Minutemen

[Girafarig_Magcargo]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/06/ny...on&oref=slogin

The founder of the Minuteman Project, a organization that searches for illegal immigrants along the border and alerts the Border Patrol, tries to speak at Columbia U, and obviously there's some kind of protest. What's really nuts is that a bunch of crazies with signs like "No one is illegal!" and the like actually charge up the stage and attack him. Eventually, there's a fight between pro and anti-Minuteman groups, and what's really strange is that the security guards don't do anything.

This student summed it up perfectly in the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfnn7wTgoE8

Honestly, liberals have degenerated into a bunch of kids with temper tantrums. No wonder no one gives them respect with dumb stumps like this.

 

[Fig]

So left-wing nutjobs attacked right-wing nutjobs. And?

(Also, according to the cheese-man (Mozz), they're anarchists, not liberals)

 

[Girafarig_Magcargo]

It basically discredits the rest of the liberal movement (as much as you can discredit rock bottom). That and the fact that stupid stunts like this show that the liberal movement has no real argument against the Minutemen.

But it's not like there's anything wrong with the Minutemen. When the Border Patrol is unable to monitor all areas effectively, it's good that there are people who can fill in the gaps and alert the authorities.

 

[Fig]

If the organization 1)Restricted its actions only where the problem actually is (ie, Mexico), and 2)put itself clearly under the authority and oversight of the government, there'd be nothing wrong with them

As far as I know, they do neither of these things. Law-enforcement does not belong in the hand of private organizations ; and anyone who think there is either a point or a need to patrol the Canadian border (and it's a known fact that the organization has been planning to move there) more than deserve being called a nutjob.

Also, refer to what I pointed out Mozz had to say on this : an Anarchist is NOT a liberal.

Then again, discrediting the liberals in your eyes is not exactly a feat. It's not like you're known for your intellectualy balanced and well-thought-out posts on Bulbagarden.

 

[GrnMarvl14]

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with gun-toting vigilantes. Nevermind that they recently put up signs in Hispanic portions of OKC that said "we're watching you". Psshhh, nothing wrong with targeting an entire portion of a city purely because of their background. It's what America was founded on. All the way back to the Pilgrims.

Listen, attacking a group who were merely talking isn't right (unless it's the KKK or another similar pure-hate group, then where do I sign up?), and I'm not ENTIRELY against what the Minutemen do. But...they are a bit on the cuckoo side. Building six foot tall fences in hundred foot stretches (because Mexicans can't climb OR walk around things) and waving guns at people just wanting a better life (well...most just want a better life) with no real method of regulating who's involved isn't my idea of a positive American effort.

 

[Fig]

Plus, as I said, anyone who want to patrol the Canadian border against illegal immigration is a nutjob.

"Poor" canadians do NOT want to get in the States. Why would they? They have free healthcare and welfare here! The few people who DO want to cross the border are wealthy, trained people - and they do so legally, because they'll have no problems (and lots of advantages) moving in.

(As far as terrorists goes, there's been - in the past several years - exactly, what, one such case, the one near Seattle? How many Canadians among the 9-11 guys, again? Heck, the only case of cross-border terrorism I remember since 9-11 went the OTHER way - an american encouraging those toronto kids that got arrested).

So yeah. Anyone who want to waste his time patroling that border = nutjob.

 

[Girafarig_Magcargo]

If the organization 1)Restricted its actions only where the problem actually is (ie, Mexico), and 2)put itself clearly under the authority and oversight of the government, there'd be nothing wrong with them

The government is so overstretched that it cannot adequately patrol the border, and there's we can really do about Mexico unless we just annex them and build the country ourselves. And the Minutemen don't actually arrest anyone, they basically snitch on the immigrants.

As far as I know, they do neither of these things. Law-enforcement does not belong in the hand of private organizations ; and anyone who think there is either a point or a need to patrol the Canadian border (and it's a known fact that the organization has been planning to move there) more than deserve being called a nutjob.

