Main series' chronology- Gen's I & III

[VeggiePopper]

It's been assumed for a long time that Pokémon Ruby/Sapphire take place more or less during the same time period of Red/Blue, but as far as I'm concerned, there is no evidence that proves that. No body that I recall from my Ruby playthrough mentioned events or characters from Generation I games. I think Lanette talks about Bill, but never states anything that can hint the time period (I mean, Bill is somewhat present in every generation). The same goes for FireRed/LeafGreen: there are no references to the Hoenn story. Celios talks about finding the Ruby and Sapphire stones in order to establish contact with the Hoenn region, but that doesn't mean it is the same time, unless Hoenn explodes right after May/Brendan beat the League, which I see very unproabable, so Gen III can be set after or even before Gen I as there is still Hoenn and the link set by the trade machine in the Sevii Islands is merely geographical and not chronological.

In GS, a lot of people talk about the Rockets' failure three years ago, and Copycat's parents say she got her Cleffairy Pokédoll three years before meeting Gold, so it is completely clear that GS is set three years after R/B. And D/P begins with the sighting of the Red Gyarados (and its subsequent dissapearance, which may be a hint of Gold capturing it), so it is also clear that D/P takes place at the same time that GS or very little after. But what about R/S being simoulteneosly to R/B or FR/LG? There is no evidence, so why do Bulbapedia and everyone else say that? If there is a proof I'm missing, please let me know about it. I will appreciate that. Thanks =)

 

[Blackjack Gabbiani]

It's because you can trade directly between FR/LG and RSE without there being a "time machine" or anything.

 

[Shinx3000]

There is a guy in Lilycove who says he is from Kanto and that there are rare pokemon that can only be seen here, maybe a hint a Gen I remake before FR/LG was released?. The only hit in FR/LG about Hoenn is probably the Ruby/Sapphire machine linking with Hoenn and that there are pokemon far away there.

Not sure about D/P being same time as GSC, but could be, except there is no mention of the red garydos in Platinum. But Jasmine being present in D/P could give a hint of the time between GSC and D/P

 

[The Outrage]

It's because you can trade directly between FR/LG and RSE without there being a "time machine" or anything.

I always found that a lame excuse since they probably just didn't want to deal with the hassle, and the fact that those games can connect with both Colosseum games and they are five years apart.

 

[MasterTrainer]

I really prefer the PokeSpecial timeline, Kanto-> Johto -> Hoenn -> Sinnoh

 

[Evil Raichu]

I don't think that Johto and DP take place at the same time.

Just because Jasmine is visiting means nothing. She appears as your opponent in some pokemon contests...doesn't she need to be tending to the gym? I don't remember whether or not she says she's a gym leader when you talk to her in DP...perhaps she's been replaced.

Also, remember that the player did not HAVE to capture the Red Gyarados in GSC. You could simply defeat it or run away and it would still disappear. Maybe Gold did not capture the Gyarados and it's still out there somewhere, making appearances every now and then a la the Loch Ness Monster.

 

[Orion-Sama]

I'll quote one of my posts at SPPf:

The timeline, huh? I have thought deeply about this, and taking in count all hints in the games, I've come with the following timeline... the basic rule is that Pokémon Leagues take place in a one-year lapse.

Year 1: RBY/FRLG (Kanto Quest). Starting from the protagonist's set-off from Pallet Town up to him/her defeating the Champion at Indigo Plateau.

Year 2: FRLG (Sevii Islands Quest), RSE and Colosseum. As the League is over, the FRLG protagonist sets off to Sevii Island to discover new Pokémon, while Brendan and May start their journeys at Hoenn. Being able to trade after a main quest involving trade is finished makes this muchly obvious in many ways. Colosseum takes place in this time, regardless of lack of references, or merely minor references, mainly due to the "tradeability" with all aforementioned versions.

