Project Bulbagarden Tiers

[coolking503]

Salamence and Latias's banning has drawn alot of criticism from people, and the point was made that smogon has monopolized the competitive pokemon tiers. I was thinking, as I am sure many others were, why wont another site make something, so we wont be stuck playing whatever 9 people want us to. That other site, hopefully, will be us.

Obviously, if we want to make our own tiers, we will have to start from the beginning. If we start with a pre-made list, we will end up on the same path as what the others ended up with. I think there is no point in making a metagame exactly the same as smogon's, except without mence, or with some other minor change. I have heard (not actually confirmed), that some Japanese tiering sites find completely different things over powered, such as snorlax. This will provide an interesting twist from what we take for granted.

Unless there are any objections, I think the standard Uber>OU>BL>UU is fine, however if we want to make NU playable, there should be a banlist for that too. So it would end up as Uber>OU>BL>UU>SU>NU, with SU being sometimes used. However, I dont want to worry about the lower tiers until we finish OU.

Remember, generation 4 is almost over, so we may not get done with this on time. However, if we want to, we can start from the beginning in gen 5, hopefully competing from the start for the most used tier list.

Now, before we get to the tiers themselves, I have a question for you all on movesets: I think the HG/SS mimic glitch allowing any pokemon to learn any move is obviously out of the question. However, some moves may not be. Currently, smogon allows ANY move a pokemon can learn; event, egg move, HM, TM, tutor, or level up, to be used. We dont have to make that so. Pokemon like tickle wobbufett and wish blissey are from small events from gen 3, and are nearly impossible to obtain in real life, much less one with good ivs and a good nature. While I definetely think event moves and 3rd gen tutor moves are all right, I dont believe that event moves from generation 3 should be allowed. I want your thoughts on that, though, since it would be interesting to have a metagame without wish blissey, among other event move pokemon.

Finally, the tiers themselves. First matter of buisness, as outlined above, will be differentiating OU from Uber, after which, we can form the other tiers. Because we are starting from the begining, only few pokemon which are obviously overpowering will be banned.
These are:

Spoiler

arceus
darkrai
deoxys
deoxys attack form
dialga
giritina
giritina-o
groudon
ho-oh
kyogre
Lugia
Mewtwo
palkia
reyquaza
wobbufett

Notable pokemon which aren't banned, but are going to be tested (subject to change):
deoxys-d
deoxys-s
garchomp
latias (remember soul dew clause)
latios (remember soul dew clause)
manaphy
mew
shaymin-s
salamence
wynaut
jirachi
heatran
celebi



If there are any pokemon you feel should be added to the second list, or subtracted from the first, post it here. We want to be as comprehensive as possible, so testing all these is a must. However, any more are welcome.

It may seem odd that all these pokemon are unbanned, however I would think making our own tracks would be best, instead of following someone else's footprints, then branching off.

Now how do we do this?

Well, obviously we need to test this in a metagame where all of these are unbanned, and see the results. Unfortunetly, we dont have a shoddy server yet, so we cant set up a ladder with this ban list. Instead, we must seek out and find each other. I suggest you battle people on Pokemon online or shoddy, or even wifi if you want. I would make a new alt on shoddy/PO called coolking[bmgftiers] or coolking[bulbagarden], so people know you want to battle in this format, similar to PO, where people have then name coolking[vgc].

Now, to get some info on usage, I will create a spreadsheet on google docs. While we cant actually get usage stats like smogon, we shouldnt have to many people to start, and therefore a few people can update the doc. Therefore, if you have a battle using these tiers, pm/vm me what pokemon were used by both sides (no need to include names). I will update the doc. If you want to edit the doc, pm me and I might give you editing permission, depending on if I trust you or not. When you send the info to an editor, only send it to 1, not all. That way, we wont have two people editing in the same info, giving double the stats.

list of editors:
coolking503

Now, say we have been going for a while, and it is time to decide what is and isnt Uber. How do we decide? Firstly, someone will have to propose a pokemon to vote upon. To do that, you must write a decent arguement on why it should be voted uber. Then, if it is well written or many people agree, it will be voted upon. There will be no more than 3 suspects voted on at a time, due to too much change in the metagame. Also, you may only propose one candidate in your paragraph, though you may say you support others being voted as well. Now, once we decide who is voted upon, we must decide who gets to vote. You must post a paragraph on all the candidates you plan to vote for or against, and finally, in which tier you think it belongs in. While there is no limit to the number of voters, your paragraph must be presentable for your vote to count.

