N 's message

[megalatias365]

I was reading the black and white chapter of pokemon adventures, and I think i agree with n. Why do we force pokemon to battle if they want to do contests? We keep them in poke balls and let them out only when we want to?We force them to learn moves, use them wrongly and make them faint.

 

[BlackButterfree]

You have to battle to progress in the games. We keep them in Poké Balls because Game Freak has yet to implement an option for us to walk around with all six of our Pokémon like we could in the anime, manga or real world. We force them to forget useless moves so that they can be able to protect themselves from the monsters out there. But we don't use them wrongly, we use them to save the world. And IDK about you, but I always keep Revives on me so I can keep all my Pokémon alive constantly. Not that they ever do, since I trained mine right. :bounce:

Game Freak should really work on making Pokémon more diverse. As you said, not every Pokémon is suited for battling. Some are better in contests, others in musicals, movies, Pokéathlons and some might even like to do actual manual labor. We don't get enough options in Pokémon, and we really should, considering you can use Pokémon to do pretty much anything and everything.

 

[Toa of Justice]

You're right. We do force them to do stuff. But meh, I can live with that. It's not like they're real.

Not trying to be rude here, but people seem to forget that fact.

 

[Beth Pavell]

And in the games at least, N is a blatant hypocrite

 

[Norzan]

N's message in the Black and White games: Criticize people (mainly your playable character) for putting your pokemon through "harsh" battles and putting pokemon inside pokeballs, but then do the same exact thing you criticize people for.

Yeah, no wonder why i don't like this character.

 

[Esserise]

I was reading the black and white chapter of pokemon adventures, and I think i agree with n. Why do we force pokemon to battle if they want to do contests? We keep them in poke balls and let them out only when we want to?We force them to learn moves, use them wrongly and make them faint.

This is where the medium you are looking at becomes important. I can't speak to Pokémon Adventures, but in the games it is clear that Pokémon are generally okay with most of that stuff, within reason. N was indoctrinated to believe that they weren't, by way of Ghetsis keeping him sheltered and exposed only to Pokémon that had been abused. That gave N a warped perception of the world. Although he may have had something of a point, because there are people who abuse their Pokémon and treat them as tools, that does not apply universally at all.

N's message in the Black and White games: Criticize people (mainly your playable character) for putting your pokemon through "harsh" battles and putting pokemon inside pokeballs, but then do the same exact thing you criticize people for.

I believe that would be an "ends justify the means" scenario. The only way that he can realistically combat the status quo of Pokémon battles is by abiding by it, fighting fire with fire, and showing that it is flawed. And he only had to do that for as long as it took him to befriend one of the dragons and defeat Alder, because as soon as that happened, he would be able to give the order for people to release their Pokémon, thereby breaking that status quo and establishing his own anti-battling idealism in its place. And then there was the fact that he always released his Pokémon after each battle. To him, they were allies who supported his cause and were not forced to fight any more than they were willing to, and he let them go off to do as they wished as soon as they finished lending him their help.

 

[jayrachi]

If N can indeed talk to Pokemon, I would have assumed he discussed the prospect of battling alongside him with said Pokemon. This is what I loved about B/W's plot, though. It felt like an actual debate that would actually occur in the Pokemon world, and it actually for once made me question if I was really in the right this time. Of course with Team Plasma going to extremes like stealing Pokemon I did feel like I was doing the right thing, but their overall cause was believable and persuasive (well, up until the end but I won't spoil that).

 

[Osprey]

I think that if there was any "message" from N, it's not the whole "free the Pokemon" thing... I believe it comes from his character development. It shows that single-minded quests for change, without taking other people's perspectives and opinions into account, isn't the right way to change the world for the better. N was able to be an antagonist without being an evil-intentioned, malevolent force... his mislead, stubborn determination was what made him a notable foe, unlike many of the antagonists before him.

 

[Norzan]

@Endolise; It doesn't work that way, you don't show that something it's wrong by doing the same exact thing. That's like me telling people that killing is wrong by killing people.

Also, no aumont of character develpoment will make me forget his hipocrisy throughout the game, to the point of him being outright condescending. He's the main reason why i don't replay White and i also never want him to return in any future game.

 

[megalatias365]

You have to battle to progress in the games. We keep them in Poké Balls because Game Freak has yet to implement an option for us to walk around with all six of our Pokémon like we could in the anime, manga or real world. We force them to forget useless moves so that they can be able to protect themselves from the monsters out there. But we don't use them wrongly, we use them to save the world. And IDK about you, but I always keep Revives on me so I can keep all my Pokémon alive constantly. Not that they ever do, since I trained mine right. :bounce:

Game Freak should really work on making Pokémon more diverse. As you said, not every Pokémon is suited for battling. Some are better in contests, others in musicals, movies, Pokéathlons and some might even like to do actual manual labor. We don't get enough options in Pokémon, and we really should, considering you can use Pokémon to do pretty much anything and everything.

I was wasn't talking about the games i was talking about the real thing:bash:

 

[Osprey]

snip

I was wasn't talking about the games i was talking about the real thing:bash:

Okay... if you weren't talking about the games, what were you talking about? What do you mean by "the real thing"? You do realize Pokemon- and all this stuff about N- comes directly from the games, right?

 

[BlackButterfree]

snip

I was wasn't talking about the games i was talking about the real thing:bash:

Okay... if you weren't talking about the games, what were you talking about? What do you mean by "the real thing"? You do realize Pokemon- and all this stuff about N- comes directly from the games, right?

I think they mean in-universe. In which case...

I have no explanations for battles. Maybe so that Pokémon can get rid of dangerous excess energy? The Hoenn saga of the anime showed that Pikachu needs to discharge excess electricity now and then or it'll get really sick (which oddly enough didn't become a recurring problem...), so maybe all Pokémon need to do this and that's how battles came about?

People keep them in Poké Balls because Pokémon eat each other. Say you have a Wurmple and you're walking around a forest. You don't want to carry it in your arms, shielding it from Taillow. Also, it's for convenience. Why would you want to keep track of six different traveling companions when you only need to call them out for exercise and feeding time? And IDK about you but I wouldn't want my Goldeen flopping around Jagged Path.

Again, we "force" them to forget useless moves so that they can learn stronger moves they can use for protection. Wild Pokémon do this as well.

In-universe, Pokémon are used as firefighters, nurses, police officers, protectors of nature (Rangers' partners), all of which benefit mostly Pokémon. How are they used wrongly? Villainous teams are ALWAYS shown as being radical outliers in the universe.

And fainting could be the equivalent of having had a really intense workout for humans, and just being tired. This is somewhat corroborated by the fact that "fainted" Pokémon can still use out-of-battle moves. An actually unconscious being would not be capable of surfing you across oceans or flying you to another town.

 

[Karpi]

And IDK about you but I wouldn't want my Goldeen flopping around Jagged Path.

I struggle with this idea writing fanfiction. Is it immoral for a water pokemon trainer to move to Phenac City in Orre? His pokemon would be stuck in their pokeballs for most of the time. What about the owner of a Magcargo or Magmortar living in Pacifidlog Town? Or Steelix in Saffron City? It's like you have to be very very cautious about which pokemon you capture, and you have to inform them of your possible future plans and give them a chance to leave.

Owning fish pokemon is never really addressed in the games or anime at all, since all the trainers with Huntail, Lumineon, Wailord, etc only appear briefly and don't ever leave the ocean/coast.

 

[Esserise]

It doesn't work that way, you don't show that something it's wrong by doing the same exact thing. That's like me telling people that killing is wrong by killing people.

But wouldn't that just prove your point? Killing somebody out of the blue would probably seem pretty appalling to most people. In any case, that analogy doesn't quite work. We already regard killing as something that's wrong. Pokémon battles, on the other hand, are viewed in a positive light within the society of the Pokémon world. N was made to believe that they were wrong, and set out to prove that.

But even that isn't the main point that I am trying to make. In the Pokémon world, battles are how you earn recognition and credibility. N's plan was to befriend the Legendary dragon and defeat the Champion - both of which would have given him massive amounts of clout with the populace - and then to use that clout in order to convince everybody to release their Pokémon. Because if this guy has been chosen by an incredibly powerful dragon of legend and defeated the strongest Trainer in the region, then he must be no joke. Which gives him influence over the people; if this guy says "release your Pokémon, because battles hurt them" then a lot of people are going to listen. How many of them could even fight back against that? And then as public opinion turned more and more against battling and capturing Pokémon, more and more people would be pressured into releasing their Pokémon, just as Ghetsis said. And then there would be no more battling, and so N would have succeeded, and he only had to engage in something that he was morally opposed to for a comparatively short amount of time. The payoff of society bending to his will was well worth enduring a month or so of battling even though he hated it. I don't like getting shots, but I can't say that the few moments of pain isn't worth the vaccination.

to the point of him being outright condescending.

Well gosh, I would never have expected that from somebody who had been brainwashed as a kid and told for their entire life that they were a chosen one who was entirely right in their beliefs.

 

[BlackButterfree]

And IDK about you but I wouldn't want my Goldeen flopping around Jagged Path.

I struggle with this idea writing fanfiction. Is it immoral for a water pokemon trainer to move to Phenac City in Orre? His pokemon would be stuck in their pokeballs for most of the time. What about the owner of a Magcargo or Magmortar living in Pacifidlog Town? Or Steelix in Saffron City? It's like you have to be very very cautious about which pokemon you capture, and you have to inform them of your possible future plans and give them a chance to leave.

Owning fish pokemon is never really addressed in the games or anime at all, since all the trainers with Huntail, Lumineon, Wailord, etc only appear briefly and don't ever leave the ocean/coast.

See, the Eon Flute in OR/AS pretty much confirms that when you deposit a Pokémon into the box, they don't just sink into the code of the cyber world. Lati@s show up even if they're boxed, which suggests something similar to the anime; someone watching over your Pokémon in a secure space where they have enough room to roam free. If we lived in-universe and I felt my Pokémon didn't match my habitat, I'd deposit them in the box so that they could still be mine, enjoy quality time with other Pokémon I own of that habitat, and be happy.

Or I'd build an aquarium for my fish Pokémon, a fire pit for my volcanic Pokémon and a sandbox for Steelix. Make them comfortable as possible in my home.

 

[Silverwynde]

to the point of him being outright condescending.

Well gosh, I would never have expected that from somebody who had been brainwashed as a kid and told for their entire life that they were a chosen one who was entirely right in their beliefs.

That and don't some teenagers believe that they know everything? I know I thought I did when I was younger.

As for the subject at hand: I treat my Pokemon well in-game so I can hardly be called cruel. Sure, I battle but I make sure mine don't faint and if they do, I take care of them immediately. Those who don't have "battle conducive Natures"--Timid, Quiet--can usually strut their stuff on a stage. Mine crew is pretty spoiled, to be honest.

 

[Life]

But even that isn't the main point that I am trying to make. In the Pokémon world, battles are how you earn recognition and credibility. N's plan was to befriend the Legendary dragon and defeat the Champion - both of which would have given him massive amounts of clout with the populace - and then to use that clout in order to convince everybody to release their Pokémon. Because if this guy has been chosen by an incredibly powerful dragon of legend and defeated the strongest Trainer in the region, then he must be no joke.

I feel that you're underestimating people here. If someone rapidly becomes the strongest trainer and has the power of a legendary dragon telling people to do something that they've disagreed with for a long period of time, they are not just going to rapidly follow them and change their beliefs. People question ideas and thoughts, and if what they've been taught all their life is being questioned than they're going to question back. The will of the mass is quite a thing to be reckoned with; people will not just blindly follow someone because they have a shiny position and cool friend.

Which gives him influence over the people; if this guy says "release your Pokémon, because battles hurt them" then a lot of people are going to listen.

It gives him status, not influence. The difference between the two is that no matter how much status a person has, people don't have to follow what they say because they don't have to believe the same thing as them. If a person has a lot of influence, people will follow because they believe that said person is entirely right in their beliefs, which only followers of Team Plasma would accept.

How many of them could even fight back against that?

Quite a few, I would imagine. The other champions would probably intervene and help out Unova if some crazy person claimed to be champion and was threatening everyone, and there are still very strong trainers in Unova who would probably try and rebel against N as well. It's not like people would just sit back with an "I don't care attitude." There have been plenty of revolutions and rebellions throughout history, and I can only see the same thing happening in this situation.

And then as public opinion turned more and more against battling and capturing Pokémon, more and more people would be pressured into releasing their Pokémon, just as Ghetsis said. And then there would be no more battling, and so N would have succeeded, and he only had to engage in something that he was morally opposed to for a comparatively short amount of time. The payoff of society bending to his will was well worth enduring a month or so of battling even though he hated it. I don't like getting shots, but I can't say that the few moments of pain isn't worth the vaccination.

The difference between what N was trying to do and getting a shot is that a shot is to save your life and may only hurt you for a few seconds, whereas what N was trying to do was rapidly change the thoughts of the people just so he could satisfy himself by knowing that he could become a champion who ruled by fear and terrorized the masses to believe what he thought was right. There's a big difference.

I realize what you were going for with that analogy, but seriously, there is no excuse for battling with Pokemon to try and stop people from battling with Pokemon. Change starts with yourself, and there are other ways to make the people listen to you without being a hypocrite.

to the point of him being outright condescending.

Well gosh, I would never have expected that from somebody who had been brainwashed as a kid and told for their entire life that they were a chosen one who was entirely right in their beliefs.

N grew up being taught certain beliefs, just like how many other children do in our society. But as we get older we simply have to accept that there are different views than our own and that we should respect them no matter how much we disagree. Sure, not everybody does and there are plenty of people who try and push their beliefs onto others, but there are people who don't as well.

Many children also are grown up with their parents constantly telling them that "they're the best" or that "they're special", but by the time they're N's age, the majority of them aren't arrogant citizens who believe that they're special and better than the rest. Just because you're told something doesn't mean it's true, which is something people are quite able of figuring out on their own.

 

[Osprey]

I feel that you're underestimating people here. If someone rapidly becomes the strongest trainer and has the power of a legendary dragon telling people to do something that they've disagreed with for a long period of time, they are not just going to rapidly follow them and change their beliefs. People question ideas and thoughts, and if what they've been taught all their life is being questioned than they're going to question back. The will of the mass is quite a thing to be reckoned with; people will not just blindly follow someone because they have a shiny position and cool friend.

You can influence the masses pretty rapidly if you've got power, position, and a very persuasive force at your back. You'd be surprised how the masses can be blindly led if they get riled up enough. It's happened before in real life... Nazi Germany, for an overused example. And that "cool friend" isn't just that; aside from being big and powerful, it's revered in Unova as a GOD. A god that will only side with whoever it deems worthy. Stuff of tradition and myth tends to carry some weight, and while it may not cause everyone to drop everything and obey, it's something that certainly gives him credibility. Added with a well-known and respected title... really, it serves as a way to get his message out as quickly as possible.

Many children also are grown up with their parents constantly telling them that "they're the best" or that "they're special", but by the time they're N's age, the majority of them aren't arrogant citizens who believe that they're special and better than the rest. Just because you're told something doesn't mean it's true, which is something people are quite able of figuring out on their own.

Ever gone into N's room in the castle? Aside from the very off-putting vibe I've gotten from that place, I could see this: N did not have a very normal childhood. Far less normal than I had thought before. Sure, MOST kids would've probably outgrown the "I'm special and right" feeling, but it's very obvious that N did not grow up like most kids and probably hasn't matured in the same ways.

His room looks like a little kid's playroom; only recently has he actually gone out and seen the world through his own eyes. He's never been exposed to any other values besides what he'd been taught his whole life, so how could've he thought of other ideals when they just didn't exist in his sheltered world? Moreover, his entire life was shaped around becoming the perfect hero-pawn for Ghetsis, so the idea that he was "special and righteous" likely wasn't just told to him; it was hammered into his way of thinking.

 

[Life]

You can influence the masses pretty rapidly if you've got power, position, and a very persuasive force at your back. You'd be surprised how the masses can be blindly led if they get riled up enough. It's happened before in real life... Nazi Germany, for an overused example. And that "cool friend" isn't just that; aside from being big and powerful, it's revered in Unova as a GOD. A god that will only side with whoever it deems worthy. Stuff of tradition and myth tends to carry some weight, and while it may not cause everyone to drop everything and obey, it's something that certainly gives him credibility. Added with a well-known and respected title... really, it serves as a way to get his message out as quickly as possible.

I suppose I was overestimating a bit, huh? ((I'll admit I was in a particularly positive mood when I posted that. )) Still, I disagree that everyone would just drop what they're doing and follow him. I'm sure there'd be a good amount, but not enough to get what he wanted, I'd guess. There would eventually be some sort of rebellion or turnaround, whether it be sooner or later.

