Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

[Necrozma]

This question sparked my interest upon hearing how some people were starting to call Iris a Mary Sue simply due the fact she owns such a powerful Pokémon early on.

But lets look into the BW trio more to see which character has least flaws.

Is it Ash, Iris or Cilan?

--

I feel that Ash is the character with most flaws while Cilan is the one with the least flaws, or should I say, none flaws at all. What do you guys think?

 

[MarshiyanMisutaa]

It's Iris. And no, she isn't a Mary Sue. Beating 100 pokemon isn't something unfeasible for a trainer.

 

[Kaitou Kid]

Yeah, Iris is such a Mary-Sue because she and Excadrill one-shotted a bunch of no name fodder characters when they were younger. God forbid she actually beat Drayden, then her Mary-Sue levels would shoot through the roof! Damn her for beating up a bunch of never to be seen again background characters just for plot purposes!

Hmm thinking about it, I'd say Cilan. Iris is definitely way more flawed than he is and Ash is Ash so....

 

[Karamazov]

I think that Iris is presented with the most flaws (apparent insecurities, Pokemon that don't listen to her...) to make her look weak, and develop over time.

Cilan has the least flaws. I can only recall his flaws being his stubborn attitude during BW014, and having ugly hair. Correct me if I'm wrong, I just don't recall any other flaws.

 

[Necrozma]

Maybe because he doesn't have any?

 

[Grave-E]

It's gotta be Dent who has the most flaws. There's just too many to count.

- Green hair. Nobody likes a guy who can't abide by the rules.

- Green hair that looks like grass. In a world where you can't take 2 steps without stepping into a Deerling, that ain't good.

- He's a slob. Guy can't even change out of his work clothes. After originally working in presumably hot kitchen no less. Eurgh!

- He's obsessed with food. And it‘s gone straight to his hips.

- Seems to have anger management issues and an irrational hatred of leaves.

- He’s an attention seeker. All the sparkles and flamboyant poses are hard to ignore, and thus evidence of his underlying insecurities.

- Has a poor grasp of the concept of time. ‘It’s detective time’? Um, no Dent. It was 11:23 am.

- His name is 'Dent'. So presumably, he has Dental Flaws.

 

[JennaJayfeather]

I'm just going to say this:

Spoiler

;_; Not here too. I CAME HERE TO GET AWAY FROM THIS DISCUSSION!!!!!!

Ok that's it. I'm leaving before I get annoyed by something (so far nothing has...I'm actually laughing at the posts but yeah, these kinds of discussions ALWAYS bother me and that's due to ANOTHER FORUM that's not a Pokemon one.)

 

[Necrozma]

I'm just being realistic. Next time people call Iris a Mary Sue or a flawless character, they should really look more into Cilan.

 

[AshK]

Quick quesiton: what is a Mary Sue?

The least flawed out of the three has to be Cilan because he is the reasonable one in the group and he only acts weird when his food gets destroyed or some of his cooking tools gets stolen .

Ash is the most flawed imo. I know I know, I am an anti B/W Ash type of guy you can quote me on that. But he was a perfect character (okay maybe overexagerated but a major improvement from first 5 seasons) for 8 years (AG and D/p, imo) and developed so well from his earlier days, and they noticeably and obviously took that away in favour of a "fresh start" whatever that's supposed to mean. But enough of my ranting, Ash really doesn't have THAT many flaws but compared to Cilan and Iris there are probably a few more. Iris is not perfect, but only her Ash bashing and village superstitions are a problem to me, thats it.

 

[Necrozma]

I think Mary Sue would be a character who has no problems, weaknesses however and easily overcomes any obstacle.

 

[JennaJayfeather]

I'm just being realistic. Next time people call Iris a Mary Sue or a flawless character, they should really look more into Cilan.

T_T but I don't like calling people Dento a Gary Stu. It brings back bad memories of some of my other lovable characters...like Leafpool (Warrior Cats)...Yellow (PokeSpe)..Ruby (PokeSpe)...