Anyways, I think that is all. The process repeats and we eliminate all the pokemon we think are immediately broken. At that point, we begin to slow down, and hopefully have a stable metagame. Which everyone thinks is fair.

So, What do I post here?

1. thoughts about the process in general. Any changes you believe should be there I will take into consideration, and depending on what it is, will change it. I would like some justification though.
2. What are your thoughts on event moves, 3rd gen exclusive moves, and 3rd gen exclusive events?
3. discussion about the metagame
4. basically anything about the project, usage stats, etc.

edit:
usage link: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AmQpvujn0a0FdG1TbXIwX182aUFRQ2d5ZTU4LVozMmc&hl=en
also, contct each other to try to get battles. I am making a team now, I encourage others to do the same
lastly, if someone could begin hosting a shoddy/PO server 24/7, that would be awesome. I cant because my internet is shaky, and it keeps going on and off at times

 

[Our Wasted Years]

I have heard (not actually confirmed), that some Japanese tiering sites find completely different things over powered, such as snorlax. This will provide an interesting twist from what we take for granted.

Most of them also play with things like evasion clause and etc being allowed. lol

Unless there are any objections, I think the standard Uber>OU>BL>UU is fine, however if we want to make NU playable, there should be a banlist for that too. So it would end up as Uber>OU>BL>UU>SU>NU, with SU being sometimes used. However, I dont want to worry about the lower tiers until we finish OU.

NU should be playable as there are a lot of people who like the Pokemon in the tier and also love using them. No point to just not have Pokemon because YOU don't like them. Same with having a "ban" tier for it...no point at all because there is nothing in NU that overpowers it.

Remember, generation 4 is almost over, so we may not get done with this on time. However, if we want to, we can start from the beginning in gen 5, hopefully competing from the start for the most used tier list.

If we start now we're gonna have to start over on Gen 5 so it's better to wait.

Now, before we get to the tiers themselves, I have a question for you all on movesets: I think the HG/SS mimic glitch allowing any pokemon to learn any move is obviously out of the question. However, some moves may not be. Currently, smogon allows ANY move a pokemon can learn; event, egg move, HM, TM, tutor, or level up, to be used. We dont have to make that so. Pokemon like tickle wobbufett and wish blissey are from small events from gen 3, and are nearly impossible to obtain in real life, much less one with good ivs and a good nature. While I definetely think event moves and 3rd gen tutor moves are all right, I dont believe that event moves from generation 3 should be allowed. I want your thoughts on that, though, since it would be interesting to have a metagame without wish blissey, among other event move pokemon.

I think we should do it like them, let Pokemon use any moves they learn(from previous Gens/events/etc). If not it doesn't make much of a difference really...just makes it kinda dumb imo.

deoxys-d
deoxys-s
garchomp
latias
latios
manaphy
mew
shaymin-s
salamence
wynaut
jirachi
heatran
celebi
scizor

Are you seriously wanting to test to see if Scizor is Uber and say Mew is OU?! loling

 

[evkl]

Just a quick note--while Coolking and anyone else are allowed to do this, it is unofficial. But have fun!

 

[Green Zubat]

Firstly, I'd like to say I think this projet is a great idea.

Secodl, I don't think Scizor should relly be in Ubers, but w/e.

Lastly, I don't see any reason why ALL a pokémon's learnable move shouldn't be taken into consideration, just because some of them are event moves. Otherwise you're just excluding certain members of the community simply for the reason "well I don't have a WishBliss (e.g.) so why should anyone else?"

 

[Caffeine Free]

Would it be a bad idea if the teirs were to be run off of BST? Just an idea, but i think it could work.

 

[Trainer-c]

This seems like reinventing the wheel. The system proposed even uses the tier names from Smogon. If Mew, Latias/Latios, Deoxys-S/Deoxys-D, and Shaymin Sky Forme are all out of Ubers, why not Wobbuffet, Deoxys and Darkrai? Then we would start with the basic rule that all Pokémon with base stats over 600 (Slaking would have to be tested, right?) are banned, and work out from there.

