Pikachu pre-evolution and gender differences...

[Xenidal]

Does anyone else feel that Pikachu should not have ever been given a pre-evolution or gender differences in the games, as it contradicts the anime?
Like, in one episode in the first season they showed a Pikachu nest and there were absolutely no Pichus at all. If Pikachu offspring are always Pichu I would think there'd be at least some Pichus at the Pikachu nest (which couldn't have happened since Pichu didn't exist yet). They've actually been able to make the Pichu thing work, so it's not much of a problem, but the gender difference most certainly is.
Pikachu have a 50-50 gender distribution... but I have never once seen a female Pikachu in the anime. And this is even worse considering the fact that they showed a Pikachu nest... surely there'd be some females. This gender difference was completely unnecessary (not all Pokémon even have gender differences... so why give Pikachu one?)

 

[GreatLiver]

No. The anime doesn't dictate the games, the games dictate the anime, and things like that are going to happen when you have a franchise that lasts for more than 15 years.

 

[MarshiyanMisutaa]

Like, in one episode in the first season they showed a Pikachu nest and there were absolutely no Pichus at all. If Pikachu offspring are always Pichu I would think there'd be at least some Pichus at the Pikachu nest (which couldn't have happened since Pichu didn't exist yet).

Well, we didn't see any Raichus as well. Maybe they're living in seperate communities?

And this is even worse considering the fact that they showed a Pikachu nest... surely there'd be some females. This gender difference was completely unnecessary

How is that different from other pokemon species? We never seen gender differences in their nests as well. It's supposed to be some kind of art evolution/retcon.

 

[Force Fire]

Well, our theory is anime=/=games

 

[Iteru]

Does anyone else feel that Pikachu should not have ever been given a pre-evolution or gender differences in the games, as it contradicts the anime?
Like, in one episode in the first season they showed a Pikachu nest and there were absolutely no Pichus at all. If Pikachu offspring are always Pichu I would think there'd be at least some Pichus at the Pikachu nest (which couldn't have happened since Pichu didn't exist yet). They've actually been able to make the Pichu thing work, so it's not much of a problem, but the gender difference most certainly is.
Pikachu have a 50-50 gender distribution... but I have never once seen a female Pikachu in the anime. And this is even worse considering the fact that they showed a Pikachu nest... surely there'd be some females. This gender difference was completely unnecessary (not all Pokémon even have gender differences... so why give Pikachu one?)

The issue is that you're applying Gen II additions (baby Pokémon) and Gen IV additions (visual gender differences) to episodes based and aired during Generation I. That Pikachu nest thing was when Satoshi tried to release Pikachu right? That was Kanto when those additions didn't exist yet.

 

[Moe]

The issue is that you're applying Gen II additions (baby Pokémon) and Gen IV additions (visual gender differences) to episodes based and aired during Generation I. That Pikachu nest thing was when Satoshi tried to release Pikachu right? That was Kanto when those additions didn't exist yet.

That's the point though, why make Pichu and gender differences for such a prominent Pokemon when not all Pokemon got them?

The issue with the particular episode was that the other Pikachu were all noticably smaller than Ash's one, making them out to be 'baby Pikachu'. They also seemed to have different tail patterns, making the eventual use of a tail distinction of male and female odd.

Spoiler

There's a few things the game developers could have done that would have made the retcons in the anime a little bit smoother, not having Pichu (or perhaps being like Munchlax and requiring a held item, making 'baby Pikachu' legitimate, as well as having Pichu) would have made it easier.

 

[Iteru]

That's the point though, why make Pichu and gender differences for such a prominent Pokemon when not all Pokemon got them?

Baby Pokémon in my opinion were only given to those who were a)marketable already and b)could feasible make a baby out of. If you took say, Abra, could you really make that look younger and different enough to be a baby?

making the eventual use of a tail distinction of male and female odd.

Spoiler

There's a few things the game developers could have done that would have made the retcons in the anime a little bit smoother, not having Pichu (or perhaps being like Munchlax and requiring a held item, making 'baby Pikachu' legitimate, as well as having Pichu) would have made it easier.

Bear in mind what was said earlier about the games dictating the anime and not the other way around. If the anime is going to introduce things not in the games, then it should know that the future games may just happen to do the same thing but differently. It's not the game developers who should be making it easier for the anime.

 

[Moe]

Bear in mind what was said earlier about the games dictating the anime and not the other way around. If the anime is going to introduce things not in the games, then it should know that the future games may just happen to do the same thing but differently. It's not the game developers who should be making it easier for the anime.

I agree in general, but where it wouldn't cause much problems, what's the reason not to? For example, making shiny Butterfree fully pink would have not made much difference to the games, but would have gone a long way to helping the anime be consistent. Obviously with the excessive use of Attract it's kinda a moot point now, but not giving Pikachu a gender difference would have made it easier for the anime to keep Ash's Pikachu gender-neutral like it was supposedly intended by the anime writers.