Gee, I guess we need to get rid of all the security guards and etc. since private companies obviously can't do law enforcement.

Since the Canadian border is for many stretches unguarded, it's good that there are people out there who will alert the authorities if something happens.

Also, refer to what I pointed out Mozz had to say on this : an Anarchist is NOT a liberal.

Then again, discrediting the liberals in your eyes is not exactly a feat. It's not like you're known for your intellectualy balanced and well-thought-out posts on Bulbagarden.

Oh, wow, you burned me on that one. Guess I'll have to go cry now.

(As far as terrorists goes, there's been - in the past several years - exactly, what, one such case, the one near Seattle? How many Canadians among the 9-11 guys, again? Heck, the only case of cross-border terrorism I remember since 9-11 went the OTHER way - an american encouraging those toronto kids that got arrested).

There was only one instance of hijacked planes used as terrorist weapons, so obviously we don't have to worry about that.

Look, you can't just leave such a gaping hole unguarded and expect it to be fine forever. To believe that we'll be okay with such a weak spot is ridiculously naive.

 

[Zeta]

All this illegal immgrant crap is just thinly veiled racism against Hispanics. To quote an actual commentator on FoxNews: "White people, do your duty and have babies so we won't be outbred by the Mexicans". Sadly, I am not exaggerating or fabricating that particular quote.

Its the modern day version of "Irish need not apply". This bandwagon of Repubs beating the anti-immigration drum is nothing more than them promising to keep American "white and pure".

And private vigilante groups are NEVER a good idea for reasons that should be obvious. Especially in cases like this where the chief motivation of said group tends to be xenophobia and poorly-disguised racism.

 

[Fig]

GM, WHAT is going to happen along the Canadian border that warrant this sort of thing? (Pot smuggling doesn't even come close, what little of it there is)

Anything that has a chance of happening along the border, will not be done by people crossing the border on foot. People crossing the border on foot is the only thing that's even likely to happen in the unpatroled area.

Oh, that, and people going across the border in cross-border villages (there are a few of them).

Were you planning to have minutemen around in those towns denouncing people when they leave their Canadian house to go to the US grocery on the other side of the border, and when they come back to their US house from visiting the town library on the Canadian side?

Minutemen on the Canadian border is nutjobism (not to mention the ridiculous right-wing paranoia) at work.

 

[Girafarig_Magcargo]

All this illegal immgrant crap is just thinly veiled racism against Hispanics. To quote an actual commentator on FoxNews: "White people, do your duty and have babies so we won't be outbred by the Mexicans". Sadly, I am not exaggerating or fabricating that particular quote.

What? The largest number of illegal immigrants come from Mexico. It's not our fault Mexico is made up of Hispanics. Illegal immigration is illegal, and if the illegals that we catch en route to America are Hispanic, so be it.

The idea of "outbreeding the Mexicans" is quite racist, though.

 

[Zeta]

GM, WHAT is going to happen along the Canadian border that warrant this sort of thing? (Pot smuggling doesn't even come close, what little of it there is)

Maybe they're afraid the Canadians are going to smuggle in decent healthcare, education, and gay marriage into America?

What? The largest number of illegal immigrants come from Mexico. It's not our fault Mexico is made up of Hispanics. Illegal immigration is illegal, and if the illegals that we catch en route to America are Hispanic, so be it.

The issue is a topic that touches on racism because this feeling of resentment towards the illegals blends over to all Mexicans and hispanics in general. Especially in areas that have large populations of those minorities. It doesn't take a large leap of thought or speech to go from "Illegal Mexicans Go Home" to "Mexicans Go Home", which is usually what the rhetoric seems to be degenerating into lately. A large group of caucasian right-wingers feel threatened that the Hispanic population in America is growing enough to become significantly visible in most cities. The feeling one gets from such a turn of events is more or less: "We had to get used to the BLACKS, but this is too much!"