Also, Bulbagarden has a small battling community, and an even smaller number of battlers with deep enough interest/experience in the competitive metagame, or the time to devote to the multiple battles per day it would take to properly test Pokémon. I hear people complain because the council that tested and voted on Salamence was composed of 9 people, well the entirety of this proposed system would ultimately be decided by a group roughly the same size as that council that voted on a single Pokémon.

As for the event moves from Gen III, if you are going to ban those, then Event Pokémon may as well be banned period. How easy is it in real life to find a legit Celebi with the right nature and IVs for competitive play? Rarity of moves should not be a reason for banning them.

 

[coolking503]

NU should be playable as there are a lot of people who like the Pokemon in the tier and also love using them. No point to just not have Pokemon because YOU don't like them. Same with having a "ban" tier for it...no point at all because there is nothing in NU that overpowers it.

espeon. if nothing else that has to be banned from NU. Also, one can make an arguement for others. Anyways, lets get to that point first.

If we start now we're gonna have to start over on Gen 5 so it's better to wait.

THis is more of a base. Lets get this started so we dont have to start from a base of nothing in gen 5. The tiers will shift, but how we do the tests wont. I figured we should establish intrest, and now was the perfect time to do it during a period of displeasure after mence's ban.

Are you seriously wanting to test to see if Scizor is Uber and say Mew is OU?! loling

I'm saying if we find mew OU, great, scizor probably wont be banned. But if we find all these pokemon Uber (possible, but unlikely), scizor may go too. On hindsite, scizor would mean d-nite, infernape, and a list of others could be too, so I will take that off.

Would it be a bad idea if the teirs were to be run off of BST? Just an idea, but i think it could work.

I dont quite get what your saying.

Firstly, I'd like to say I think this projet is a great idea. Secodl, I don't think Scizor should relly be in Ubers, but w/e.

thanks,
as I said about scizor, that a list of potential suspects, but since there is really room for anything, I am going to take that off.

Otherwise you're just excluding certain members of the community simply for the reason "well I don't have a WishBliss (e.g.) so why should anyone else?"

Thats what I figured the consensus would be. The only problem is how hard it is to get. I suppose since it is possible, however improbable, to get one, we will let it be. Still waiting on other opinions though

Also, Bulbagarden has a small battling community, and an even smaller number of battlers with deep enough interest/experience in the competitive metagame, or the time to devote to the multiple battles per day it would take to properly test Pokémon. I hear people complain because the council that tested and voted on Salamence was composed of 9 people, well the entirety of this proposed system would ultimately be decided by a group roughly the same size as that council that voted on a single Pokémon.

I can think of about 30 people on bmgf who would be willing to participate, and this is one way to get some battling intrest. Let the players get to choose what to play with

This seems like reinventing the wheel. The system proposed even uses the tier names from Smogon. If Mew, Latias/Latios, Deoxys-S/Deoxys-D, and Shaymin Sky Forme are all out of Ubers, why not Wobbuffet, Deoxys and Darkrai? Then we would start with the basic rule that all Pokémon with base stats over 600 (Slaking would have to be tested, right?) are banned, and work out from there.

I think those are definitely Uber, regardless of how you play. Wobbu is almost overpowering in ubers as it is, and deo is, well, a bit strong, and out of the three the only one I eeven would consider.

All right, who wants to test Darkrai, Wobbufett, and deoxys?

 

[Green Zubat]

This seems like reinventing the wheel. The system proposed even uses the tier names from Smogon. If Mew, Latias/Latios, Deoxys-S/Deoxys-D, and Shaymin Sky Forme are all out of Ubers, why not Wobbuffet, Deoxys and Darkrai? Then we would start with the basic rule that all Pokémon with base stats over 600 (Slaking would have to be tested, right?) are banned, and work out from there.

I like this idea, use the 600 BST as a starting diviion between Uber & non and then test all those in quetion (I.e. Deoxs formes and Darkrai) to se if they are worthy of being in the Uber tier.

