Mysteries of Johto revisited

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BMGf members who know me are probably aware of my interest in Johto's mythology, which I find much more interesting than Hoenn's and Sinnoh's because it engages more thought, and cannot be ascribed to real-world legends. But considering that it has been ten years since we were introduced to the legends of Johto, I have grown a little tired of the ambiguity, and what I used to cite as a high point of the Generation II games, I now see as a falling point of the remakes.

Back in September when the Japanese script of the remakes was made available, I realized that certain important references from Crystal had been omitted. Contrary to popular belief, the subplot with Eusine and Suicune is quite different from what it used to be, and at no point in the new games is it stated that the legendary beasts are connected to Ho-Oh, that Suicune is testing the player to see if they are worthy of meeting Ho-Oh, or that Suicune shares a cooperative bond with the Unown. Instead, the subplot is about Suicune wanting to entrust itself to a strong trainer, who turns out to be the player rather than Eusine. That is really all there is to it.

The history of Ecruteak City's two towers is not touched upon in the remakes, either. In the original Gold and Silver games, the only thing said about the towers is that each one used to be the roost of a powerful flying Pokémon, but when the western town burned down, both Pokémon disappeared. In Crystal, the original name of the west tower was revealed to be the Brass Tower, and the history of the two towers was revealed in a fair amount of detail:

Crystal said:
The two TOWERS are said to have been built to foster friendship and hope between POKéMON and people. That was 700 years ago, but the ideal still remains important today.
In the past, there were two nine-tier towers here. The BRASS TOWER, which was said to awaken POKéMON, and the TIN TOWER, where POKéMON were said to rest. The view from the tops of the TOWERS must have been magnificent. At the time, an immense, silver-colored POKéMON was said to make its roost atop the BRASS TOWER. However... About 150 years ago, a lightning bolt struck one of the TOWERS. It was engulfed in flames that raged for three days. A sudden downpour finally put out the blaze. And that is how the BURNED TOWER came to be.
When the BRASS TOWER burned down, three nameless POKéMON were said to have perished. It was tragic. However... A rainbow-colored POKéMON... In other words... HO-OH descended from the sky and gave new life to the three POKéMON. They are... SUICUNE, ENTEI and RAIKOU. That is what they say.
When the legendary POKéMON appeared... They struck terror in those who saw their rise. And... Some even took to futile attacks. The legendary POKéMON, knowing their own power, fled, ignoring the frightened people.

HeartGold and SoulSilver omit the above references, since the Sage characters from the Tin Tower are absent. Only one Crystal reference, not found in Gold and Silver, remains in tact:

In the distant past... When this tower burned in a fire, three nameless Pokémon perished in it. Then, a rainbow-hued Pokémon descended from the sky and somehow brought them back... The people were afraid of power such as the rainbow-hued Pokémon had shown. They tried to control it by force. The nameless Pokémon made no attempt to fight back. Instead, their great sorrow compelled them to leave. This legend has been passed down by the Ecruteak Gym Leader. Me? I was a Trainer way back when. Ho ho ho!
Apparently, the Japanese script refers to Ho-Oh, as opposed to the beasts, as the one who left Ecruteak instead of retaliating against the humans (the text is vague because of the use of a generic pronoun that is not necessarily singular). At any rate, the remakes differ from Crystal in that they state Ho-Oh was the one under attack after the resurrection.

What do the remakes have to add, though? Unfortunately, the Kimono Girls subplot doesn't contribute anything to the mythology, since the characters never explain why they want the player to meet Ho-Oh/Lugia. However, there is one interesting reference in SoulSilver that I only noticed while going over the English script. The following is said by the guardian of the Whirl Islands' basin before the Silver Wing is found, so few players are likely to come across it:

SoulSilver said:
A long time ago, the Whirl Islands used to be one large island. There were two countries fighting over the island back then. LUGIA, the guardian of the island, got upset and cast lightning bolts to tear the island into four pieces, then disappeared into the deep end of the waterfall basin... I will let you through if you bring the Silver Wing, which is said to have fallen from LUGIA. But the true challenge is whether LUGIA will appear in front of you. What LUGIA has longed for is the invisible trust between people and Pokémon... Or the person who can restore such a relationship...

