Pick a side!

[Gama]

Ok, this was something I was criticised for the first time I ever posted something here.

Essentially, there were two characters in the story, one who wanted to destroy Hoenn, and one who wanted to stop him, but it was told from the perspective of the guy trying to destroy Hoenn, and it was kind of unclear who the reader was supposed to be rooting for (the narration displayed the completion of the villain's plan as something to root for, but also Brendan successfully stopping him as something to root for).

(To be fair, the story wasn't very good anyway, but that is very much besides the point.)

Now, my question is, how do you react to stories where it is unclear who you "should" be rooting for? Now, I'm not talking about relatable villains, understandable villains or anti-heroes or anything like that. What I'm trying to ask is how you would react to something where there are, for example, two characters facing off against each other, and the narration gives both of their perspectives, therefore not really giving a clear indication of which one is the one you "should" be supporting? Do you find this frustrating? Do you like it? Do you pick a side and stick with it? Do you switch sides or support both?

 

[Kihote]

Personally, I love this question. When I read a story like that, I tend to actually think it through from both sides and then decide which one is for the greater good. That’s the one I tend to follow, but if I start to see that the other side has their reasons, then I start to hope they can reach their goal without causing harm, and in the end I start hoping they can just live in peace. I don’t know about you guys, but I actually agreed with Cyrus after I talked with him the first time I went through Mt. Coronet and didn’t actually think his way of doing things was wrong until he told me he was lying to his grunts, it wasn’t till then that I actually wanted to stop him. Similarly, I might stick to the antagonist’s views if I find them justifiable until I see whether he’s hurting people or not, same goes for the protagonist. In the end, sometimes I wish the protagonist had failed to stop the antagonist, and other times I’m convinced that had they met under different circumstances, they would have been great friends. (In my opinion that is one of the most tragic things for a protagonist/antagonist to say to the other)

 

[Gama]

@Chaosj2

Have you ever seen or read Death Note? I just realised that this question is highly applicable to that series. It is quite telling that at the end of one of the early episodes both Light and L say simultaneously "I am justice!"

 

[Kihote]

I read some of it, then got swamped by stuff, found Bakuman and have yet to return to reading it ><

But yeah, that's a perfect example, create a new world by killing off 'evil' or try to stop a vile murderer?

 

[Safe]

Have you ever seen or read Death Note? I just realised that this question is highly applicable to that series. It is quite telling that at the end of one of the early episodes both Light and L say simultaneously "I am justice!"

Death note was awesome, and is a perfect example for this question.

To tell truth, I always go with the side that is the obvious good, until the writer reveals he isn't, unless he doesn't.

Basically, I go with the side that has a good intention in heart, with is usually described by the writer, and of course the character's actions. So, if a character has a good intention and is doing good things, then I on his side. Any other combination is flawed.

That's why in the example of death note, I'm with L, because Light's methods are wrong.

And in the case were both of them have good intentions and methods, then I support the one who is more right, which in this case depends on your own perception and on the setting.

 

[Gama]

So, @Aura Origin How would you feel if over the course of every two or three episodes of an anime or something the writers revealed new things that presented opposite characters as "right"?

 

[Safe]

@Gastly's Mama

Well, I'd consider it very intriguing and exciting; like, who's the good guy?!

Usually that's just a technique writers use to get the reader thirsty before he starts getting to the real juice.

 

[Necrozma]

I think Death Note is not that much of a good example because while Light did have good intentions, he was driven to the madness by the power he possessed - thus, it was easy for me to root for the actual good guys despite him being the protagonist. As I've never read such type of fiction I say that it would be pretty easy for me to choose a side but if both sides had really, really good arguments then I guess I'd have to settle for both of those characters and hope for the best conclusion. Though that would also depend on the kind of characters they are.

Honestly, I would really like to read a fic. like that.

 

[Gama]

Interesting.

So, @Aura Origin @Tsutarja You guys never root for the bad guy? I have to admit, sometimes I find myself rooting for the bad guy shamelessly. It's just... sometimes their plans are so good that you just want them to succeed!

 

[Necrozma]

Interesting.So, @Aura Origin @Tsutarja You guys never root for the bad guy? I have to admit, sometimes I find myself rooting for the bad guy shamelessly. It's just... sometimes their plans are so good that you just want them to succeed!

Actually, there are times in Pokémon anime when I rooted for Team Rocket. Most of the time we saw them as these goofy villains who always failed in getting Pikachu but when Ash and co. weren't around, we got to see Team Rocket in a new light, we got to see episodes focused on them and their history. Despite the fact they aren't actually 'bad' guys, I really found myself rooting for them quite a bit in some episodes.

Other than that, no, I could never root for a villain unless a damn good reason was provided.

 

[Safe]

I think Death Note is not that much of a good example because while Light did have good intentions, he was driven to the madness by the power he possessed - thus, it was easy for me to root for the actual good guys despite him being the protagonist.

Then, I guess maybe Code Geass could be a better example.

I have to admit, sometimes I find myself rooting for the bad guy shamelessly. It's just... sometimes their plans are so good that you just want them to succeed!

Well, that's just being pretentious. I mean, no matter how illuminating the dark side might be you'll still end up blind in the end. And no matter how hopeless the good side might be you have to keep fighting and struggling.

In my experience, evil is easy and shallow, while good isn't as difficult in itself, as it is difficult to achieve.

 

[Gama]

@Tsutarja

I think you're essentially describing what I'm talking about, though I'm not too familiar with later seasons of the anime. When you feel you relate with Team Rocket or support them, do you mean you support them in their doing of something bad because you kind of feel sorry for them with regards to their history and experiences etc.?

I have to admit, sometimes I find myself rooting for the bad guy shamelessly. It's just... sometimes their plans are so good that you just want them to succeed!

Well, that's just being pretentious. I mean, no matter how illuminating the dark side might be you'll still end up blind in the end. And no matter how hopeless the good side might be you have to keep fighting and struggling.

In my experience, evil is easy and shallow, while good isn't as difficult in itself, as it is difficult to achieve.

What I get from your post is that you don't know what the word "pretentious" means...

Why exactly do "you have to keep fighting and struggling"? I think your post is an enormous sweeping statement and generalisation. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that no matter how "illuminating" the dark side is you'll still end up blind... My point is that often a character who does bad things can be an endearing character, readers and viewers etc. of various media can often find themselves being drawn to the character of the "villain" more than they are drawn to the "hero", this is kind of where the concept of an anti-hero comes from. I don't think you can dismiss the idea of supporting the villain as "being pretentious" (even if that statement made any sense with regards to your backing up of it) - there is a huge amount of literature, films etc. that are essentially dedicated to making someone who is doing evil things a relatable and encouraging the audience to want the villain to succeed in the evil thing that they are doing.

 

[Safe]

That's interesting, I guess the goal in this case is for readers to have varying opinions and viewpoints, or else why would someone write something expecting everyone to accept their viewpoint.

And that's probably what I meant when I said pretentious, I feel that nowadays writers don't give the reader a chance to make up their mind, and kind of force their own opinions on them.

 

[Necrozma]

@Tsutarja

I think you're essentially describing what I'm talking about, though I'm not too familiar with later seasons of the anime. When you feel you relate with Team Rocket or support them, do you mean you support them in their doing of something bad because you kind of feel sorry for them with regards to their history and experiences etc.?

Eh, to be honest, they do not really do bad stuff.

For example, when they each released Arbok and Weezing. They confronted a Pokémon Hunter who had a powerful Tyranitar and let their Pokémon go in order to let the group of Ekans and Koffing who were previously captured as they suffered through great ordeal in the process. It's not that I root for them in their bad deeds, it's more that I root for them knowing that they're not exactly the nicest people on the planet, it all depends on the situation. In the most recent series, Best Wishes/Black & White, Team Rocket has become quite serious and has stopped appearing as frequently as before and they're not as a goofy villain as they were before. Sadly enough, I can't root for them anymore, AT ALL!

Though I think I may be stepping on the good guy territory now despite Jessie, James and Meowth not being completely good nor completely bad.

 

[Gama]

That's interesting, I guess the goal in this case is for readers to have varying opinions and viewpoints, or else why would someone write something expecting everyone to accept their viewpoint.

And that's probably what I meant when I said pretentious, I feel that nowadays writers don't give the reader a chance to make up their mind, and kind of force their own opinions on them.