Also, is Zekrom really revered as a God? I wasn't aware of that. I only thought it was something of legendary status. Guess you learn something new everyday~

Ever gone into N's room in the castle? Aside from the very off-putting vibe I've gotten from that place, I could see this: N did not have a very normal childhood. Far less normal than I had thought before. Sure, MOST kids would've probably outgrown the "I'm special and right" feeling, but it's very obvious that N did not grow up like most kids and probably hasn't matured in the same ways.

His room looks like a little kid's playroom; only recently has he actually gone out and seen the world through his own eyes. He's never been exposed to any other values besides what he'd been taught his whole life, so how could've he thought of other ideals when they just didn't exist in his sheltered world? Moreover, his entire life was shaped around becoming the perfect hero-pawn for Ghetsis, so the idea that he was "special and righteous" likely wasn't just told to him; it was hammered into his way of thinking.

You don't necessarily have to be exposed to values to think of them. There are many things I've thought about and later heard they were legit ideologies a few months later. ((Not everyone is me, I understand, but just throwing an example out there. )) Even if he stayed in one room most of his life, that gives him a lot of time to think about the world around him and come up with his own ideas, even if he had certain ones hammered into his head.

There are also people who grew up similarly to N, (albeit in a different situation than N) but had certain ideas hammered in to their head, and aren't stuck on one view. I suppose what I'm trying to say here is pretty circular, as N is just one of those rare kids who is truly not like the rest, but that incredibly unlikely scenario of a person actually being like that bothers me, to be honest. So yeah; I disagree with him having an excuse about treating others like dirt, but understand he's had a complicated past.

 

[Almonds]

I suppose I was overestimating a bit, huh? ((I'll admit I was in a particularly positive mood when I posted that. )) Still, I disagree that everyone would just drop what they're doing and follow him. I'm sure there'd be a good amount, but not enough to get what he wanted, I'd guess. There would eventually be some sort of rebellion or turnaround, whether it be sooner or later.

Also, is Zekrom really revered as a God? I wasn't aware of that. I only thought it was something of legendary status. Guess you learn something new everyday~

Ever gone into N's room in the castle? Aside from the very off-putting vibe I've gotten from that place, I could see this: N did not have a very normal childhood. Far less normal than I had thought before. Sure, MOST kids would've probably outgrown the "I'm special and right" feeling, but it's very obvious that N did not grow up like most kids and probably hasn't matured in the same ways.

His room looks like a little kid's playroom; only recently has he actually gone out and seen the world through his own eyes. He's never been exposed to any other values besides what he'd been taught his whole life, so how could've he thought of other ideals when they just didn't exist in his sheltered world? Moreover, his entire life was shaped around becoming the perfect hero-pawn for Ghetsis, so the idea that he was "special and righteous" likely wasn't just told to him; it was hammered into his way of thinking.

You don't necessarily have to be exposed to values to think of them. There are many things I've thought about and later heard they were legit ideologies a few months later. ((Not everyone is me, I understand, but just throwing an example out there. )) Even if he stayed in one room most of his life, that gives him a lot of time to think about the world around him and come up with his own ideas, even if he had certain ones hammered into his head.

There are also people who grew up similarly to N, (albeit in a different situation than N) but had certain ideas hammered in to their head, and aren't stuck on one view. I suppose what I'm trying to say here is pretty circular, as N is just one of those rare kids who is truly not like the rest, but that incredibly unlikely scenario of a person actually being like that bothers me, to be honest. So yeah; I disagree with him having an excuse about treating others like dirt, but understand he's had a complicated past.

Ghetsis locked him up in that room and only showed him injured, hurt pokemon that were abused for life. Iirc, N has never set foot outside that castle and all he knows is what Ghetsis taught him. He was never shown the world. Too much brainwashing, and the only other people around him were his sitters the goddesses and the grunts who worship him. I doubt the rest of the sages were allowed to say anything to N since Team Plasma operated under Ghetsis' orders. N's room never had any books, no tv, no windows, and the castle was underground until N called it at the Pokemon League. The only real human interaction N had was with Ghetsis, who clearly isn't the best parent in the world. That was downright child abuse.