 

[Girafarig_Magcargo]

GM, WHAT is going to happen along the Canadian border that warrant this sort of thing? (Pot smuggling doesn't even come close, what little of it there is)

Anything that has a chance of happening along the border, will not be done by people crossing the border on foot. People crossing the border on foot is the only thing that's even likely to happen in the unpatroled area.

Oh, that, and people going across the border in cross-border villages (there are a few of them).

Were you planning to have minutemen around in those towns denouncing people when they leave their Canadian house to go to the US grocery on the other side of the border, and when they come back to their US house from visiting the town library on the Canadian side?

Minutemen on the Canadian border is nutjobism (not to mention the ridiculous right-wing paranoia) at work.

Smuggling goods across the border, correspondence, using one side to hide from another, etc. To think that terrorists could pass up such a juicy target is, as I said before, dangerously naive.

The Minutemen are more likely going to watch the sparsely populated areas where it's easier to find suspicious activity.

The issue is a topic that touches on racism because this feeling of resentment towards the illegals blends over to all Mexicans and hispanics in general. Especially in areas that have large populations of those minorities. It doesn't take a large leap of thought or speech to go from "Illegal Mexicans Go Home" to "Mexicans Go Home", which is usually what the rhetoric seems to be degenerating into lately. A large group of caucasian right-wingers feel threatened that the Hispanic population in America is growing enough to become significantly visible in most cities. The feeling one gets from such a turn of events is more or less: "We had to get used to the BLACKS, but this is too much!"

This is why political groups representing legal Mexican immigrants need to come out hard against illegals because it makes them look bad. It's certainly not good when people suspect you of being illegal just because you are Mexican, but there needs to be more from the Mexican community against illegal immigration if they want to help lift this stigma.

 

[GrnMarvl14]

Actually, in all fairness (and I LOATHE defending John Gibson), that quote has been taken out of context to an extreme degree. There's better quotes. Like O'Reilly comparing an illegal Mexican immigrant who killed a white woman to 9/11 (DIRECTLY COMPARING IT, i.e. "this is like 9/11").

GM, WHAT is going to happen along the Canadian border that warrant this sort of thing? (Pot smuggling doesn't even come close, what little of it there is)

In all honesty, "what little of it there is" involves massive operations involving helicopters, well-built tunnels, and god knows WHAT else. But it's coming across both borders, AND the seas. So...y'know...losing battle and all that. But random civilians watching the Canadian border is really just sad.

It's not our fault Mexico is made up of Hispanics.

No, but it IS our fault American companies are sending jobs down there and making Mexicans work for sub-standard wages so they're forced to come up here looking for better jobs. Although it's their fault that they have such shitty leaders. But, then again, we DID acquire most of the American land they reside within FROM Mexico in largely illegal (even by the standards of the day) wars.

And where's the hatred for the tens of thousands of illegal Chinese immigrants? The illegal Irish immigrants (yes...there ARE illegal Irish immigrants)? And...well...others. Cubans, for example. They're fairly welcomed in Florida.

 

[Beautiful Day]

All this illegal immgrant crap is just thinly veiled racism against Hispanics.

What 'non-racist' action do you think we should take against illegal immigration itself?

A large group of caucasian right-wingers feel threatened that the Hispanic population in America is growing enough to become significantly visible in most cities. The feeling one gets from such a turn of events is more or less: "We had to get used to the BLACKS, but this is too much!"

The writer of Ray Nagin's lovely speech isn't exactly a caucasian right-winger.

I'll assume you're not accusing members of just a single race of that fear.

 

[Fig]

Smuggling goods across the border,

Last I checked, virtually all the cross-border good smuggling went south-to-north. That makes such smuggling a CANADIAN concern ; America actually benefits from it.

Virtually the only sort of north-to-south is pot, and minutemen looking to meddle in that ARE nutjobs ; they're essentialy signing their own death warrants. Drug traders are NOT for amateurs to handle in any way.

using one side to hide from another

Kindly get out of the XIXth century. Canadian and US police are always collaborating ; using one side of the border to hide from the other where serious crimes are concerned is a losing strategy.