Also, Bulbagarden has a small battling community, and an even smaller number of battlers with deep enough interest/experience in the competitive metagame, or the time to devote to the multiple battles per day it would take to properly test Pokémon. I hear people complain because the council that tested and voted on Salamence was composed of 9 people, well the entirety of this proposed system would ultimately be decided by a group roughly the same size as that council that voted on a single Pokémon.

Thats not the point. The point is a very small close-knit group of people have the monopoly on competitive battling. At least with Bulbagarden Tiers Smogon won't be the be-all and end-all to competitive battling tiers an there'll be some variety.

As for the event moves from Gen III, if you are going to ban those, then Event Pokémon may as well be banned period. How easy is it in real life to find a legit Celebi with the right nature and IVs for competitive play? Rarity of moves should not be a reason for banning them.

I completely agree with this.

 

[Caffeine Free]

I ment that the teirs would go by BST (Base Stat Total). Meaning that pokemon in the same teir would also have close stats.

 

[coolking503]

I ment that the teirs would go by BST (Base Stat Total). Meaning that pokemon in the same teir would also have close stats.

so regigigas is OU along with lapras, but wobbufett and smeargle are NU?

 

[Caffeine Free]

It is imperfect yes, but after testing the pokemon used a lot would eventually make there way up the teirs while pokemon that dont see a lot of use would slowly make their way down. You could also start with just Ubers and Standard and at the end of like a one or two month period of time cut the big teir into fourths and work from there.

 

[coolking503]

Thats actually what we are doing, since we arent even testing UU yet.

The only pokeon I havent listed on the OU list with a 600 BST are wobbufett, deo-a, deo, and Darkrai. Darkrai looks way too overpowering to consider with its enormous SPA and SPe, and with decent bulk and nasty plot. Wobbufett also seems safely uber, since otherwise setting up is way too easy, and the metagame would pretty much become ubers with wobbu. the deos are beatable, and are frail, so I dont see why we shouldnt test those.

 

[Trainer-c]

Thats not the point. The point is a very small close-knit group of people have the monopoly on competitive battling. At least with Bulbagarden Tiers Smogon won't be the be-all and end-all to competitive battling tiers an there'll be some variety.

So the point is to create another small close-knit, and arguably less experienced, group so that people can choose between them? In that case, what would this system have to offer over the established, and deeply ingrained Smogon system? The way I see it, starting out with so many changes means the system will be chaotic, and if it balances out, it will either A) Mostly mirror the Smogon system, making it redundant. Or B) be centralized around a core group of Pokémon which would make the system boring to those that play it, seeing the exact same Pokémon over and over.

 

[Our Wasted Years]

Also I brought this up somewhere else on the forums but doing this will also make no sense for BMGf to affiliate with Smogon and the members here will have to still abide by the Standard OU rules of Smogon, but only here will they be able to play by the Standard OU of "BMGF". It's just a huge inconvenience imo. It's better if people just sucked it up and realized that two Pokemon being gone ISN'T the end of the world or something. There is a reason Smogon monopolized the metagame, and taking them head on isn't smart at all. Leave it to the good players.

 

[Exxthus]

Salamence and Latias's banning has drawn alot of criticism from people, and the point was made that smogon has monopolized the competitive pokemon tiers.

There's a reason they have a monopoly, you know. I don't like mence and Latias being banned either, but remember that this is just the 4th gen metagame, and 5th is just around the corner. They might get bumped down again.

So the point is to create another small close-knit, and arguably less experienced, group so that people can choose between them? In that case, what would this system have to offer over the established, and deeply ingrained Smogon system? The way I see it, starting out with so many changes means the system will be chaotic, and if it balances out, it will either A) Mostly mirror the Smogon system, making it redundant. Or B) be centralized around a core group of Pokémon which would make the system boring to those that play it, seeing the exact same Pokémon over and over.

^ Pretty much this.

 

[Angad]

This won't work, the metagame is basically perfected, and I thought you were pro-Salamence ban, people can still have tournaments (or ladders, check the Sig, this ladder is actually Bulbagarden official) with Salamence allowed in, we don't need to make a new tier system especially since the new games are coming out in a month.

 

[Troggy]

Secodl, I don't think Scizor should relly be in Ubers, but w/e.

Do you have a legitimate reason for banning Scizor from OU? I can't think of a reason. He has many counters, and even though he stops a few Pokemon from seeing much usage, Magnezone is always lurking right around the corner waiting for him to use Bullet Punch.

Would it be a bad idea if the teirs were to be run off of BST? Just an idea, but i think it could work.

That just wouldn't cut it, man. There is way more to the relationship between a Pokemon's stats and how good the Pokemon is than just the total. I would argue it's actually a somewhat complex combination of the distribution of the stats and the Pokemon's type, ability, and movepool.

To everyone, this is a cute idea, but I think you are underestimating how much work goes into creating a tiering system. Smogon has suspect tested a few things here and there, but the DPPt metagame has been going on for YEARS.

Although we could assign most things to a tier (I can guarantee it wouldn't be too far off from Smogon even if you try to blind yourself from it), there is simply not the base of players that would allow consistent and useful suspect testing.

The bottom line is: Smogon isn't always right, and they may or may not have their own agendas when Pokemon are moved from tier to tier, but their system is created and it works reasonably well. There are no competitors because the task is so large and detailed to be done without many months and many skilled/experienced players.

 

[Brent]

While I don't know if this could actually take off in popularity with Smogon still being so ingrained as the only option in most people's eyes and the end all be all of tier systems; I do like some points you have brought up.

"Pokemon like tickle wobbufett and wish blissey are from small events from gen 3, and are nearly impossible to obtain in real life, much less one with good ivs and a good nature. While I definetely think event moves and 3rd gen tutor moves are all right, I dont believe that event moves from generation 3 should be allowed. I want your thoughts on that, though, since it would be interesting to have a metagame without wish blissey, among other event move pokemon."

I absolutely couldn't agree more with this. I have mentioned this in conversation many times with others. Unfortunately I have always been met with a huge outcry of complaining when I do. I really DO think the game should be kept fresh and give new players that started recently an equal chance at competitive play. Saying "Oh, well you didn't play back in RSE and live near where that event was given? Too bad for you, you just will have to deal." is a ridiculous expectation if you are trying to encourage a balanced and fair metagame. On top of that it isn't realistic to see so many of these with the correct natures, abilities, and good IVs around that the usage of these in REAL play (NOT a sim) should actually be quite rare..

..if it weren't for one thing: hacking.

Yes. I said it. I got called a troll the last time I mentioned I didn't think highly of hacking for perfect IVs, adding moves from events, and skipping the entire normal process of obtaining Pokemon. I was told that the "spirit" of competitive battling was to do whatever it takes to win - including hacking. I was told I had the "wrong mindset as a competitive battler" because I BREED my Pokemon and "waste so much time". My apologies for actually playing the game without hacking my Pokemon? No.. I wont apologize for that and that wont change.

My point being; allowing obscure event movesets from quite a while back in previous generations (I have no issue with allowing more recent special event movesets) really just encourages hacking. While it may not be making stats 999 or adding other abilities to Pokemon it is still directly hacking the code of a Pokemon. The same goes for hacking on the correct Hidden Power at max value to things (as per moveset recommendations that Smogon lists, Hidden Power finds its way on to everything including events and unbreedable Pokemon). Sure, you can get the perfect Hidden Power at max value on your event Pokemon by chance but that chance is very low if you want it with the correct Nature, good IVs, etc as well. Though what you see instead is everything seemingly having Hidden Power and having the correct one at high power with great stats and correct natures. It's too convenient to just give any type of move to anything with the kind of control hacking provides. Sure, everyone could just start hacking their movesets, natures, IVs and hidden power, fake events, etc and it would JUST come down to picking the right team members and batting and it would be just like a sim such as Shoddy. I think it would be more fun not to though, and to have a metagame that didn't so greatly encourage it. Sure, the stats are based off Shoddy and Smogon is mainly Shoddy based in play but the issue is that it affects the real metagame. If there EVER is a new tier system it needs to reflect real gameplay and not the "in a perfect world where everyone gets what they want" kind of gameplay of Shoddy. Banning certain event moves, Hidden Power (even if just on events, stuff you can't save and reset on or breed), and others can help create a more realistic metagame that doesn't encourage modifying the code of your Pokemon.