Year 3: Ranger. Yes, you read right. Ranger ties in quite surprisingly with the events in RSE. In the special missions after defeating Gordor, you confront Kyogre and Groudon, who were "wounded from a battle and came to rest to Fiore". You even get to battle against Rayquaza in Fiore. Here's my theory: with the existence of Aqua Cave and Terra Cave, it's obvious that Rayquaza didn't send Kyogre and Groudon to "slumber" after its intervention during the Emerald events. And since the Pokémon awaiting patiently in their designed spot is, more often than not, just an in-game element to let you catch them, I've come down to the following. Rayquaza qualmed the feud between Kyogre and Groudon, but then, they needed to heal their wounds after the terrible battle. Rayquaza led both of them to Fiore, where they set into a temporary slumber to recover their energies. Rayquaza remained flying atop the Fiore skies, awaiting for them to wake up. Once they did, however, chaos was brought into the place they had found solace at. However, as the protagonist managed to capture both of them, they were eased up, and they set back to Hoenn so to slumber once again. Rayquaza was going to leave alongside them, but it was pursued by the Go-Rock remnants, and that made it lose all its sense. It isn't until it's captured and becalmed atop Fiore Temple when it can go back to Hoenn.

Now... why Ranger? Simple. They DO mention the other Regions in a more direct fashion than Colosseum/XD (Which I also consider part of the same continuity, but completely isolated from all other Regions, which is why their mentions of it are completely indirect), and it also connects directly with Diamond/Pearl for the Manaphy Egg. This is considering that the Manaphy extra mission takes place one year after the events in Ranger, which isn't too far off, considering the characters involved (Gordor escapes at the end of the main storyline, and comes back completely reformed for the Manaphy mission, which suggest he had been meditating his actions for a long time).

Year 4: GSC (Johto Quest). Simple maths. If RBY is year 1, and GSC takes place three years after the events in RBY, we gotta forward three years later. Year 1 + 3 years later = 4th year.

Year 5: DPP and GSC (Kanto Quest). The Red Gyarados newsflash obviously sets DPP at the late end of the GSC storyline, and taking in count that the report explicitly says that "they couldn't find the Red Gyarados", it means that it was done time after the GSC event had unfolded (Protagonist catching it/becalming it). Taking in count the "Yearly Pokémon League" rule, the Kanto Quest in GSC takes place in this year as well, providing Jasmine a chance to travel to Sinnoh, either right away, or after the batch of Johto challengers this year has been dealt with (Considering that you get to meet Jasmine up to the very last Gym, which is roughly in the very last months of the year, which gives her time to arrive and setlle to train and take place in local Contests).

Year 6/7: XD. Again, maths. If Colosseum takes place in Year 2, adding 5 years gives us year 6 or 7 (The Colosseum Quest is unlikely to have extended itself throughout an entire year, so it'd depend in which time of the year it took place. If at the beginning, year two is considered in the count, leaving XD at the 6th year).

Now, here we have some discrepancy regarding trading compatibility, given how it can trade with the same games as Colosseum. However, here's the following fact: Colosseum can trade with Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald WITHOUT defeating the Elite Four/getting the National Pokédex first, which means it can trade with them in Year 2 (Their main quest), as well as with FRLG after completing the Sevii Islands Quest (Year 2 still). XD can only trade with such games after the Elite Four has been defeated/National Pokédex has been obtained, which would imply Year 3 (The League is over). However, XD can still trade with FRLG after the Sevii Quest (Year 2). But considering the lack of tie-in with the main storyline the Orre games have, the trading element, especially in XD, is much like the Time Capsule of GSC: an in-game element to get Pokémon. After all, the impossibility of trading with other Regions in Phenac's Pokémon Center can't be explained EXCEPT for it being an in-game restriction so you can trade only once you're done with the main quest in XD, considering that the trading between Regions was a finished issue with Colosseum's end. Unless Cipher messed with the trading system of Phenac during the city's occupation (It's never mentioned or referred to. You only get the generic message of "We're still making adjustments"), there's no plot-related explanation to the impossibility of trading between XD and the other games right away, which puts it under the same category of "Time Capsule". As such, the time discrepancies are unimportant and to be disregarded.

Plus, after all quests are done with, Pokémon games are potentially timeless, since you're still playing and training. Time is flowing all along. As such, it is not farfetched to trade with XD and other games, since we could easily assume that such games, after the quests are over, can potentially take place in the same timeframe as XD.

That's my timeline theory as far as I stand...

I bolded and italicized the important bits. That's the only reason trading between XD and any GBA Pokémon game could interfere with the idea that RBY/FRLG and RSE take place, if not at the same time, just one year apart from one another. You just have to use your imagination about why is it possible. And this is nowhere near as unlikely as any possible Time Capsule theory.