That's a big thing for me, actually. I really like ambiguous characters that don't clearly fit into either 'hero' or 'villain' so I am free to make up my own mind and interpret for myself.

 

[Kihote]

Personally I think that's one of the best appeals to something like this. If the author never tells you which is 'right' and which is 'wrong' people will form their own opinions based on their own experiences. Then when two readers meet, they might have conflicting views and then those around them might want to learn more about this 'conflict of views' thus giving the writer more publicity. That and the fact that you at times have to use your own beliefs to form said opinion makes the character you root towards much more real than ever before.

 

[Misheard Whisper]

Yeah, I tend to just go with whoever I feel is doing the right thing, especially if it's a morals-based question. I have this strange kind of morality, however, where I believe that in most cases, the end justifies the means. Under that logic, I definitely side with Light in Death Note and Lelouch in Code Geass - though they're basically villains with a respectable goal, I can see what they want and often I can't see a better way to get it.

Code Geass is actually an interesting one, especially when you look at the conflict between Lelouch and Suzaku - two characters who are essentially working towards the same goal, but through entirely different methods. When I was watching it, though, I just thought that Suzaku's concept of changing Britannia from the inside seemed slow, foolish and unlikely to succeed, so I backed Lelouch all the way. Sure, people died (and don't get me wrong, my opinion would likely be somewhat different in the real world) but at the end of the day, it was an effective - if risky - method that made sense in context.

Back to Death Note again - this is also why I backed Light. He was killing off people who had already demonstrated that they were unwilling to contribute to society, and were unlikely to come around. On the other hand, I also believe that no human being has the right to dictate whether another human lives or dies. On the other other hand, well . . . it's a dog-eat-dog world, and animals kill each other all the time for less. So that's a murky morality question. But I egged Light on all the way because I wanted to see his dream become a reality. He had this grandiose, insane vision of a world without evil, and the simultaneous attraction of that world and the darker, macabre fascination with this young man who wanted to be God combined to win me over almost completely. The best part of the series, of course, was that I could always sympathise with L as well, though.

I don't know. Sometimes when you find yourself standing on a continuum in various shades of grey, the only thing you can do is pick the spot that seems good, grit your teeth and dig your heels in. That's how I see it, at least.

 

[diamondpearl876]

I'm personally not sure why you got yelled at for providing two perspectives and then not making it clear who you should root for. It just makes me think that some people don't want to form their own opinion or think too hard about their morals long enough to choose. They'd rather have their mind made up for them. I agree with some of the posters who've said that it's better to expand the reader's mind than it is to try to please them.

In this scenario, I really try to see things from both sides. I don't really choose a side until the very end, when all is said and done, so that all actions can be carefully considered.

 

[TheLlama]

I like it. And why? It's more realistic. Those whom we see as bad and evil in this world, often have the same views upon us (think the Middle East conflict). Both sides fight for a cause they think justified, and both think the other are in the wrong. I do not believe in moral absolutes (or absolutes of any kind), and while often easier to write in a story, villains who aren't evil, or motivated solely by negative emotions (hate, revenge, etc.), are more intriguing. The West fight for freedom, liberty and democracy in pretty much every conflict in the Middle East etc. (or at least so we are led to believe), and that seems righteous. But those we invade, do they actually want the same things? Do they think of it like we do, or do they see our actions as injustice, as the same kind of evil we see in their way of living? And do our politicians actually fight for those noble values, or are there strategic goals behind? A wish for control, resources, those things?

Conspiracies aside, my point is, in the real world you may often come across conflicts in which both sides are both justified and unjustified, from a neutral perspective. Where the concepts of good and evil are scrapped, save for propaganda telling us the other side is evil and ours is just? I've only used national conflicts as an example, but this will very much apply to people as well, and thus villains and good guys. Thus morally grey conflicts are interesting, because they're closer to reality, and farther from the cliche "good vs. evil" where it is very clear who/what is evil and what is good. It's also much harder to write, but so much more exiting to read, done well!

The funny thing is, a story I'm writing now is just about this. While the characters may seem good and evil, a large portion of the whole point is that, in the end, most are simply fighting for what they see as just (there are some good and some bad, though). But acting out of justice and what you think is right, is in fact closing your mind to the alternatives. As soon as you choose a side which you think is just, you're biased. And that's a lot of the conflict or the main characters. Which side is just? Should I even pick a side?