I can't imagine they work in total seclusion from each other, the game designers and anime producers - and Yellow showed how they can work parts of the Anime into the games without taking away too much of the storyline of the games. Where one can make it a bit easier for the other to be consistent, they should. The introduction of really obvious Gender differences for old Pokemon probably should have excluded ones that were very common in the Anime.

That said, considering the horrible round headed Pikachu has found its way in to all sorts of promotional media despite not being in the games or anime, shows that they don't exactly consider consistency in design a major issue.

 

[Xenidal]

Well, we didn't see any Raichus as well. Maybe they're living in seperate communities?

Well, the ting with that is that to evolve a Pikachu needs exposure to a Thunderstone, which there aren't any in the Viridian Forest (or where ever that nest was). Pikachu doesn't need to evolve in order to breed. However, every Pikachu does need to start out as a Pichu, and what makes things worse is like Moe said, some of the Pikachu were drawn much smaller / cuter than the rest and could be assumed to be babies. Making Pikachu's pre-evolution like Munchlax would have solved the problem.

How is that different from other pokemon species? We never seen gender differences in their nests as well. It's supposed to be some kind of art evolution/retcon.

Its different because the nests are rarely shown and when they are, its not the nests of any Pokémon who have gender differences (that I know of) so it's never a problem. If the other Pokémon do have gender differences then yes, it's not different at all and I'd have the same complaint about them. As for it just being a drawing style that doesn't pay attention to details like that... that's possible, but it's likely that in some future episode someone is going to come along with a female Pikachu that looks different and its going to open up a major inconsistency. Probably not in this season since Pikachus are rare in Unova, but I think it'll eventually happen.

I can't imagine they work in total seclusion from each other, the game designers and anime producers - and Yellow showed how they can work parts of the Anime into the games without taking away too much of the storyline of the games. Where one can make it a bit easier for the other to be consistent, they should. The introduction of really obvious Gender differences for old Pokemon probably should have excluded ones that were very common in the Anime.

I completely agree with this. Yes, the games usually dictate the anime, but it sometimes works the other way around. Yellow was modified a lot to reflect the anime. HeartGold and SoulSilver allow Pokémon to travel outside their Poké Balls, which was most likely based on the anime. The whole concept of happiness was introduced in the anime, along with salons. There are other things that were introduced in the anime and then later implemented into the games. Also, I don't know about this, but I'd assume that there's at least some coordination between the makers of the anime and the games. I mean, if there wasn't, how would the animators have even known what to make Houou look like in the first episode?
And like he said, if the games wants to change something and has the ability to do so in a way that would help it like the example of the pink Butterfree, they should do so. Things like major changes to Pikachu's design should be left alone.

 

[MarshiyanMisutaa]

Well, the ting with that is that to evolve a Pikachu needs exposure to a Thunderstone, which there aren't any in the Viridian Forest (or where ever that nest was).

And a Pichu needs a Soothe Bell (which there aren't any in the Viridian Forest, or where ever that nest was) or "Happiness" (Happiness is a measurement of how much a Pokémon loves its Trainer and enjoys being in their care) to evolve.

and what makes things worse is like Moe said, some of the Pikachu were drawn much smaller / cuter than the rest and could be assumed to be babies.

It's just shows that they're younger than Satoshi's Pikachu. And baby Pikachus/Raichus are easy to make.

 

[Moe]

And a Pichu needs a Soothe Bell (which there aren't any in the Viridian Forest, or where ever that nest was) or "Happiness" (Happiness is a measurement of how much a Pokémon loves its Trainer and enjoys being in their care) to evolve.

The anime sucks at Happiness evolutions in general. Brock was about the best trainer anyone could ask for but it took him hundreds of episodes to evolve Happiny Considering Ash gets a Leavanny by ignoring it. It's certainly a game mechanic that did not transfer well.

It was interesting that the Pokedex entry in BW001 actually referenced Pikachu as 'the evolved form of Pichu'. As Dogasu's comparison of DP021 mentions:

In the Japanese version, the reporter asks Satoshi if his Pikachu evolved from a Pichu, to which Satoshi replies that it did not.

So it seems like previously the anime tried to put some doubt as to whether all Pikachu evolve from Pichu - they usually leave it out of the dex entries. Though I can imagine the line also could simply be that the evolution didn't happen while Ash had it.

Edit: Confused Blissey with Happiny - but that just makes it worse, the evolution was the oval stone it got almost immediately, considering Gligar got "Gliscor'd" just by touching, it makes for even more inconsistency with evolutions.