The reason FRLG and RSE are believed to take place at a close time from each other is for what Blackjack said. Now, think about it. The Time Capsule popped out all of a sudden. Likewise, the XD trading happened after beating the game. Unlike these two, the Sevii Islands quest was all about getting the Ruby and Sapphire to power up Celio's Machine and allow the capability of trading with Trainers in the Hoenn Region. The point of the extra quest of the game was that. You can't throw away its meaning as easily as with the Time Capsule or the trading compatibility with XD. It's a full-fledged quest with that objective, which means it has importance to the overall storyline. Now, when you give both gems to Celio, he says that he's managed to "link with Lanette". In Pokémon, your only hints for timeline are in regards of the same characters being mentioned in two different games, and in a way, trading compatibility. It's never clearly stated, especially not now. GSC was a special case for being the first true sequel, and because the link with Kanto would be important afterwards in the game's plot. Heck, you'd even vist Kanto after Johto. I see that as a mistake, but it's still what happens. In the other games, references or even appearance of old characters and events is to keep a sense of familiarity, as well as to link the games with one another in a given period of time, at least in the eyes of most people.

The Sevii Islands quest and Celio's quote is all the proof you need, not to mention all the proof you'll get. This is about the same "proof" you get from Diamond/Pearl. The mention of the Red Gyarados spotting in a lake "of the country" (I've had people argue with me it's not the Red Gyarados at Lake of Rage, funnily enough), which, so you know, was changed in Platinum. Something dumb I usually call Dis Continity for, since the replacement is just... eh. Then you have Jasmine's appearance. Now, for anyone who tries to argue this, Platinum, and even Diamond/Pearl, prove that Gym Leaders don't have to stay at their Gym at all times. As if there wasn't enough proof already with RBY/FRLG (Giovanni deliberatedly left his Gym without any deputy Leader... twice). While this is different for Jasmine, think about it... you find her until you can get to Sunyshore. By then, I'm sure everyone and their mother has passed through her Gym back in Johto. Gym Leaders need vacations, or time to train too. Plus, if Giovanni could say "screw you all" and close his Gym (You don't know for how long he closed it either), I'm sure any other Gym Leader can do so as well. We're dealing with morally different characters, but I don't see that the Pokémon League had any qualms with Giovanni's action, nor they forced him to name a temporary replacement, at least not by the time he made it back. Same goes for Blue, who's at Cinnabar when you find him. While his was a temporary outing, it still proves they can leave their Gyms. Maybe Jasmine was conscious enough to leave a temporary/permanent replacement, much like Wallace in Hoenn did. In any case, this is just further proof of the link between GSC and DPP. Then we have all the casual mentions of Johto places.

All these hints are nearly the same between FRLG and RSE. We have a direct mention of Lanette by Celio. On her part, Lanette has a mail from Bill, where he thanks Lanette for her collaboration in developing his Pokémon Storage System (This one was apparently lost in translation somewhat). We also have a Fame Checker entry of Bruno, where it's said that he trained with a guy named Brawly. Now, this one is easy to miss, but it was also mentioned in RS (I think it was removed in Emerald, but so were all references to other Regions by name, besides the one of Bill) by a Blackbelt at Route 127 if you speak with him after you defeat him. So yes, that's all the "proof" you'll get, since, as said, GSC was a special case. And again, the Sevii Islands quest, which was entirely about linking with Hoenn, and as such, you can't diss it easily as a "gameplay" aspect, even if Trading sure is.

 

[The Outrage]

My timeline theory basically coincides with what Orion posted atleast for the main series, though I have D/P taking place any time in between after the events of Mahogany Town to GSC's protagonist's battle with Red.

 

[Versityle]

If all that is true, why do you think the Special and Anime didn't go that direction instead it chose to go chronilogical???

 

[TTEchidna]

Because Special's Special and the anime just followed Ash for ten years. If we followed Jimmy and Marina we'd be seeing them start out LONG BEFORE ASH.

 

[DXFrost]

what if the red garados was part of a mission that they cut out? could be they left that one peace in so they didn't have to make a whole new opening.

 

[Orion-Sama]

If all that is true, why do you think the Special and Anime didn't go that direction instead it chose to go chronilogical???

