Non-Existent Progress

P

PokeDot517

New Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2013
Messages
61
Reaction score
6
So I recently just watched the Serena vs the Kalos Queen master class episode and I won't spoil it but...


Does it bother you that there is no progress made throughout the Pokémon anime? It's like the same damn thing every series. I know it bothers me and I sometimes want to stop watching the show because like...what's the point? Now I already know that the show isn't targeted towards long time viewers like me and possibly you and made for people who eventually grow tired and leave the show and a new, fresh audience of people come in and the cycle repeats over and over but...seriously man. I love the show. Its like an 7.5 or 8 out of 10 but you'd think the writers after nearly twenty years they would shake up the painfully predictable, rinse and repeat formula. Maybe this isn't their choice and higher level people tell them to keep writing the same stuff but it's quite annoying to me and others I see rant about it on this forum.

I guess it's more about the journey then the destination and if you want to see REAL progress and actually see people accomplishing their goals...play the games.

Iris was just Drayden's pupil or gym leader and then just two years later she's the champion of Unova...

:\
 
Last edited:
1. That's the pokemon series in generell. Repetive as hell.

2. We never see Iris accomplishing her goal. She was champion suddenly without any relevant plotlines.
 
Well, just because the characters don't reach their goals in the show doesn't mean that the progress is non-existent. Take Serena for example. While I do really dislike, if not flat out hate, Showcases, her character has made progress towards her goal and has gotten pretty solid character development as a result of becoming a Performer. May and Dawn also both made significant progress towards their goals and had character development during their runs. Just because they don't become Top Coordinator, Kalos Queen or a Pokemon Master in Ash's case doesn't mean that the entire journey was a waste of time or that they didn't make any "real" progress towards their goals.

I can understand why people have more of a problem with this, especially when we generally know how each series will end with Ash and his friends going on their separate ways to focus on their own goals, but it doesn't really bother me too much. The show is more about the journey than the destination. That has pretty much been the case since day one. Plus, the progress the characters do make during the course of the series doesn't make the show a waste of time or make me question what was the point of it all. While some series handle this better than others, they usually do have some sense of progression for the characters or that something significant was accomplished by Ash traveling with his friends on that particular journey. The entertainment value also plays a factor for me.

While trying to shake things up wouldn't be a bad idea, at least to a certain point, I can see why they don't shake up the formula too much. The anime is pretty successful as it is and trying to change something that doesn't really need to change, for the series' success at least, might cause more problems. As the saying goes, if it isn't broke, don't fix it. Besides all that, the franchise in general is pretty repetitive and formulaic. Granted, the video games generally take more chances and risks than the anime normally does, but both would be considered formulaic at the end of the day.

I also wouldn't consider video game Iris as an example of characters in the games actually making progress. We do get a flashback explaining how and why Iris became the Champion, but we don't actually see her make progress towards that goal. It just kind of happens and she barely had any importance in B2/W2 besides being the Champion anyway.
 
What? Ash for example has ranked in the top 16/8/4 best trainers of each region, between thousand of trainers, won the battle frontier, he has made progress, Brock is fulfilling his dream of becoming a doctor, Misty, Cilan, Clemont are gym leaders, etc, the pokéworld in the anime is 10x more realistic than the games where you go beating the E4, the champion and then catch a ton of legendaries...
 
Last edited:
No, that sort of thing doesn't bother me at all, whether it's in Pokemon or anything else.
Bart Simpson will always be 10, the Daleks will never be defeated, Wile E. Coyote isn't going to change his preferred meal choice, etc. etc. etc.
 
PokeDot517 said:
I guess it's more about the journey then the destination and if you want to see REAL progress and actually see people accomplishing their goals...play the games.
Click to expand...
This is absolutely my stance.
Many of us have been watching the anime for >15 years - how many of us have reached our 'Pokemon Master' real world equivalent dream IRL yet? Me neither.
 
The problem isn't just that Ash, for example, doesn't win whichever tournament he ends up fighting in. It's also that when he gets to the next region, he starts acting like a rookie again, meaning all that "progress" has been negated. BW was really bad about this.
 
Realistically speaking, when I go to a new place, I don't "dump away" my old things immediately and start anew. I utilize my existing properties and skills in order to advance further. Also, if there are people in my contact list doing the job of similar kind, I'll contact them and ask for help & advice. Also, my LinkedIn profile will be updated with new info, but that doesn't mean my old personal history will be gone, but just that they went to the bottom of my list.

This anime is by no mean "realistic".
 
Ok BW I get, but I don't agree that he went rookie at the beginning of any other saga, that's a total fallacy. I can understand why he might be less confident at those points however, as he's come to a brand new place, new culture, unfamiliar problems with only Pikachu by his side.

I agree with Crystal regarding contacts, but that's more of a continuity issue as far as I'm concerned than a progression one.
 
Yeah, aside from BW, Ash really doesn't act like a rookie at the beginning of a new series. He starts off with a fresh team and that can make the battles more challenging than if he was using his more experienced Pokemon, but he doesn't go back to square one exactly. The first three series in particular show a steady progression of his skills as a trainer and XY showed right from the start that Ash was more competent too.
 
I've more or less become usd to the idea Ash is stuck on a treadmill due to the series' nature, though that's honestly a major part of the reason I only watch it casually.

ii kanji said:
This is absolutely my stance.
Many of us have been watching the anime for >15 years - how many of us have reached our 'Pokemon Master' real world equivalent dream IRL yet? Me neither.
Click to expand...
I've noticed this before, too. I think people are conditioned to see fictional characters accomplish their goals within a couple of years, so Ash seems ludicrously incompetent from that lens (doesn't help people like to say the Orange Islands don't count because they aren't in the games). Plus, the games themselves are really easy so these people have become champion many times in the past. I sometimes see it in other places where people clear historical strategy games and think it means that the historical figures who couldn't win theese wars were inept.

Hidden Mew said:
Yeah, aside from BW, Ash really doesn't act like a rookie at the beginning of a new series. He starts off with a fresh team and that can make the battles more challenging than if he was using his more experienced Pokemon, but he doesn't go back to square one exactly. The first three series in particular show a steady progression of his skills as a trainer and XY showed right from the start that Ash was more competent too.
Click to expand...
I think alot of it comes down to the same sort of video-game logic as the "still not champion" complaints; a Pokemon that can knock out even a single Pokémon used by an eighth Gym leader isn't struggling against a first badge Gym Leader. Some people still have trouble with the idea that the anime doesn't use levels anymore, following a somewhat more realistic case of some members of a certain species being stronger than others but you won't get a Caterpie so high level it's actually physically more powerfu than a Machamp.
 
Daren said:
I think alot of it comes down to the same sort of video-game logic as the "still not champion" complaints; a Pokemon that can knock out even a single Pokémon used by an eighth Gym leader isn't struggling against a first badge Gym Leader. Some people still have trouble with the idea that the anime doesn't use levels anymore, following a somewhat more realistic case of some members of a certain species being stronger than others but you won't get a Caterpie so high level it's actually physically more powerfu than a Machamp.
Click to expand...

I don't think that the show ever really used levels. They were mentioned before, but not really used to indicate a Pokemon's level by numbers. Still, I can see that being an issue given that many people complain about how Pikachu should be at level 100 by now.
 
In terms of story-writing POV, a story doesn't have to end at the highest development point of the protagonist, it can end at any point, even at the lowest (Yeah I know, it is super anticlimax if done, but nonetheless), as long as the closure is logically constructed and plausible.

Up to this point, I am really not much bother by the lack of progression of the Pokemon anime. What bother me the most, is rather the lack of ending of it. When will the story of Ash Ketchum be done? When can he be lay off forever from the screen? Doesn't matter how it is done, I just want it done.