To think that terrorists could pass up such a juicy target is, as I said before, dangerously naive.

And what, exactly, make you think there are more terrorists in Canada than in the United States?

I know it's a popular american myth that Canada is aiding and harboring terrorists who exists only to hit you, but there's just about as much known cases of US-harbored terrorists working against Canada than of the reverse (the recent Toronto arrests VS the 1999 border crossing incident).

Canada is no more a haven for terrorists than America itself.

The Minutemen are more likely going to watch the sparsely populated areas where it's easier to find suspicious activity.

What criminal activities actually take place in the mildly populated areas (south-west Québec, south-east Ontario and west BC borders, not Saskat.,Manitoba, etc), actually - because they're much easier to access for the criminal organizations, and much closer to interesting smuggling markets and terror targets.

And most of it involve just plain out-thinking the border guards, or using the native reservations on the border...and again, I'd class anyone who intend to watch the reservations as a suicidal nutjob.

 

[Girafarig_Magcargo]

Actually, in all fairness (and I LOATHE defending John Gibson), that quote has been taken out of context to an extreme degree. There's better quotes. Like O'Reilly comparing an illegal Mexican immigrant who killed a white woman to 9/11 (DIRECTLY COMPARING IT, i.e. "this is like 9/11").



In all honesty, "what little of it there is" involves massive operations involving helicopters, well-built tunnels, and god knows WHAT else. But it's coming across both borders, AND the seas. So...y'know...losing battle and all that. But random civilians watching the Canadian border is really just sad.



No, but it IS our fault American companies are sending jobs down there and making Mexicans work for sub-standard wages so they're forced to come up here looking for better jobs. Although it's their fault that they have such shitty leaders. But, then again, we DID acquire most of the American land they reside within FROM Mexico in largely illegal (even by the standards of the day) wars.

And where's the hatred for the tens of thousands of illegal Chinese immigrants? The illegal Irish immigrants (yes...there ARE illegal Irish immigrants)? And...well...others. Cubans, for example. They're fairly welcomed in Florida.

Illegal immigration from Mexico is the largest source and easiest to combat. It's harder to smuggle yourself across the ocean than to get across the land border.

Last I checked, virtually all the cross-border good smuggling went south-to-north. That makes such smuggling a CANADIAN concern ; America actually benefits from it.


Virtually the only sort of north-to-south is pot, and minutemen looking to meddle in that ARE nutjobs ; they're essentialy signing their own death warrants. Drug traders are NOT for amateurs to handle in any way.

Perhaps if we're talking about major drug cartels importing cocaine, but this is local dealers.
Quote:
using one side to hide from another

Kindly get out of the XIXth century. Canadian and US police are always collaborating ; using one side of the border to hide from the other where serious crimes are concerned is a losing strategy.

I mean literally hiding in the wilderness on one side to escape from the other. Yes, there is collaboration, but even between two strong police agencies there's a huge amount of border to cover.

Quote:
To think that terrorists could pass up such a juicy target is, as I said before, dangerously naive.

And what, exactly, make you think there are more terrorists in Canada than in the United States?

I know it's a popular american myth that Canada is aiding and harboring terrorists who exists only to hit you, but there's just about as much known cases of US-harbored terrorists working against Canada than of the reverse (the recent Toronto arrests VS the 1999 border crossing incident).

Canada is no more a haven for terrorists than America itself.

It's not that Canada already is crawling with terrorists, it's the potential that terrorists could enter either nation and take advantage of the borders.

It's also pointless to compare incidents since after all there's only been one instance of hijacked planes used as weapons against major U.S. targets, so obviously it's not a major threat. That and the fact that the vast border means that there may be terrorists who have used the border as a means of transit between Canada and the U.S.

Quote:
The Minutemen are more likely going to watch the sparsely populated areas where it's easier to find suspicious activity.

What criminal activities actually take place in the mildly populated areas (south-west Québec, south-east Ontario and west BC borders, not Saskat.,Manitoba, etc), actually - because they're much easier to access for the criminal organizations, and much closer to interesting smuggling markets and terror targets.