I find it a little odd that Game Freak opted to introduce a completely new story, rather than shedding light on Lugia's involvement in the Brass Tower incident (which is never mentioned by name in the remakes, and unlike in Crystal, it is not clearly pointed out that Lugia was ever there). That said, this new angle is interesting for two reasons: 1) The mention of warring countries; 2) The contrast between Lugia's somewhat ruthless handling of the Whirl Islands situation, and Ho-Oh's merciful attitude towards its attackers.

Who were the two countries?

The known regions are very clearly not referred to as separate countries in modern days, but was that the case over 100 years ago? While the side opposing the people of Johto could have come from a faraway place, the Whirl Islands are rather conveniently situated between two different regions: Johto and the island of Cianwood. What if the region west to Johto (and east to Hoenn) used to be a separate country, and as a result of Lugia's actions it was unified with Johto and the rest of the nation? It might have also been decided at that point that the Whirl Islands (now no longer one island) and part of the island of Cianwood, would become territory of the Johto region, although the division was no longer pertinent.

Is Lugia as benevolent as Ho-Oh?

HeartGold and SoulSilver diverge when it comes to the Kimono Girls' event, and which bird really wants to see the trust between humans and Pokémon restored. Remember that in each game, the remaining bird is merely made available later on, and nothing of note is said about it. However, the sole reference to the Burned Tower is in both games, so even SoulSilver players are exposed to what little is told about Ho-Oh and the legendary beasts.

It also stands out to me that like in the original games, the legendary birds are only tied to both Lugia and Ho-Oh in that they are flying Pokémon. Despite the fact that their habitats were retconned into the remakes, no reference implies that the birds have anything meaningful to do with Lugia in the game canon. In light of this, I think it can be safely ruled out that Lugia is their "master", because the bird trio are not even shrouded with any mystery (similar reasoning can be applied to why Jolteon, Flareon and Vaporeon are not the legendary beasts' origins; there would have been no reason to leave that tidbit out of Crystal if it had been true).

To me it also stands out that Lugia created lightning bolts to tear the island it was protecting. We know from Crystal that the Brass Tower was burned down because it had been hit by a lightning bolt. A coincidence? I think not; I have always suspected that the thunder wasn't a mere natural occurrence, and that it was the intervention of some Pokémon. But could it really have been Lugia? Just like what happened with the Whirl Islands, it would have had to have a reason for instigating an attack on its own habitat.

While I think that it is Ho-Oh that continues to trust humans and that Lugia lost that faith after the war, I don't actually believe that Lugia was responsible for compromising that relationship by way of destroying the Brass Tower. In fact, I suspect that Lugia was the one who put out the fire by summoning the rain, and that something else was the cause of the lightning. But if Lugia itself had the power to start the fire, perhaps it was being mimicked by someone: a shape-shifter.

What's next?

Naturally, I am worried that the remakes are the last time that any of this will ever be brought up again. I would like to take the opportunity to say how much I hate the fact that the Celebi event slated for the upcoming movie promotion, is going to answer a question about Giovanni that could have been addressed in any number of ways not dealing with time travel. I think that it was bad enough that Team Rocket had anything to do with Johto in the first place (they could have stayed in Kanto and had the same plot there), when it was always clear that there were far more impending threats to the region in the past. But to have the last Johto event be about two human characters and not the Pokémon themselves? That is nothing short of a waste.

Fortunately, hope is not lost. If past movie distributions are any indication, the event legendary beasts and Celebi have a good chance to unlock added content in the Generation V games. This is not the place to be discussing that, but I would like to think that the legendary beasts, which are neither the mascots of the remakes nor event-exclusive Pokémon, were chosen for the movie and its promotion for a reason. My theory is that Zoroark's ability to transform into them in the movie is an allusion to their having been three Zoroa before Ho-Oh resurrected them. Zoroark may not be a legendary Pokémon, but neither is Unown, and that certainly did not prevent it from being associated with more than one (Suicune and then Arceus). Furthermore, having a link to a past region would be a far better outcome for Zoroa and Zoroark than to have to have no story at all (like Riolu and Lucario).

