu Mistress, what makes homosexual marriage wrong from a standpoint of God?

Isn't God supposed to love all of His Children equally, and forgive people for their transgressions, no matter how major?

If a man can atone after murdering someone on his deathbed and go to heaven, then a man should be able to make the same "atonement" for his sexuality--if one even needs made.
 
Just Tyger said:
Or are you just indifferent to homosexuals. WHich is much worse than hatred towards them. A standard argument that states that any sort of passion (positively enforced or negatively) is much more preferred to an indifferent state of mind.
Click to expand...
I disagree. If everyone who now hates homosexuals were indifferent towards homosexuals, then there wouldn't be a problem with hate crimes, descrimination, etc.
evkl said:
Raichu Mistress, what makes homosexual marriage wrong from a standpoint of God?

Isn't God supposed to love all of His Children equally, and forgive people for their transgressions, no matter how major?

If a man can atone after murdering someone on his deathbed and go to heaven, then a man should be able to make the same "atonement" for his sexuality--if one even needs made.
Click to expand...
You know, I really hate this sentiment. I don't think being a homosexual is a sin (and even if it is, it's gotta be one of the least severe ones out there), but knowing that you'll be forgiven is no excuse to do something wrong in the first place. I think God can tell if you're sincere about asking for forgiveness and whether or not you really do feel remorse for what you've done. I know a kid who was raised by really devout Christians and he (and his family) used this excuse to beat up small children, vandalise, not pay taxes, etc. I don't think God wants people to be absolutely dependant on him.
 
evkl said:
If a man can atone after murdering someone on his deathbed and go to heaven, then a man should be able to make the same "atonement" for his sexuality--if one even needs made.
Click to expand...

I think that's the issue. Being gay isn't like committing a murder. Unless you're insane, you KNOW murder is wrong. There is NO religion or set of moral beliefs that makes murder OK (although there are certain exceptions that can be drawn relating to the CAUSE of the murder). But being gay isn't seen as doing something wrong by...I dunno...throw in a number here. And how can you be expected to atone for WHO you are? That's the thing about Christianity that's always confused me. I can kill a million people and in my last seconds I can atone and go to Heaven, but if I steal a loaf of bread to feed my family yet don't atone, am I going to Hell because I broke one of the ten commandments? There's a myriad of examples that can be thrown out, yet no matter WHO you are, you can't give any answer with absolute certainty. ANYTHING said about what it takes to get into Heaven is, at best, hearsay. I tried to come up with a good comparison...but failed horribly...so I won't waste your time with a half-assed one.
 
Hmmm...seems kinda condescending to me. I don't know if it's the *exact* same thing, but I remember when people would tell me they were "praying for me" because I listened to heavy metal or played D&D. And I wanted to tell them to get bent, because I knew what I was doing wasn't evil and didn't need their approval to enjoy myself without harming myself or anyone else.

Obviously, people with different sexual orientations don't think they are sinning, and as such don't need anyone doing the "I love you even though you are going to hell" thing. It's very saccharine and tends to evoke deep resentment, at least in my experience.

I do get where you are coming from, but when you position yourself on a moral highhorse of any kind, you walk a narrow line between limited acceptance and bigotry. Not accusing you of this, but I've seen it happen over and over again at various youth and church camps.

Just to clarify things, I don't gamble, do drugs, smoke, drink, or engage in promiscuous sex. I don't judge anyone who does unless their actions endanger others (i.e. driving drunk). And I fear I may have ventured off the topic.
 
Why waste all that effort to hate the "sin," if you don't even have a better reason than "my religion tells me so?" Morality comes from logic (and self-interest), and the goal is social optimization and the happiness of society. If people get up in arms about somebody else's behavior that absolutely has no effect on them and has no potential to, then it's bigotry.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom