Pearl -> Barry

[Maxim Posthumus]

For the reasons I specified dozens of times already in the talk page, for instance (everyone acquaintanced with the issue will know what I'm talking about), I think that the page "Pearl (game)" should be moved to "Barry (game)".

The argument "we were calling him Pearl for too long", "it's too late for the move" is moot already. Today the major page of "Pokemon Special" was moved to "Pokemon Adventures", so were all related pages. Millions of links were corrected. Same should be done for Barry. We can't call him by a fanmade name anymore.

Just move it.

 

[Transfinite]

I didn't know Pearl was a fanmade name. And here I thought it was the name of one of the games. Gee, silly me.

 

[Maverick Nate]

I didn't know Pearl was a fanmade name. And here I thought it was the name of one of the games. Gee, silly me.

I'm hoping this is sarcasm.

 

[Transfinite]

Of course it's sarcasm. I've been playing Pokemon since Blue came out, give me some credit here

 

[TTEchidna]

While I may be on the fence right now about moving it to the name, you've got a related "move it move it" point about Gold and Silver.

As far as we know right now, his name is still Gold. Hibiki/Kotone are the names chosen because of the NPC nature of them. I'd bet that if we went into the game data, we'd find their names as either Gold and Soul... or as Gold and (dun dun) Kris. Likewise, the rival would be named... maybe Silver, maybe Kamon, but judging by Blue and Pearl's defaults in their respective games, it'd be something crazy.

Anyway, I'm not in favor of moving Gold ever, even when the Hibiki and Kotone names are translated. Why? Because Red's not Ash and Blue's not Gary, even in HGSS. And we're not moving those either.

 

[Luna Tiger]

I personally think the default name of the alpha game when one is not given to a character initially would be the "canon" name of a rival (with the exception of GSC!Silver, since that didn't work), which even trumps the "top name of the alpha game name list", which is why Gold ain't Hiro, or something).

But then you run into the issue of this being the only current example of a case, out of four rivals. Wally's name is permanent, Green/Blue's name is grafted by his GSC appearance, and Kamon didn't have a default name of any sort in GSC (and only in HG was his name defaulted as Silver).

If you encompass the entire 4th gen though, to settle the case, the DPPt rival really is Pearl, because in Diamond, that's his default name, and in Gold, the rival's name is Silver.

Barry is a relative name for outside media to adopt, just like Ash and Gary. His case is not like Brendan/Lucas/May/Dawn/Kotone where they were known by some other name (such as Gold and Kris prior).

It's Pearl. And not because it's used in two games, and only one 50% of the time. It's because Diamond is the alpha game, like Red/Gold/Ruby, and it's literally Pearl by default.

How do you argue around that?

 

[jake_loves_pokemon]

All this time I've been calling him Jun. Boy, was I off.

 

[TTEchidna]

Giovanni's son is Silver by default in Gold and Crystal.

 

[Zesty Cactus]

Anyway, I'm not in favor of moving Gold ever, even when the Hibiki and Kotone names are translated. Why? Because Red's not Ash and Blue's not Gary, even in HGSS. And we're not moving those either.

But Red's name wasn't changed to Ash in FRLG.

I can't decide whether I'd like "Gold" to be moved or not. I'm not too fussy, although if he's going to be moved, definitely wait for English names... there is NO point to moving everything to "Hibiki" and then changing it again in the spring.

I do support moving "Pearl" to "Barry", though.

 

[TTEchidna]

Nor was it changed in HGSS. Which is why I think that Hibiki/Kotone were just named as such to fit in with Brendan/May and Lucas/Dawn. And considering all the useless shit you get from them, they had to have someone to give it.

 

[Zesty Cactus]

Nor was it changed in HGSS. Which is why I think that Hibiki/Kotone were just named as such to fit in with Brendan/May and Lucas/Dawn. And considering all the useless shit you get from them, they had to have someone to give it.

Wait, wouldn't that still make the translated "Hibiki" name the preferred one? Dawn/Lucas/Brendan/May's "official" names are the names they recieve when they're the "rival" and not the player character. I don't think the "Dawn" etc names are even included in the defaults for the player characters.

Btw, what if Gold isn't included in the default names in English HGSS? Then what? Is he called "Gold" or one of the new names? (is ゴールド Gold even a default in the Japanese version?)