Speaking of the Unown, I am not worried about them for the simple fact that the Sinjoh Ruins event has already made them relevant to the Pokémon world as a whole. Unlike in Crystal, the in-game dialogue blatantly states that there is still more to find about the Unown and the Ruins of Alph (and now the Sinjoh Ruins and Arceus), so there is a fairly good chance that this will not turn out to be a red herring when the new generation is released a mere year after the event.
 
so in the remakes there are even more connections to regions in the past.

i love to see a future pokemon game where we could be able to travel to all regions as a big adventure and understanding that all the regions are connected by humans and pokemons past history


thanks Unown Lord for joining all part of the history of Johto
 
It's good to know that I'm not the only who cares about any of this. But I have to say that I'm a little bit frustrated at the low number of views compared to threads about mundane topics like the identity of Giovanni's child or the possible relation between Agatha and Bertha (and there are much worse examples out there).

moa said:
i love to see a future pokemon game where we could be able to travel to all regions as a big adventure and understanding that all the regions are connected by humans and pokemons past history
It's safe to say that that this will only happen after Generation VI, when the last region corresponding to Japan has been introduced. But in the meantime, now that Hoenn and Sinnoh are no longer new, Game Freak are definitely heading back to the island of Johto and Kanto. I'd be quite surprised if they didn't continue to touch upon the connections between the different regions as has been done in HeartGold and SoulSilver. Emphasis on Johto is highly feasible when you consider that one of the remaining regions is adjacent to it (just like Kanto) and quite possibly shares a certain piece of its history, while the other region (where the Sinjoh Ruins are) is already known to have been influenced by Johto's ancient civilization and the mystery of the Unown.

Even though the remakes are not as rich with mythology as Crystal was (and even the latter could have definitely been improved in that regard, as evidenced by the existence of this thread), I have high hopes that what happened with Ruby and Sapphire will not be repeated in Generation V. The Generation II Pokémon had been seemingly exhausted by the time Ruby and Sapphire were released, but this year Generation V is being promoted alongside Celebi and the legendary beasts. Suffice to say, I don't see Game Freak going out of their way to make Johto obscure again, although this kind of optimism requires caution.
 
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Your theories are interesting. I myself don't usually go this in-depth in video game stories, but it can be fun. Hopefully Game Freak does eventually reveal how the different myths and legends are related to show the full backstory/past of the Pokemon universe.
 
You've got some great theories. Now if only the script writers would take initiative and actually canonize some of them.
 
All i have to say from hearing your thoughts is, either these games retconned alot or explored stuff that was not explored before. I don't have HGSS yet(idk y) but it seems these games are what I am not expecting.
 
All i have to say from hearing your thoughts is, either these games retconned alot or explored stuff that was not explored before. I don't have HGSS yet(idk y) but it seems these games are what I am not expecting.
I'm not sure what you mean. They essentially removed the juicier Crystal references and added two lines about the Whirl Islands to SoulSilver's script. I definitely prefer what Crystal did, but even that left a lot to be desired to anyone with minimal interest in these legends. The bulk of the script is faithful to Gold and Silver and has nothing to do with Johto's folklore.

Would you really be disappointed if the games explored Johto's history in full?
 
I'm not sure what you mean. They essentially removed the juicier Crystal references and added two lines about the Whirl Islands to SoulSilver's script. I definitely prefer what Crystal did, but even that left a lot to be desired to anyone with minimal interest in these legends. The bulk of the script is faithful to Gold and Silver and has nothing to do with Johto's folklore.

Would you really be disappointed if the games explored Johto's history in full?

Well, i just thought things over again, I would love for more Johto history, Johto is my favorite region so yea, I would not be disappointed. One question though, does HGSS contradict any past or currents games? Like for example, the Tin Tower is the Bell Tower now, was it referred as the Tin Tower in Generation III or DPPt?
 