But I do get what you're saying. I normally don't mess with Iris threads, she's one of my favorites but I just don't like debating. I'm just drawn to Dento threads...and honestly the ones on Serebii are giving me nightmares D= It's ALMOST as bad as the time when I found out he was/is/almost part of the Shadow Triad in Pokemon Special!! I COULDN'T LOOK AT HIM THE SAME WAY!! It was terrible ;_;

I like Iris and stuff, but I don't take things to heart with her character. When people call out Dento on something it bugs me...

(Ok now I'm leaving for real...maybe not XD I thought I died in the Detective thread anyways..I must be a ghost =o)

 

[Necrozma]

Dento is awesome, but that's about it. People don't need him to have issues to like and support his character which is kinda sad when you look at Iris, since she's also funny and interesting as well. :/

 

[Afrojisiac-19]

Dento is the one with the least flaws...He's been presented as someone with few, if ANY flaws at all...Despite his charms, it doesn't make him very relatable as a character, no internal conflict, no obstacles to overcome, no serious problems to deal with that will hinder his growth...That's why I prefer Iris...she's relatable, and has issues that need to be dealt with...If it's anyone who is a Mary Sue, Dento fits that description very well.

 

[Shinneth]

Technically, one can also be considered a Mary Sue/Gary Stu if they have flaws, but are rarely - if ever - acknowledged by the canon cast. I know of at least one other character that fits this mold to a tee; riddled with flaws, but when she nearly committed global genocide because some guy wouldn't return her feelings (this is the alleged main heroine, mind you), she suffered practically no consequences afterward. Maybe a slap on the wrist or something. That there, I believe, constitutes as some form of a Mary Sue.

Thankfully, Iris isn't an offender on a global scale, but I think she generally has the same thing going on with her: she has a variety of flaws, most of which are painfully obvious... and yet Iris pretty much gets away with her behavior. Even her most recent episode, aside from her needless multiple past victories, they made out the whole thing to be more Excadrill's fault than Iris'... and they completely ignore the fact that Iris, despite her vows, hasn't been seen doing anything to get through to Excadrill until that episode. This was a perfect opportunity for Iris to acknowledge her flaws, but instead it was all shoved on Excadrill and a misunderstanding and blah blah blah.

Point is, calling Iris a Mary Sue these days isn't entirely unfounded.

Anyway, Ash has come a long way and a lot of his errors are the cause of bad writing anyway, so I'd put him in the middle. Cilan is easily the least-flawed, but then again he's a mentor figure who I assume Ash is to look up to, so his archetype doesn't benefit from being flawed all to hell. Given that Cilan has a good amount of focus coming up, I'm sure some sort of flaw will make its presence known, but overall Cilan's lack of flaws don't exactly bother me.

 

[Necrozma]

Because characters need issues and problems to overcome so we can fully support and root for them throughout their development and storyline.

Yes, Cilan is funny and interesting. Also yes, he is getting boring. I do sincerely hope we see him having problems with something because so far his life has been amazing. A-rank Sommelier? Great at fishing and solving mysteries? Always has an upper hand at battles? I know he's a mentor, but give me something!

 

[Sweet Veil]

It irritated me a bit seeing everyone complain about Iris being flawless.

Everyone is so quick to complain about Iris being "flawless" and calling her a Mary Sue and she sucks cause she's got a powerful Pokemon like Doryuuzu. But, what about Dento? He's got strong Pokemon already, He destroyed his rival, Cabernet with ease, He's a near perfect Sommelier, His goal of being a Sommelier is pretty much not being explored at all, He's a detective, he's a good battler, a Fishermen, he never fails, he sparkles out of joy. He's the Mary-Sue of the cast if anyone is, but that doesn't matter does it? Because, he's looked upon as awesome and a great character regardless.

People are ok with Dento being flawless and entertaining, but everyone's quick to call Iris a Mary-Sue.