Simple. The Anime and Mangas are mere promotional products for the games. They obviously can't promote a game that's yet to come out, if it's already planned at all, which I doubt was the case at any given time. They just grab the game's elements and adapt them as they want, creating their own alternate Universe in the process.

what if the red garados was part of a mission that they cut out? could be they left that one peace in so they didn't have to make a whole new opening.

That could be right, but then it wouldn't be kept on the other two references it got either. Still, if it was relevant at all to Diamond/Pearl, it would've expressely said the Lake of Sinnoh it had taken place at, or at the very least say a lake of Sinnoh/the Region. Instead, we're treated with "a lake of the country". This "Country" has been used before to refer to every Region in the handheld games so far (Kanto, Johto, Hoenn and Sinnoh), and seeing how Kanto and Hoenn have no lakes whatsoever... we're left with Johto's Lake of Rage.

You could have a point had they kept the beginning sequence in Platinum (Where the Red Gyarados docummentary was removed) all the same besides such broadcast. But both the broadcast and the entire beginning sequence changed. As such, I highly doubt the Red Gyarados was ever meant to happen at Sinnoh, but it's always been a reference to Johto's Lake of Rage and the Red Gyarados incident that happened there.

 

[DXFrost]

if it was a misson they trashed then in platinum they didn't need to re-use. i don't actualy have platinum so i don't know

 

[Shinx3000]

I was just thinking about the red garydos and have a few theories:

1) It was something random and just put in D/P games to make the game look interesting since you first start playing it.

2) It was a mission that was not used in D/P and Platinums weather change would have made the red garydos disappear and have no mention of it. Or the creators realised that the mission was not put in D/P and it was taken out in the Platinum game.

3) It was linked to the G/S/C games and the Sinnoh story was set around the same time as the older games.

 

[VeggiePopper]

I still can't understand why they left the Red Gyarados story out of Platinum. I mean, previous third versions didn't alter the main plot, just expanded it (Adding Eusine in Crystal and making both teams villains in Emerald, unifying Ruby and Sapphire), so this gives me a bit of a bad taste. I think Nintendo did plan to release a remake of GS and so they put that thing at the begining of DP to have a chronological link that made easier and story-wise cohesive the trade system, but then they scrapped the project, thus it wasn't needed anymore and they removed it from Platinum. But that's just my theory, we can't totally discard the GS remakes yet. But this makes me think: How does Platinum start now? What's the excuse for Lucas/Dawn and Pearl to start their journeys? Still, there would be cool if they did a GS remake and after the Red Gyarados incident, a guy at the Lake says something like "Wow, that was great, I'm making a TV report on that!... Oh, and by the way, I come from a place called Sinnoh".

On the subject: so there is no real connection between GenI and Gen III besides the one us fans have created through speculation? How dissapointing.

Still, the time-line made by Orion seems to be the most coherent so far, except for one thing: the leader challenge doesn't have to last one year. And if it does, it is not season-themed. May be in the anime it is, as the Conferences are held every once in a year giving the trainers a time limit to get their badges, but in the games (and remember, the subject of this thread is for the games, as the other universes have their own timelines well defined) that doesn't happen. So the rule you set that "every early in the year the first Leaders are challenged, and by the end of the year, the last ones" does not apply here. And that's just for the time of the start of the journeys, while there is another aspect left: the place. Not all the trainers have to start their journey in, say, Pallet and have Brock their first Gym battle. What if someone starts in Celadon and wants their first Gym battle to be with Erika or Sabrina??

 

[Orion-Sama]

I still can't understand why they left the Red Gyarados story out of Platinum. I mean, previous third versions didn't alter the main plot, just expanded it (Adding Eusine in Crystal and making both teams villains in Emerald, unifying Ruby and Sapphire), so this gives me a bit of a bad taste. I think Nintendo did plan to release a remake of GS and so they put that thing at the begining of DP to have a chronological link that made easier and story-wise cohesive the trade system, but then they scrapped the project, thus it wasn't needed anymore and they removed it from Platinum. But that's just my theory, we can't totally discard the GS remakes yet. But this makes me think: How does Platinum start now? What's the excuse for Lucas/Dawn and Pearl to start their journeys? Still, there would be cool if they did a GS remake and after the Red Gyarados incident, a guy at the Lake says something like "Wow, that was great, I'm making a TV report on that!... Oh, and by the way, I come from a place called Sinnoh".