One question though, does HGSS contradict any past or currents games?
For some reason, Game Freak wanted to keep it a mystery whether or not the Sevii Islands are supposed to exist in the Generation II/IV timeline. There is also the matter of Steven referring to himself as the Hoenn Champion without mentioning Wallace or May/Brendan. But these are not necessarily retcons, as not even Agatha and Lorelei are mentioned anywhere in the games.

There is one definite contradiction, though. In DPPt's Oak Letter event, Professor Oak mentions there being a white rock in Kanto similar to the one in Sinnoh; nothing fits that description in HGSS.

Like for example, the Tin Tower is the Bell Tower now, was it referred as the Tin Tower in Generation III or DPPt?
Yes. It is referred to as the Tin Tower by a man in Lake Valor.
 
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For some reason, Game Freak wanted to keep it a mystery whether or not the Sevii Islands are supposed to exist in the Generation II/IV timeline. There is also the matter of Steven referring to himself as the Hoenn Champion without mentioning Wallace or May/Brendan. But these are not necessarily retcons, as not even Agatha and Lorelei are mentioned anywhere in the games.
I still wonder why the Sevvi Islands were not included or mentioned and even Leaf was not mentioned but people have been speculating that the old man by the Elite Four entrance is her.

There is one definite contradiction, though. In DPPt's Oak Letter event, Professor Oak mentions there being a white rock in Kanto similar to the one in Sinnoh; nothing fits that description in HGSS.
That's kinda weird, maybe they forgot about it or just thought it was not important to include.


Yes. It is referred to as the Tin Tower by a man in Lake Valor.
What's the point on changing it now? I read on Bulbapedia that Tin and Bell are both accurate, but why now?
 
What's the point on changing it now? I read on Bulbapedia that Tin and Bell are both accurate, but why now?

As Nob Ogasawara was no longer the translator when HGSS were being adapted and/or translated, I guess the new person with the job thought by some weird reason that the Tin Tower needed a lame retcon to suit more the fact that there are suzu in the Tower and as a direct reference to the origin of the Clear and Tidal Bells (it didn't help that the HGSS script doesn't mention the Crystal original name of the Burned Tower, Brass Tower, thus the connection to the color/metal part of the place was lost), so the change was approved. I don't like in the slightest the new name, and I find it an oversight and an inconsistence with other story tidbits giving that Blue is still called by that name despite LeafGreen being the version released back in the Generation III days, and oddly the Distortion World reference (I always liked the fan term Torn) was kept instead of a new word to qualify the behavior and nature of the dimension. If you're making retcons or adaptations -e.g. Archer, Ariana- just for the sake of doing them, why not make changes to some other things as well? I wanted Charon to preserve his original name Pluto, for example.
 
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Let's try not to bring our qualms with the translators into this. There is a separate thread for that, and I, for one, see nothing wrong with continuing to use "Tin Tower" just like before. We don't need the translators' permission for that, do we?

Now, I'd like to read some input as to why Johto's history mythology is open-ended, whereas Emerald and Platinum mostly solidified the main legends of Hoenn and Sinnoh. Someone very arrogant has told me on multiple occasions that Game Freak simply don't care about the stories they've left vague. Is that really a fair assessment of the situation?

It deserves to be noted that Kanto does have its own urban legend: the tale of Mew, its offspring Mewtwo, and the scientist (Mr. Fuji) responsible for what the latter had become. We don't know much about that, either, although FireRed and LeafGreen essentially proved that Dr. Fuji is Mr. Fuji and Emerald showed us where Mew came from. I found it very disappointing that HeartGold and SoulSilver ignored that despite bringing back Mewtwo and having a Wi-Fi Mew event.

I understand why the first two generations lacked closure for the non-linear story: It was only in Crystal that Game Freak even attempted to incorporate the legendaries into the plot. But the remakes did not really rectify this due to lacking a certain touch that seems to be reserved for third versions. Now it all hinges on continuity between different generations without remakes being involved.
 
I dunno... I kinda like the open-endedness of the Johto legends.

One thing I really didn't like about the Hoenn creation legend was that it was fleshed out to the point of being considered fact. Archie/Maxie mentions that Kyogre/Groudon was said to have created the sea/land... and then turns around and states that the Pokemon is, in fact, real, that it's sleeping in X place and has been for a long time and he intends to awaken it. Like all this should be logical to everyone. This treatment of the Hoenn myth was one of the weakest points of Generation III for me.

I just think that legends should be vague. I mean, if someone can prove a legend to be true/false (or tell it in impressively minute detail) it implies that they were there during that time, thus no longer making them legends, but rather history. I find that the Johto legends are richer because of their vagueness, not in spite of it. But maybe that's just me.

Besides, the lack of information given can really make a person's imagination go wild with all the different possibilities. I really like that.
 
The legends of Johto were best because they were just legends. with Hoenn and Sinnoh, the major NPC's knew them to be real.
 
I find that the Johto legends are richer because of their vagueness, not in spite of it. But maybe that's just me.

Besides, the lack of information given can really make a person's imagination go wild with all the different possibilities. I really like that.
Don't get me wrong: I share these sentiments and the definitiveness of the Hoenn legends is precisely why I am indifferent towards the idea of Ruby and Sapphire remakes, as there are few blanks to fill. But if HeartGold and SoulSilver are the last time we'll ever experience the original Johto journey, isn't it time that we had some closure? Why is it important that we get the final say on Giovanni, but not on the legends of Ecruteak?

I think that the answers should at least be there for those who seek them, even if it requires a lot of reading between the lines. Unfortunately, I am forced to make a lot of conjectures, and while I enjoy the exercise in creative thinking, I really have no idea if my theories come close to what went through the script writers' heads. Should I care either way? Probably not, but I can't help it.
 
I think it's because the pokemon will appear somehow in future games. They kinda have to. Giovanni doesn't. So him getting closure was more important.
 
Personally speaking, I don't think that the legends of Hoenn and Sinnoh are as finite as people seem to believe.

When you get down to it, legends and mythology are just the result of ancient man trying to make sense of the world around them.

Hoenn mythology states that Groudon created the land, while Kyogre created the seas. Sinnoh mythology is even more outrageous, stating that all of creation was formed by a newbown Arceus. Are we to believe that these God-like creatures, could be not only captured by mere humans, but tamed to do their bidding as well? It would make more sense to assume that these legends are simply exaggerated descriptions of these Pokemon's natural abilities.
 
It would make more sense to assume that these legends are simply exaggerated descriptions of these Pokemon's natural abilities.

Why should it apply to just legendaries?

Pratically all the Pokédex entries should be taken with a pinch of salt.

About the game translations, it should be noted that in the original GSC games, the text had to be formated so that it could fit within the diolouge boxes, this is why certain things had to be named certain ways. With the HG/SS games, they technically have more room to work with, but they seem to have chosen to use the original GSC diolouge since they wanted to retain that element (Plus GSC fanboys would go completely batshit insane with rage).

As for the actual treatment of the game's canon (Which I don't particularly care for too much since it usually amounts to fanwanking), I'll have to get further in my games to verify, but from what the OP has posted, I'm somewhat glad that they decided to add more stuff for Lugia since I remember that it had very little involvement in the game's plot. It seemed to be Ho-oh's show and Lugia was just some big, powerful and hidden being just waiting to be stuffed in a Pokéball.

But it might also be the anime's influence since Ho-oh was treated with a god-like reverence while Lugia was treated like just a super-rare normal Pokémon.
 
These are some EXTREMELY well thought out theories, much moreso than the usual seen in the Pokemon fandom. I only hope your idea for a link with Zoroark is canonized, or the true reason explained in the future, but I'm a bit worried as usually new regions fail to explain the questions of their predecessors... in the event that they are referring to Zoroark, though, it almost HAS to be mentioned in game. I can't wait to see what (if anything) unfolds!
 
Please note: The thread is from 16 years ago.
Please take the age of this thread into consideration in writing your reply. Depending on what exactly you wanted to say, you may want to consider if it would be better to post a new thread instead.
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