(I'd love to tell more, but that would be spoiling an upcoming story P

All that said, I actually quite enjoy characters and conflicts that are more black/white, where the good and evil is clear. It very much depends on the story, but for some stories that is more important. It all depends on where the focus lies. I mean, a series like Lord of the Rings is a series where you need the good, and the evil side. it is clear that all those who act in favor of Mordor are evil, or have been corrupted by evil, the lines are pretty clear. Likewise, those who go against Mordor are quite clearly good. Are there grey characters, they're more than often mystical entities slightly removed from the world and conflict at large, and thus it doesn't create so much conflict; not in the same way. Basically, the clear lines between good and evil, both in actions and in characters, creates the conflict. The story isn't about what is just and what is unjust - it's simply about overcoming that which clearly is unjust and evil. And it works. Had LotR been more about ambiguous factions, where you couldn't discern whether Mordor or the forces of light were in the right, it would have been a completely different story! (though if one takes the social commentary into play, with Mordor representing industrialization and progress, and the good guys representing those which are inconvenienced by this (the colonies, nature (the Ents are a personification of the nature vs. industry conflict), and so on), it becomes slightly more skewed - but not enough).

Err-hem. Rambling, I am. But I think I made my point...? If not: Both are interesting, in their own way. Having someone to clearly root for is often as interesting as having to pick someone to root for. It depends on the type of story and, as always, the quality of writing.

 

[The Booty Warrior]

Ah, the picking sides deal...

Personally, I think ambiguity is one of the most amazing tricks in the book, even if it's one of the oldest. For me, however, it takes a lot to get me to root for the villain. In the Assassin's Creed series, for example, when dealing with the less-crazy/evil-seeming Templars, as I listen to their dying words, I occassionally slip into their mindset, thinking, Maybe they have a point. Sure, freedom is nice and all, and the Assassins are working to allow mankind to choose its path to being a better species...but how many milions more lives have to be lost before that day finally comes?

Of course, it is usually at this point that I remember that the Templars are going to mind control the planet and rule the people as they see fit, with them forming a dictatorship, and then I'm back on the Assassin's side.

In most cases, however, if I root for a villain, it's usualy when they're of the Designated Villain variety, and especially if the heroes are of the Designated Hero type.

Also, I dunno if Death Note is too good an example. I will admit, I have not fully followed the series, but I heard that later on, Light started contemplating killing people if they were being lazy. For me, if this is true, this is the part where it's impossible for me to root for Light, regardless of how his ends justify his means. As the series goes on, he slips farther and farther into his demented delusions of moral absolutes. The line separating him from guys like Near and L, I think, would be that those two are okay with their flaws, whereas Light cannot accept that there is anything wrong with him. Why should he when, as far as he is concerned, he's God, right?

It's a matter of pride that I also find in Lex Luthor. There was one miniseries, I think, that told the story from Lex's view. However, we're still supposed to realize he's the villain. Lexy's whole beef with the Big Blue Boyscout is that here he is, this awesome norman human businessman, a self-made man. Then, out of nowhere, here comes this alien in spandex, with superpowers that render everything he's ever accomplished moot. He also believes that Superman will make humans come to rely on him solely, which will cause stagnation in our evolution. Except for the part where other metahumans besides Supes show up and prove that he was wrong. We don't rely on the superheroes, but we look to them for inspiration. But Lexy is waaaay too proud to admit this. He's the greatest human being on Earth, after all, so how could the greatest human being ever be wrong? That said, a lot of Elseworld stories will depict an Earth in which Superman had not appeared as a utopia under Lex. But even then, despite him always saying that if it wasn't for Superman's meddling presence he would have solved all the world's problems, as the Man of Steel points out when he returns at the end of the 52 storyline, Luthor had a whole year without him to work on fixing the world's problems, and squandered all that time planning ways to kill Superman. And then there's the whole symbolism of Lex being the Satan of the human race trying to fight its God (Superman).

As for Code Geass, I definitely think that is a better example of ambiguity. However, and I could be kinda wrong, since I haven't watched the series for awhile, I kinda find Suzaku's behavior to be kind of hypocritical. I'll explain better once I have time to go back and do a bit of research again.