The replacement is pretty retarded in comparison, but it's just 2 months away to find out the suck. In any case, you could be right. Also, in one way or another, they might still have a GS remakes project on the doors, as the feature of the 3 Johto Starters and the Pichu in the upcoming movie suggest. It's nothing set in stone yet, but we could be up for a surprise.

On the subject: so there is no real connection between GenI and Gen III besides the one us fans have created through speculation? How dissapointing.

Indeed. But again, this "speculation" is the best we're going to get from now on unless two Regions are important for one another in a future game of the series, so we really can't call them off either.

Still, the time-line made by Orion seems to be the most coherent so far, except for one thing: the leader challenge doesn't have to last one year. And if it does, it is not season-themed. May be in the anime it is, as the Conferences are held every once in a year giving the trainers a time limit to get their badges, but in the games (and remember, the subject of this thread is for the games, as the other universes have their own timelines well defined) that doesn't happen. So the rule you set that "every early in the year the first Leaders are challenged, and by the end of the year, the last ones" does not apply here. And that's just for the time of the start of the journeys, while there is another aspect left: the place. Not all the trainers have to start their journey in, say, Pallet and have Brock their first Gym battle. What if someone starts in Celadon and wants their first Gym battle to be with Erika or Sabrina??

I know it's for the games. However, in my own Fanon, I mix a few aspects from all the Canon Universes as it's convenient for my storytelling. In the end, that's what I think is the entire point of Pokémon: to have each fan have their own interpretation of time and every other important concept in the ever-expanding Pokéverse. I don't see the year lapse as unlikely either. It allows me to comfortably fit the Orre and Ranger "spin-offs" properly into the main timeline, and prevents any possible confusion in the flow of time. Given the extension of the Regions, it's not off either. Plus, as I stated with Colosseum, it's unlikely it took a whole year from Wes' escape to Evice's defeat. It's just a matter of placement. Same goes for Ranger and XD, but it can also apply for the mainstream games. Again, my placement is just so I can make heads and tails of the world. The main Universe my Fanon is based off are the games, and I grab very minor aspects from the others.

Starting place doesn't matters either. Proof is with how in some games, Gym Leaders can be rebattled with a much beefed-up Team, and how in GSC, the Kanto Leaders are all at very high levels. I doubt they train their Pokémon to become powerhouses and then await challengers, both rookies and veterans, and expect them to ever defeat them. Since this is a one-player experience, we think that they raise their youngling Team into more powerful Pokémon, when in reality, it's not off to assume all Gym Leaders have both their main, powerful Team, and a weaker Team so rookies can take them on without being completely obliterated, yet strong enough to pose a challenge at a given point. The games are too linear to have a different offset, so it can't be told. Plus, who says every rookie Trainer succeeds on their first journeys like the protagonists do?

I think every Gym Leader has various Teams to confront a given level of skill. Then again, it's not off to assume every rookie Trainer is at the very least advised to go to a given Gym first, and then go in a recommended order. But Gym Leaders can adapt to any sort of opponent. Platinum gives some proof with Fantina, who you can battle as the 3rd Gym Leader instead of the 5th, which is her official order, and she has a Team to confront you at that skill point in the game.

 

[Adamant]

How about "it's a game, the leaders get stronger as you go because that's how games work." It's the same reason why Bowser doesn't put lava pits too large for Mario to jump over in his castles, or why Dr. Wily doesn't attack Mega Man with any of his "only vulnerable to one particular weapon" robots until so late in the game there's no way he doesn't have that weapon on him.

 

[Orion-Sama]

How about "it's a game, the leaders get stronger as you go because that's how games work." It's the same reason why Bowser doesn't put lava pits too large for Mario to jump over in his castles, or why Dr. Wily doesn't attack Mega Man with any of his "only vulnerable to one particular weapon" robots until so late in the game there's no way he doesn't have that weapon on him.

How about "That reasoning doesn't cuts it in this Forum and section"? We're suppossed to speak about how the Pokémon World works, with a more realistic approach. You're right, but it apports nothing to the discussion at hand. Plus, given the contents, it's not off to consider my theory about Gym Leaders. I wouldn't have come up with it in the first place otherwise.

I see this kind of posts every time at SPPf. I honestly expect much better posts here... but I can never expect too much, it seems.