 

[Hellion]

Quick quesiton: what is a Mary Sue?

This can help you shed some light on the phenomenon, but overall a Mary Sue isn't a combinations of traits (i.e. flawlessness, being super powerful, etc.) but more how those traits are treated by the author and the characters in the story, how many there are, if they're justified within the story, etc. When they accumulate so much that they stop the story dead in its tracks, and prohibit developement, then you can say you have a Mary Sue became the process towards saying if a character is or isn't a Mary Sue needs to be holistic.

Now, from what we have seen so far, not one of the three main cast members can be considered Mary Sue yet, though if the writers continue to treat Iris the way they have been so far, she has the possiblity of becoming a Canon sue.

First of all, the lack of flaws. Now, both Iris and Dento have been shown to have flaws, but once again, how are those flaws treated by the writers? How do they relate to the story? In Dento's case, his flaw is arrogance, overconfidence and how he's very quick to judge other people. Now, on the two occasions that happened, he was either "punished" for it (losing to Ash in the gym battle) or was called out on it (Both Satoshi and Iris reacted negatively when Dento bet with Cabernet that should he lose, Ash would release all his pokémon). In short, they were treated as flaws. Whereas in Iris's case, she's shown to be very hypocritical and hypercritical, yet, it's not treated as a flaw, not shown to affect anybody's opinion of her and eveyone still wants to be her friend. Same for Doryuuzu, in her battle against Shaga, she wasn't able to read Doryuuzu's emotion correctly, yet Shaga and the village elder, far from being critical of Iris, they looked intrigued and impressed. The initial problem with Doryuuzu was also treated as something internal to Doryuuzu, not something brought on by a mistake that Iris made. So, Iris wasn't shown to be doing anything wrong in that situation, beared no resposibility in the problem, effectively stunting her developpement.

Same thing for being super powerful. On its own, it's a trait, nothing more, neither good nor bad. It all depends on how it's being treated in the story by the writers, whether or not it's justified within the universe. Dento beating Cabernet is justified in that he's studied longer than she has to be a sommelier, he's passed more exams (that are required to achieve ranks), he's been a trainer longer, etc. There's nothing that proves he's a sensational trainer, having lost to Ash and a wild Pendra, and seen struggling against the wild hitomoshi. Whereas with Iris, before most trainer even begin training pokémon, she had 99 OHKO wins against trainer who had been more experienced than her, had been training for a longer time, she was shown to beat evolved pokémon with her unevolved Mogurew. Cilan's abilities are shown to be within the range of the universe, ordinary if you will, while Iris's were shown to be extraordinary, uncommon, something that made her super special...

tl;dr any Mary Sue trait is just that, a character trait. It's how that trait is being treated in relation to other traits, how justified it is by elements of the story and whether or not they stop the story dead in its tracks. To answer the post, I'd say Ash is the most flawed, while Iris is the least flawed, not because the flaws aren't there, but because they aren't treated as such by the writers and aren't an hindrance, an obstacle for her.

 

[Masurao]

Obviously Ash is the most flawed, and Dento is the least flawed IMO. I also think calling Iris "super powerful" is a bit of an exaggeration. I don't see her as any better than Ash or Dento.

However, I have more problems with the way her Excadrill was protrayed rather than anything else. It hasn't trained any longer than any other notable trainer on this show. Yet, it was able to coast along getting 99 OHKO's without any struggle seen. It doesn't make me feel attached to the character at all. Even in the recent episode, when it came out of it's Pokeball it was overdone. We know it's strong, don't need to rub it in our faces.

Pretty much, Excadrill is portrayed as being far to powerful, for this early in the series. It's overpoweredness makes it a unrelatable Pokemon IMO even with it's backstory.