BTW, in the past, I had for once thought of such anime ending where it will keep the losing streak of Ash Ketchum, yet shall give a nice conclusion to his journey. Actually, this is much more simpler than one think it may be, and in fact it can be done at any Pokemon League.
Ash made it to the Pokemon League, meeting a trainer where everyone claimed him to be the "Ultimate Pokemon Master". Ash believed by defeating him he shall become the next Pokemon Master. So in one of the Pokemon League match, the two battles, obviously Ash loses. Then come to this guy and ask about his secret to obtain this title. The guy replied there is no secret at all, "Pokemon Master" is not a position, nor a title given by any official identity, it is simply how every other deemed him to be.
What is "Pokemon Master"? Is it the strongest trainer in the world? Is it the trainer that had meet every single pokemon on this planet? Is it the trainer that catches every single species of pokemon and completed the pokedex? Is it the champion of Pokemon League? May be, but not exactly. According to the understanding of the guy, Pokemon Master is a trainer that understand everything about pokemons, form a deep bond between his pokemon where they confront difficulty side by side, showing concerns and believes towards each other, and moreover, viewing each other equally on the same standing ground. Therefore, in fact everyone have the potential to become a Pokemon Master.
Received the reply from the guy, and looking at Pikachu on his shoulder, Ash cast a grin, leaving the league happily, going back to Pallet Town.
Changing the scene, where it shows the scene Ash playing with all his Oaked pokemon in Prof.Oak's Lab. He is happy, every pokemons are happy, concluding the story of Ash Ketchum of aiming to be Pokemon Master.

"Pokemon Master" is not something so far-fetched as he originally claimed to be. In fact, he had already became one before he had even realized.
I personally think this is the most appropriate ending for a continuous battle loser, yet having an inner strength. At least IMO, this ending will not make Ash felt OOC. (Winning a league IMO is something rather OOC)
 
I would be happy with that ^ ending, especially as it would address the illusion that is this Pokemon Master quest (even if I disagree with some of the rationale - Satoshi is not "a continuous battle loser"!!) However, I also don't see any need for the show to end any time soon... I've had the anime for so long now, why can't I have it for a few years more?!
 
Ash's experiences on his journeys would be far more fulfilling than finishing a few places higher in the leagues would ever be. There's obviously plenty of ways they could do both, but it's not a huge negative for me at this point.

As for the game comparison - yeah, in the games you always win, because they are no where near the same theoretical challenge. If the Pokemon League in the games was the anime one, it might actually be somewhat difficult to beat it - they have hundreds of trainers who all are strong enough to have 8 badges, with each battle being a knockout. Plus, the league is presumably a once a year event, so a huge amount of time to fill in between attempts - with every chance all your competitors are stronger as well, and that's before you have what would presumably be a one shot chance to beat all of the elite four and champion?

If Ash could just start off at the Elite Four, and keep re-challenging until he won, he'd have won already.
 
Here's the thing: the Pocket Monsters TV Show is made to advertise the rest of the franchise, meaning they're not as interested in telling a story so much as getting kids interested and excited about the video games, toys, and trading cards. What's more, the games' stories don't really have what it takes to provide episode idea for week after week after week (after week) for 3-4 years. Also, it mainly plays like an old school cartoon show whose main purpose is to entertain children over telling a story.

I don't mind, really. Just light fluff aimed at kids (and older folks with broad tastes). It's not like oh so many Shonen shows (and Game of Thrones) that get you hooked and then take forever to really do anything.
 
Last edited:
I'm just bothered by the fact that the writers would prevent Ash from ever winning a major league. He does well, they write in a Mary Sue/Gary Stu with Legendary Pokémon to curb-stomp him from a deserved win. They should know that they must allow Ash to win at least ''one'' league, especially within our lifetimes; winning a league doesn't mean his adventures are over.
 
I'd say that winning the Kanto Battle Frontier was an even bigger accomplishment since it was only available to certain qualified trainers and the prize of becoming a new Frontier Brain is a lot more impressive than winning a regional league. The Orange Island League also counts given that it was a tournament, somewhat close to what the games involve with battling four trainers in order to battle the Champion, even though they were Gym Leaders instead of the Elite 4 and it did show progress from how he was in the Indigo League.

To be fair, while I do think that winning both of these are a sign of progress for Ash, they did happen a long time ago. Even the Battle Frontier victory is nearly ten years ago at this point, so I can see why fans wouldn't bring those accomplishments up too much. Even so, they still count as major accomplishments and progress for Ash.
 
Please note: The thread is from 10 years ago.
Please take the age of this thread into consideration in writing your reply. Depending on what exactly you wanted to say, you may want to consider if it would be better to post a new thread instead.
Back
Top Bottom