The basic point is that it is extremely foolish and naive to do nothing about such a large vulnerability.

And most of it involve just plain out-thinking the border guards, or using the native reservations on the border...and again, I'd class anyone who intend to watch the reservations as a suicidal nutjob.

If they're willing to risk themselves for the nation, then that's certainly their decision.

 

[The Big Al]

What's funny is they want to protect us from threat on our borders and yet they vote for and support the bastards who cut Michigan's border security funds despite having the longest international border sans Alaska and maybe Texas.

The Minutemen would be better named The Xenophobes of America. In fact, calling themselves "Minutemen" is an insult to the militias of the revolution. They aren't protecting us from an invading army with malicous intent. They're intimidating people who only want a better life.

If they really want to do some good, they should look for coyotes heading for the border from the US and make sure employers treat and pay immegrants fairly. That's where the real abuses are occuring.

 

[Girafarig_Magcargo]

What's funny is they want to protect us from threat on our borders and yet they vote for and support the bastards who cut Michigan's border security funds despite having the longest international border sans Alaska and maybe Texas.

The Minutemen would be better named The Xenophobes of America. In fact, calling themselves "Minutemen" is an insult to the militias of the revolution. They aren't protecting us from an invading army with malicous intent. They're intimidating people who only want a better life.

There seems to be something here that makes people ridiculously naive. Sure, the vast majority of illegals are just poor people looking for jobs, but there are also major problems with drug runners and gangs that use the easy transit across the border for illicit purposes. That's not even mentioning the danger of a terrorist coming across the border.

If they really want to do some good, they should look for coyotes heading for the border from the US and make sure employers treat and pay immegrants fairly. That's where the real abuses are occuring.

You can't catch only coyotes while allowing other illegal immigrants in. The only surefire way of stopping coyotes would be to apprehend everyone trying to get across the border.

And the Minutemen should stick to patrolling the border, because trying to keep companies from hiring immigrants could easily devolve into them heckling anyone who hires Mexicans.

 

[The Big Al]

You're naive. All 19 9/11 hijackers came through our immegration system. They were here legally. So your terror arguement fails right then and there.

Drug smugglers. Open the border. If we had an open border, the people coming here for jobs would come through border crossings because all they'd need would be a photo ID and some time to wait for a background check. The drug smugglers wouldn't have as much cover and be easier to find.

Gangs. Have a "Not in my backyard" policy. If someone comes here and causes trouble, they should arrested, finger printed and mug shot, and then deported with thier name, face, and prints given to all border crossings.

It's like a chinese finger puzzle. The more we crack down, the harder our job. If we loosen up, we might solve our problems.

 

[Girafarig_Magcargo]

You're naive. All 19 9/11 hijackers came through our immegration system. They were here legally. So your terror arguement fails right then and there.

OMG ONE EXAMPLE I IS TEH DEFEATED!!!111111oneoneone

By the way, great comeback. "You're naive." "NO U ARE!!11"

You suffer from a grave lack of imagination. Just because it hasn't happened once doesn't mean it won't happen again. I'm can't be the naive one if I actually take threats seriously.

Drug smugglers. Open the border. If we had an open border, the people coming here for jobs would come through border crossings because all they'd need would be a photo ID and some time to wait for a background check. The drug smugglers wouldn't have as much cover and be easier to find.

Uh, we have an open border. Even now you don't need much to go between Canada and the US or the US and Mexico.

But I don't even get your point here. Smugglers would either forge documents or go around the crossings. What would an open border do?

Gangs. Have a "Not in my backyard" policy. If someone comes here and causes trouble, they should arrested, finger printed and mug shot, and then deported with thier name, face, and prints given to all border crossings.

Wow, that sounds like, oh, I don't know, current policy perhaps?

It's like a chinese finger puzzle. The more we crack down, the harder our job. If we loosen up, we might solve our problems.

Gee, thanks, Aristotle. With those words of wisdom how will the terrorists ever win.