 

[Rellik]

IMO, it should be changed to Cedric, not Barry. We have to remember that there's already a precedent for this kind of situation. The Heroine from FR/LG doesn't have an official name, so the wiki lists her as Leaf, because that's what she's named in the games internal data. Like Leaf, the DPPt Rival doesn't have an official name either, so it only makes sense that his name be determined using the same method. From what I gather on the character's Talk Page, that makes his name Cedric.

How do you argue around that?

You argue around it by pointing out that they stopped using Version titles as character names in the games after GenII, and that all of the character since GenIII (with the exception of the nameable characters from FR/LG) have had real people names. If he's going to be named anything, it most definitely shouldn't be a name that uses a pretty much defunct naming system as it's basis.

 

[TTEchidna]

FRLG used the Gen I/II naming system, as it was a Gen I remake. Thus the Gen II remakes mean that Gold is staying Gold, and Silver is staying Silver. Unless you wanna rename Blue to whatever stupid name they had for him stored in FRLG which was probably based on a PUSA staffmember's name, considering how they do that in Japan...

 

[Luna Tiger]

You argue around it by pointing out that they stopped using Version titles as character names in the games after GenII, and that all of the character since GenIII (with the exception of the nameable characters from FR/LG) have had real people names. If he's going to be named anything, it most definitely shouldn't be a name that uses a pretty much defunct naming system as it's basis.

Except, you know, Silver, which is his only in-game default in Gold. And he's kind of your rival. Like Pearl. And his name is derived the same way Pearl's is: by not giving him a name through the naming process and given the default instead.

And you can argue, "but by that logic, he should also be called Diamond," and I would say, "then why isn't Silver being argued as being called Gold?" Everyone accepts Red/Gold/Ruby/Diamond as the overall "hero" version of the gen-duo. And since Pearl ain't the hero, and since he obviously isn't Platinum (since he's not given any derivative of Platinum as a default name in Pt), he's Pearl.

Silver isn't given a "civilian name", twice over. Why do you assume Pearl needs one to fit a standard that has come into some kind of practice only with the player characters?

If Pearl was meant to be inexplicably "Barry", then he would have been canonically named so, just like Wally and just like the non-player characters of third-gen and up. But he isn't. So no. Just because they dropped the "naming convention" since giving civilian names to the non-played!player character, doesn't mean they did so with the out-and-out rivals to the player.

 

[Teeth]

Speaking as someone who is really anal about the whole "Ash and Gary =/= Red and Blue" thing, I feel that this is a different issue. The characters in the games aren't named after the games themselves anymore, and they haven't been since GSC. Dawn and May's names are the same in the games as they are in the Anime, so by that logic, surely Barry's should be too? If you're going to name his game counterpart "Pearl" then May and Dawn should be renamed to "Sapphire" and "Platinum".

It really baffles me that his Manga name was chosen over his Anime name. Is there any evidence at all in the games that that is his name?

 

[Flare Blitz]

As far as we know right now, his name is still Gold. Hibiki/Kotone are the names chosen because of the NPC nature of them. I'd bet that if we went into the game data, we'd find their names as either Gold and Soul... or as Gold and (dun dun) Kris. Likewise, the rival would be named... maybe Silver, maybe Kamon, but judging by Blue and Pearl's defaults in their respective games, it'd be something crazy.

There is no player data in Gen IV, so your point is moot. And neither "Gold" nor "Kris" had actual names in the originals, in the Japanese versions at least.

Anyway, I'm not in favor of moving Gold ever, even when the Hibiki and Kotone names are translated. Why? Because Red's not Ash and Blue's not Gary, even in HGSS. And we're not moving those either.

Then we might as well refer Lucas as Diamond. There is no reason to have Hibiki's article as "Gold", it's not even one of his optional names. Heart/Soul is there instead. Red and Green have NPC appearances confirming that their names are Red and Green. Hibiki has an NPC appearance confirming his name is Hibiki.

and only in HG was his name defaulted as Silver).

Actually, it was defaulted as Heart/Soul in HGSS. About Barry's situation, unlike Silver's, it can be either Diamond or Pearl in Platinum. Not to mention, Barry is the only name used between games. (Diamond and Platinum.) The game-data also referred to him as CEDRIC, not Pearl.

FRLG used the Gen I/II naming system, as it was a Gen I remake. Thus the Gen II remakes mean that Gold is staying Gold, and Silver is staying Silver.

If that was the case, Kotone would of been "Soul".