 

[garrison-san]

Yes, it does make "Pikachu's Forest" look a little quaint with retrospect, but I personally am not losing sleep over it. Remember, the existence of additional generations period contradicts what was said in earlier days of the anime, at least insofar as how the anime incorporates them into its continuity. During Ash's original quest, it was stated repeatedly that the Generation I pokemon were the only documented species of pokemon, whilst alluding to the possibility of there being infinite undiscovered species (leaving the door open for endless sequels). The first Generation II pokemon we saw (Ho-oh, Togepi) were treated as new and mysterious discoveries, but once the follow-up had arrived wholesale the anime acted as if the newest pokemon had always been around and interacting with humans, and followed suit with all generations after that. James apparently spent his childhood becoming an expert in Sunflora behaviour and pining for a Chimecho to call his own, when he wasn't playing the Carnivine he pulled out of a mud puddle.

 

[MarshiyanMisutaa]

Edit: Confused Blissey with Happiny - but that just makes it worse, the evolution was the oval stone it got almost immediately, considering Gligar got "Gliscor'd" just by touching, it makes for even more inconsistency with evolutions.

Pikachu also touched a Thunderstone, without evolving into anything.

 

[Nyutwo]

I don't like the idea of genderlessness. Rare or not, they have to reproduce somehow or they wouldn't exist at all. Arceus, Dialga, Palkia and Giratina are exceptions, since they're immortal deities and not really "real" animals.

I have a huge problem with Mewtwo being categorized as genderless, when he is so obviously, undeniably male. Some biological traits are restricted to gender, such as sound of ones' voice. Giovanni even refers to Mewtwo as a male in the dub of Mewtwo Returns, though I'm not sure how different it was to the original Japanese version :/

 

[RWB]

I have a huge problem with Mewtwo being categorized as genderless, when he is so obviously, undeniably male. Some biological traits are restricted to gender, such as sound of ones' voice. Giovanni even refers to Mewtwo as a male in the dub of Mewtwo Returns, though I'm not sure how different it was to the original Japanese version :/

It's yet another reference to it's origin: Giygas/Giygue from Mother 1.

Giygas was of unknown gender/gender-neutral in the japanese version, but like Mewtwo referred to as male in America/Europe.


That being said, universal he/him can be used for all unknown genders, not just male.

 

[Xenidal]

Pikachu also touched a Thunderstone, without evolving into anything.

Well, that might not be a problem... the games never indicate how long the Pokémon needs to be exposed to the stone in order to evolve. Pikachu only touched it for a split second (as far as I remember) so maybe it never took effect. That doesn't explain how the Clefairy evolved into Clefable from barely any exposure to the Moon Stone though.

I don't like the idea of genderlessness. Rare or not, they have to reproduce somehow or they wouldn't exist at all. Arceus, Dialga, Palkia and Giratina are exceptions, since they're immortal deities and not really "real" animals.

I have a huge problem with Mewtwo being categorized as genderless, when he is so obviously, undeniably male. Some biological traits are restricted to gender, such as sound of ones' voice. Giovanni even refers to Mewtwo as a male in the dub of Mewtwo Returns, though I'm not sure how different it was to the original Japanese version :/

I completely agree with this. That has always annoyed me, especially to the Legendaries who have had their gender indicated. According to the anime, Mewtwo is definitely male, and since there has only ever been one of him then he must be male in the games as well (unless its an "alternate universe" Mewtwo... but either way, he needs a gender). And according to the games, Mew (at least one of them if there are more than one) was female, so it makes no sense for them to all be genderless. I have no problem with "inorganic" Pokémon (like Magnemite and Voltorb) being genderless though

 

[Xenidal]

It's yet another reference to it's origin: Giygas/Giygue from Mother 1.

Giygas was of unknown gender/gender-neutral in the japanese version, but like Mewtwo referred to as male in America/Europe.


That being said, universal he/him can be used for all unknown genders, not just male.

Yeah, you can say "him" when referring to unknown genders, but Mewtwo definitely had a gender.
As for Mewtwo being a reference to Giygas... I never played EarthBound so I really know nothing about Giygas, but from what I know Giygas was an alien, right? That's a completely different story... it is conceiveable for an alien to have an unknown gender / no gender, but it is impossible for a mammal to be that way (unless he was born with an extra chromosome or something). Mewtwo was clearly a mammal (well, a mammal-like Pokémon) just as Mew was.

 

[RWB]

Mewtwo was massively spliced and genetically manipulated, it's quite possible they removed "genitalia" to empower it instead. Game Mewtwo is a monster that cares for nothing but battle and victory, it doesn't really have the concept of anything else.