 

[Sweet Veil]

[First of all, the lack of flaws. Now, both Iris and Dento have been shown to have flaws, but once again, how are those flaws treated by the writers? How do they relate to the story? In Dento's case, his flaw is arrogance, overconfidence and how he's very quick to judge other people. Now, on the two occasions that happened, he was either "punished" for it (losing to Ash in the gym battle) or was called out on it (Both Satoshi and Iris reacted negatively when Dento bet with Cabernet that should he lose, Ash would release all his pokémon). In short, they were treated as flaws. Whereas in Iris's case, she's shown to be very hypocritical and hypercritical, yet, it's not treated as a flaw, not shown to affect anybody's opinion of her and eveyone still wants to be her friend. Same for Doryuuzu, in her battle against Shaga, she wasn't able to read Doryuuzu's emotion correctly, yet Shaga and the village elder, far from being critical of Iris, they looked intrigued and impressed. The initial problem with Doryuuzu was also treated as something internal to Doryuuzu, not something brought on by a mistake that Iris made. So, Iris wasn't shown to be doing anything wrong in that situation, beared no resposibility in the problem, effectively stunting her developpement.

Her development for that episode is that she apologized to Doryuuzu and learned and will try to read her Pokemon's emotions more. Her mistake was that she didn't listen to her Pokemon who said that he couldn't win, and she still pressured him to continue which caused Doryuuzu to go in shock. Obaba and the Dragon Master were impressed because of Iris's training of Doryuuzu to be so strong, and probably thought she had potential. Iris's catchphrase affected Satoshi in episode 3 were he got angry and called her a kid too. Same for Rangurei who destroyed Kibago, Iris showed some sadness and regret for using Kibago against Tsunbear. If your counting quick to judge others for Dento, I guess you count that for Iris too. Where has Dento shown overconfidence in the same aspect that it was different from Iris's overconfidence against Rangurei? Dento even pointed out Iris being a bit too pushy of Doryuuzu, the same way Satoshi and Iris scolded him. So I really don't see your point.

Dento beating Cabernet is justified in that he's studied longer than she has to be a sommelier, he's passed more exams (that are required to achieve ranks), he's been a trainer longer, etc. There's nothing that proves he's a sensational trainer, having lost to Ash and a wild Pendra, and seen struggling against the wild hitomoshi. Whereas with Iris, before most trainer even begin training pokémon, she had 99 OHKO wins against trainer who had been more experienced than her, had been training for a longer time, she was shown to beat evolved pokémon with her unevolved Mogurew. Cilan's abilities are shown to be within the range of the universe, ordinary if you will, while Iris's were shown to be extraordinary, uncommon, something that made her super special...

As far as we're concerned Iris has been training Doryuuzu harder and longer then Satoshi has Pikachu. There's nothing that proves Iris is invincible having lost to Rangurei's Tsunbear, Dragon Master's Ononokus, Still struggling against Rangurei in the rematch, and her Kibago being weak and Emonga disobeying. There's no proof that Iris beat 99 trainers in a row, as you can see she took out more Wild Pokemon then trainers. There's no proof that every trainer she beat was more experienced or less experienced. But, it still doesn't matter anyway, because Doryuuzu has been proven to not be an invincible God Pokemon, and those 99 opponents were just nothing but disposable plot devices to move the story. Don't really see your evolved point theory. I beat Pokemon all the time in the games with unevolved Pokemon. Mijumaru and Pokabu beat Aloe's Pokemon who were both evolved. Pikachu beat Hahakomori who was evolved. Ishizumai beat Futachimaru was evolved. About that theory, again, what makes you think her Kibago is stronger then every other Kibago again? Her Doryuuzu was brought down twice in a battle against Tsunbear. Your comparing Iris beating a bunch of isolated no neck wild Pokemon and trainers to things like she's a Queen.

Dento has rarely shown any true flaws. And no, I'm not counting the whole, "Battle against Satoshi at the Sanyou Gym" because that was barely anything to mention. Because the same thing was going to happen to Iris anyway if not for Dento's intervening.

 

[Kyuuketsuki]

As trainers, Iris seems to be the most flawed. And wasn't there another character who beat 100 trainers?