 

[Luna Tiger]

Speaking as someone who is really anal about the whole "Ash and Gary =/= Red and Blue" thing, I feel that this is a different issue. The characters in the games aren't named after the games themselves anymore, and they haven't been since GSC. Dawn and May's names are the same in the games as they are in the Anime, so by that logic, surely Barry's should be too? If you're going to name his game counterpart "Pearl" then May and Dawn should be renamed to "Sapphire" and "Platinum".

It really baffles me that his Manga name was chosen over his Anime name. Is there any evidence at all in the games that that is his name?

Except you can assume that if Silver were ever to reappear in the anime, as a HGSS promo-thing, if he were given a "civilian" name, would we move "Silver (game)" to whatever his name is in the anime?

No, he'd simply have an anime article moved to that name, leaving behind the "Silver (game)" article where it would remain so.

This is what happened with Barry. Jun/Barry is the name they chose just like how they got Satoshi/Ash and Shigeru/Gary from their respected games, because they chose not to go down the path of calling them colors. You also cannot compare the game incarnations to the anime incarnations, simply based on them not following the same formula. If Barry were truly meant to be Pearl, he'd have the Turtwig line for a starter. Why? Because then it would be evident that he truly is supposedly following game standard. But he's not. Barry =/= Pearl the same way game!Dawn =/= anime!Dawn, etc. Even if Lucas had any of the other starters, it doesn't follow the convention because now Dawn/Lucas/Barry aren't the triumvirate they are supposed to represent, because they doubled up.

And you would have a leg to stand on, in your argument, if Silver had been given a civilian name just like Gold was. And yet, no one is changing the Gold article to Hibiki. Silver is Rival. Pearl is Rival. Hibiki and Kotone are player characters. Gold was retconned into Hibiki. "Gold (game)" article HASN'T been moved to "Hibiki".

Silver is defaulted Silver in HG. Pearl is defaulted Pearl in Diamond. If he were supposed to be Barry, wouldn't that be the name the game automatically defaulted to every time? Otherwise, he would be Wally-fied, when the player can't name the rival. That's not the case.

And we were calling him Pearl long before the manga or anime had a damn thing to do about it. It wasn't "chosen". It was made pretty clear he was Pearl when the games first came out.

 

[Flare Blitz]

Except you can assume that if Silver were ever to reappear in the anime, as a HGSS promo-thing, if he were given a "civilian" name, would we move "Silver (game)" to whatever his name is in the anime?

No, it wouldn't. It has nothing to do with the anime and I didn't even bring it up.

This is what happened with Barry. Jun/Barry is the name they chose just like how they got Satoshi/Ash and Shigeru/Gary from their respected games, because they chose not to go down the path of calling them colors. You also cannot compare the game incarnations to the anime incarnations, simply based on them not following the same formula. If Barry were truly meant to be Pearl, he'd have the Turtwig line for a starter. Why? Because then it would be evident that he truly is supposedly following game standard. But he's not. Barry =/= Pearl the same way game!Dawn =/= anime!Dawn, etc. Even if Lucas had any of the other starters, it doesn't follow the convention because now Dawn/Lucas/Barry aren't the triumvirate they are supposed to represent, because they doubled up.

And you would have a leg to stand on, in your argument, if Silver had been given a civilian name just like Gold was. And yet, no one is changing the Gold article to Hibiki. Silver is Rival. Pearl is Rival. Hibiki and Kotone are player characters. Gold was retconned into Hibiki. "Gold (game)" article HASN'T been moved to "Hibiki".

I support his article being moved to Hibiki, I made that very clear in my post.

Silver is defaulted Silver in HG. Pearl is defaulted Pearl in Diamond. If he were supposed to be Barry, wouldn't that be the name the game automatically defaulted to every time? Otherwise, he would be Wally-fied, when the player can't name the rival. That's not the case.

Silver's name is Soul in HG and Heart in SS, not Silver. Why would he be defaulted as anything else in Diamond? Why would be called Diamond if Diamond is a default for the player? And unlike Green's and Silver's situations, it's not only Pearl in Platinum whereas Green's name is only Green/Blue (US) in Yellow and Silver's is only Silver in Crystal.

And we were calling him Pearl long before the manga or anime had a damn thing to do about it. It wasn't "chosen". It was made pretty clear he was Pearl when the games first came out.

The Japanese fandom refers him as Jun, I have yet to approach someone or something referring him as Pearl. Again the other canons have nothing to do with it.

 

[Cold]

If you're going to name his game counterpart "Pearl" then May and Dawn should be renamed to "Sapphire" and "Platinum".

Actually, if you play as their male counterparts, their names are May and Dawn.