 

[voicerocker]

Does anyone else feel that Pikachu should not have ever been given a pre-evolution or gender differences in the games, as it contradicts the anime?
Like, in one episode in the first season they showed a Pikachu nest and there were absolutely no Pichus at all. If Pikachu offspring are always Pichu I would think there'd be at least some Pichus at the Pikachu nest (which couldn't have happened since Pichu didn't exist yet). They've actually been able to make the Pichu thing work, so it's not much of a problem, but the gender difference most certainly is.
Pikachu have a 50-50 gender distribution... but I have never once seen a female Pikachu in the anime. And this is even worse considering the fact that they showed a Pikachu nest... surely there'd be some females. This gender difference was completely unnecessary (not all Pokémon even have gender differences... so why give Pikachu one?)

The Pokemon franchise as a whole has evolved since the first generation. I think they're just trying to find smaller ways to make Pokemon more appealing to people. As others have said, the events of the anime and the events of the games shouldn't be considered to be happening in the same universe. Gary in the anime becomes a Pokemon professor, while he/Blue in the games becomes Viridian's Gym Leader. I think its generally accepted that the anime and games don't follow the exact same logic.

Other than the Pikachu Forest and the St. Anne episode, I don't think there are very many Pikachu in the anime. Therefore, it could be possible that simply no females have appeared yet. But you can't say "why didn't the gender differences show up in the anime?" when that concept didn't exist back then. That's like asking why the original Game Boys can't pick up Wi-Fi.

Though I don't imagine myself stressing out to have a Pichu, I don't have a problem with them. Again, probably was just an attempt to make Pokemon more appealing without changing what Pokemon is all about. Pikachu was thought to be cute, so they introduced a baby version of it which was made to intentionally be cuter than Pikachu.

I don't like the idea of genderlessness. Rare or not, they have to reproduce somehow or they wouldn't exist at all. Arceus, Dialga, Palkia and Giratina are exceptions, since they're immortal deities and not really "real" animals.

I have a huge problem with Mewtwo being categorized as genderless, when he is so obviously, undeniably male. Some biological traits are restricted to gender, such as sound of ones' voice. Giovanni even refers to Mewtwo as a male in the dub of Mewtwo Returns, though I'm not sure how different it was to the original Japanese version :/

The anime follows different logic than the games. Though some Pokemon are genderless in-game, the anime might not reflect that. In the cases of the games, Legendaries are made gendereless to add to their myth and mystery, but also to prevent breeding. Some people think they are supernatural spirits and some as you mentioned are even considered gods. It makes no sense for supposed spirits and gods to have to breed. Though, this only seems to be an issue about the Legendary Pokemon. Most genderless Pokemon are based on objects.

Now, as for Mewtwo, it makes total sense that it would be genderless. For one, it was created through an impossible means of cloning to begin with, so its very existence isn't logical at all. (The anime seems to hint that its body was regenerated and altered from 1 Mew hair. Mewtwo uses this process to clone his army of Pokemon later.) It was created to be a war machine for Giovanni in the anime, and seems to have been created for similar reasons in the games. Going by the anime, it would make sense for Giovanni to want it to be genderless to prevent it from breeding and taking away its unique and supposedly ultimate power, since Mew was believed to be extinct. Mewtwo wouldn't be the "strongest Pokemon" if there were several of them around.

 

[Xenidal]

Mewtwo was massively spliced and genetically manipulated, it's quite possible they removed "genitalia" to empower it instead. Game Mewtwo is a monster that cares for nothing but battle and victory, it doesn't really have the concept of anything else.

I thought about that, but even if it had no genitalia it'd still technically have a gender (since it would still have either an X or Y chromosome), assuming that the biology of real animals apply to Pokémon (which it's possible that they don't, considering what I'm about to say). Genitalia are never shown at all. Probably because its a kid's show and they don't want to make it sexual or anything, but with no indication of genitalia then we can't even assume that any Pokémon have any. It's even stated in the games that "no one knows where the egg comes from", not that Pokémon lay eggs or even have sex or anything.

For one, it was created through an impossible means of cloning to begin with, so its very existence isn't logical at all. (The anime seems to hint that its body was regenerated and altered from 1 Mew hair. Mewtwo uses this process to clone his army of Pokemon later.)

That's not impossible, we just don't have the technology to do stuff like that yet. But there's no reason that it can't be done (technology in the anime is more advanced than real-world technology anyway). And in the real-world, plants and animals can already be genetically modified... not to the point that Mewtwo was, but its conceivable that eventually it will be doable. Extinct animals (like the mammoth) can theorically be cloned, even though it hasn't been done yet. It's possible that in the future there could be machines that an embryo can be grown in rather than them needing to put it into a female animal of the same or similar species. And in the games its even more possible, since Mewtwo was born from a Mew and not some machine.

Also, just because a Pokémon can't breed doesn't mean it doesn't need a gender. There are a few Legendary Pokémon who do have genders and can't breed. And there's a lot of Pokémon who can breed who don't have genders.