 

[VeggiePopper]

How about "That reasoning doesn't cuts it in this Forum and section"? We're suppossed to speak about how the Pokémon World works, with a more realistic approach. You're right, but it apports nothing to the discussion at hand. Plus, given the contents, it's not off to consider my theory about Gym Leaders. I wouldn't have come up with it in the first place otherwise.

I see this kind of posts every time at SPPf. I honestly expect much better posts here... but I can never expect too much, it seems.

But "that reasoning" does work even plot-wise and logically in the Poké-world (and so, it cuts in this forum and section): in GS, the Levels for the Kanto Gym Leaders are different from themselves in R/B/Y, and even among themselves: now Brock is stronger than Sabrina and so on. In Platinum, as Fantina and Crasher Wake's order is altered so are their Pokémon's levels. I think the eight leaders of each region have more or less the same strength, but just for gameplay reasons they are presented progressively stronger each one from the previous (if it wasn't so, Brock, Falkner, Roxanne and Roark wouldn't even deserve to be Gym Leaders with Pokémon under Lv.10), and so, my original point that trainers can start their journeys anywhere and at any time does fit.

 

[Orion-Sama]

But "that reasoning" does work even plot-wise and logically in the Poké-world (and so, it cuts in this forum and section): in GS, the Levels for the Kanto Gym Leaders are different from themselves in R/B/Y, and even among themselves: now Brock is stronger than Sabrina and so on. In Platinum, as Fantina and Crasher Wake's order is altered so are their Pokémon's levels. I think the eight leaders of each region have more or less the same strength, but just for gameplay reasons they are presented progressively stronger each one from the previous (if it wasn't so, Brock, Falkner, Roxanne and Roark wouldn't even deserve to be Gym Leaders with Pokémon under Lv.10), and so, my original point that trainers can start their journeys anywhere and at any time does fit.

Afraid not. If that was true, having certain dialogues of some Gym Leaders/Elite Four wouldn't make sense. Roark and Aaron clearly say that the Gym Leaders/Elite Four above them are much stronger than they are. While the series has some Genre Savvy bits and even sometimes hangs a lampshade on the fact that it's a game, such quotes can't be ditched as such.

Obviously they're presented as stronger than the previous for gameplay reasons, but it doesn't means in any moment that they're all equally skilled. Simply put, they're not. Likewise, it's downright impossible to assume any rookie out there can hope to take on Gym Leaders with a single Team once they become stronger. Unless the Gym Leader restrains his/her Pokémon to the highest extremes so the starting Trainers with weak-ish Pokémon can stand a chance, it's downright impossible to match up, say, Roark's Rampardos VS a rookie's Luxio. Plus, I think we shouldn't take the Anime into consideration for this discussion either, given what you said about my yearly theory? You sure have, since, unless you grind in crazy proportions and take the most advantage of Type Match-ups, an unevolved Pokémon will never stand against an evolved Pokémon that's several levels higher. Of course, the Anime presents more realistic battles, so it can't be ditched completely. However, if we take that into account, then so can we take into account the yearly Leagues. Once again, I stand by my theory that they have various Teams to take on different skill levels. Also, if they were all equally skilled, Norman wouldn't refuse your challenge until you get 4 Badges. This leads me to think that the latter Gym Leaders all keep their strongest Team around, while the ones below can shift. Of course, Fantina kinda contradicts this.

I agree with you that any rookie Trainer can take on the Gyms in any order desired, but I still think there's a recommended order for the eight. Whether a Rookie accepts it or not is up to him/her. Likewise, I think Gym Leaders can resort to other Teams to match up Trainers of a given level. Gameplay aspects are tricky always, but I don't see the Gym Leaders' escalating strength as solely gameplay-based.

By the way, only Falkner has Pokémon below Level 10. Brock's lowest-leveled Pokémon is Level 12 (Level 10 in Yellow, but I don't think that one matters); Roxanne's is also 12 (14 in Ruby/Sapphire); Roark's is 12 as well.

In any case, this deviates from the Thread's point. Whether rookies begin with the recommended order or not, I think there's enough time in a year to confront all of them, even if you lose several times. There's a 3-month offset after all, assuming a Leader takes around 1 month to be defeated in average. So yeah, I see no conflict between a given Gym Leader order and my timeline theory.