Just to clarify, I mean no offense to anyone with this. What you do to your own game is your choice, and right now most would argue they have to if they want to have a competitive team (at least based on my experience yesterday hearing some people out) but I think it would be nice if YOU didn't think you HAD to anymore to be at the most competitive level. I can hope that either Smogon changes some things or someone else does one day to help balance that. I really love that we have Smogon and a widely used tier system but naturally it isn't perfect but we can to keep pushing for it to be better.

 

[Thundagere]

While I don't know if this could actually take off in popularity with Smogon still being so ingrained as the only option in most people's eyes and the end all be all of tier systems; I do like some points you have brought up.

"Pokemon like tickle wobbufett and wish blissey are from small events from gen 3, and are nearly impossible to obtain in real life, much less one with good ivs and a good nature. While I definetely think event moves and 3rd gen tutor moves are all right, I dont believe that event moves from generation 3 should be allowed. I want your thoughts on that, though, since it would be interesting to have a metagame without wish blissey, among other event move pokemon."

I absolutely couldn't agree more with this. I have mentioned this in conversation many times with others. Unfortunately I have always been met with a huge outcry of complaining when I do. I really DO think the game should be kept fresh and give new players that started recently an equal chance at competitive play. Saying "Oh, well you didn't play back in RSE and live near where that event was given? Too bad for you, you just will have to deal." is a ridiculous expectation if you are trying to encourage a balanced and fair metagame. On top of that it isn't realistic to see so many of these with the correct natures, abilities, and good IVs around that the usage of these in REAL play (NOT a sim) should actually be quite rare..

..if it weren't for one thing: hacking.

Yes. I said it. I got called a troll the last time I mentioned I didn't think highly of hacking for perfect IVs, adding moves from events, and skipping the entire normal process of obtaining Pokemon. I was told that the "spirit" of competitive battling was to do whatever it takes to win - including hacking. I was told I had the "wrong mindset as a competitive battler" because I BREED my Pokemon and "waste so much time". My apologies for actually playing the game without hacking my Pokemon? No.. I wont apologize for that and that wont change.

My point being; allowing obscure event movesets from quite a while back in previous generations (I have no issue with allowing more recent special event movesets) really just encourages hacking. While it may not be making stats 999 or adding other abilities to Pokemon it is still directly hacking the code of a Pokemon. The same goes for hacking on the correct Hidden Power at max value to things (as per moveset recommendations that Smogon lists, Hidden Power finds its way on to everything including events and unbreedable Pokemon). Sure, you can get the perfect Hidden Power on your event Pokemon by chance but that chance is very low if you want it with the correct Nature, good IVs, etc as well. Though what you see instead is everything seemingly having Hidden Power and having the correct one at high power with great stats and correct natures. It's too convenient to just give any type of move to anything with the kind of control hacking provides. Sure, everyone could just start hacking their movesets, natures, IVs and hidden power, fake events, etc and it would JUST come down to picking the right team members and batting and it would be just like a sim such as Shoddy. I think it would be more fun not to though, and to have a metagame that didn't so greatly encourage it. Sure, the stats are based off Shoddy and Smogon is mainly Shoddy based in play but the issue is that it affects the real metagame. If there EVER is a new tier system it needs to reflect real gameplay and not the "in a perfect world where everyone gets what they want" kind of gameplay of Shoddy. Banning certain event moves, Hidden Power (even if just on events, stuff you can't save and reset on or breed), and others can help create a more realistic metagame that doesn't encourage modifying the code of your Pokemon.

Just to clarify, I mean no offense to anyone with this. What you do to your own game is your choice, and right now most would argue they have to if they want to have a competitive team (at least based on my experience in yesterday hearing some people out) but I think it would be nice if YOU didn't think you HAD to anymore to be at the most competitive level. I can hope that either Smogon changes some things or someone else does one day to help balance that. I really love that we have Smogon and a widely used tier system but naturally it isn't perfect but we can to keep pushing for it to be better.

Impressive. I agree on this basis. Hacking is the player's choice, but I agree that we should make it so that event moves are basically banned.
Now, one thing I want to ask, there's been a huge (not to mention impressive) discussion about whether to do this or not. But can someone fill me in on how progress is right now?

 

[PokemonFan227]

I just worked pretty hard to get a Wish Hypno to use competitively. It's certainly possible to get one--due to cloning, there are hundreds out there.