Question for those who support Abortion

[The_Real_Mr_Sawyer]

Ok, Im taking a small poll among Abortion supporters.


Where is it that the baby in the womb becomes a human? Is it at birth? Some point during the pregnancy?

When would you consider it murder to abort a baby, at what point in the pregnancy that is?

Do you believe that Roe vs. Wade should be overtuned, and have the abortion decision left up to the states and the voters, and not simply judges?

If you said that Roe v. Wade should not be overturned, and not be left up to the voters to decide, can you point out where in the constitution you see the Abortion right mentioned?



Ok, just a little poll Im taking among Abortion supporters to see if I can get a sense of what many believe.

 

[bell02+]

mm... I kind of see it as one being until the cord is cut. Though, for my actual opinion on it is that abortions should have nothing to do with moral values. It kind of makes me think of the church in the state issue.

I think it should be the woman's choice, good or not. It also makes me view and wonder if anti-abortion supporters fell the remorse for the person that died this very second that they didn't even know exist? I feel abortions are the same, and while this also leads me to believe that when someone kills a pregnant woman they should be tried as murdering one person, religion has taught me that every person has an infinite value. Meaning that one person killing one person for one reason isn't more just than killing two for another, and that both can be viewed as infinitely wrong. (meaning infinity + infinity != 2*(infinity))

 

[Girafarig_Magcargo]

mm... I kind of see it as one being until the cord is cut. Though, for my actual opinion on it is that abortions should have nothing to do with moral values. It kind of makes me think of the church in the state issue.

I think it should be the woman's choice, good or not. It also makes me view and wonder if anti-abortion supporters fell the remorse for the person that died this very second that they didn't even know exist? I feel abortions are the same, and while this also leads me to believe that when someone kills a pregnant woman they should be tried as murdering one person, religion has taught me that every person has an infinite value. Meaning that one person killing one person for one reason isn't more just than killing two for another, and that both can be viewed as infinitely wrong. (meaning infinity + infinity != 2*(infinity))

Do you have any real reason for that completely arbitrary cut-off (no pun) point? I don't see any biological reason to choose the cutting of the umbilical cord as that magic point where a fetus becomes a baby.

 

[GrnMarvl14]

Does anyone really support abortion? Isn't it merely the support of the CHOICE to have an abortion?

Where is it that the baby in the womb becomes a human? Is it at birth? Some point during the pregnancy?

When does an egg become a chicken?

When would you consider it murder to abort a baby, at what point in the pregnancy that is?

I'm pro-choice, but the whole idea of abortion just...screws with my head.

Do you believe that Roe vs. Wade should be overtuned, and have the abortion decision left up to the states and the voters, and not simply judges?

If my state's vote towards gay marriage is any indication of how such a vote would go, I'm happy to leave it as it is.

If you said that Roe v. Wade should not be overturned, and not be left up to the voters to decide, can you point out where in the constitution you see the Abortion right mentioned?

I've never understood this whole line of thinking. Just because it's not mentioned in the Constitution doesn't necessarily mean it's left up to the states to decide. Ideally, yes, but ultimately their decisions can (and are meant to be) appealed to the courts. The judicial rulings ultimately take precedent because the judges are approved by Congress (either a state Congress, or in the case of the Supreme Court and a few other large courts, the national Congress). And the Congress is voted upon by the people, so ultimately the people are the ones picking the judges.

 

[Girafarig_Magcargo]

Does anyone really support abortion? Isn't it merely the support of the CHOICE to have an abortion?



When does an egg become a chicken?



I'm pro-choice, but the whole idea of abortion just...screws with my head.



If my state's vote towards gay marriage is any indication of how such a vote would go, I'm happy to leave it as it is.



I've never understood this whole line of thinking. Just because it's not mentioned in the Constitution doesn't necessarily mean it's left up to the states to decide. Ideally, yes, but ultimately their decisions can (and are meant to be) appealed to the courts. The judicial rulings ultimately take precedent because the judges are approved by Congress (either a state Congress, or in the case of the Supreme Court and a few other large courts, the national Congress). And the Congress is voted upon by the people, so ultimately the people are the ones picking the judges.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved for the States respectively, or to the people.

Funny how stuff works out like that...

 

[GrnMarvl14]

Funny how stuff works out like that...

Yes, and those decisions can be appealed to the courts, as I said.

 

[bell02+]

Do you have any real reason for that completely arbitrary cut-off (no pun) point? I don't see any biological reason to choose the cutting of the umbilical cord as that magic point where a fetus becomes a baby.

Not really, it's where I see it as 2 people.
I guess one can argue two brains, or separate consciousness, but the question was on your own opinion. I guess the point I was making on that is that it shouldn't matter that much and just wind down to weather the mother wants to be responsible or not.

There are plenty of other arguments that can be made on the morality of abortions. In a sense, is a life of suffering better than no life at all. (In that way you could link the death penalty and cruel and unusual punishment to abortion law.) Let's take every person's rational take on abortion, a 12 year old girl gets raped and is impregnated. Assuming she won't die from giving the birth of a child, lets say her family isn't economically stable to support this child. Is it more worth it for the child to live in a life of extreme poverty. (Better yet, you are the parent of the child-mother where birthing the baby can kill her, would you choose the baby or your child?)

The problem with a lot of these sorts of things is that the whole picture, and both sides are ignored. I'm not saying that you should get 10% off abortion coupons with a 12 piece bucket of chicken at KFC, but I think women should have the right, and intelligence, to choose and decide for themselves.

 

[Mozz]

Ok, Im taking a small poll among Abortion supporters.


Where is it that the baby in the womb becomes a human? Is it at birth? Some point during the pregnancy?

-- When it's born.

When would you consider it murder to abort a baby, at what point in the pregnancy that is?

-- Probably very late, no definitive time, so before it's actually born would be fine by me.

Do you believe that Roe vs. Wade should be overtuned, and have the abortion decision left up to the states and the voters, and not simply judges?

-- Roe vs. Wade is awful. The gov't should really have no say, but I'd rather the states than the feds.

If you said that Roe v. Wade should not be overturned, and not be left up to the voters to decide, can you point out where in the constitution you see the Abortion right mentioned?

--God you're dumb.

Ok, just a little poll Im taking among Abortion supporters to see if I can get a sense of what many believe.

 

[Girafarig_Magcargo]

Where is it that the baby in the womb becomes a human? Is it at birth? Some point during the pregnancy?

-- When it's born.

Like I said before, you have absolutely no scientific basis on this arbitrary point. If the fetus isn't alive when it's born, what is it? A dog? Cat? Fish? Also, what's so special about the fetus coming into contact with the outside world that somehow alters its very being and transforms it from non-human to human?

 

[The Big Al]

I don't get why people even make an issue out of this. Personally, I'm against abortion. I would never compell someone to have an abortion and I would try to convince them of not having an abortion.

However, I do not believe that their right to choose should be taken away. And that's all it is, a right. No one is forcing a person to have an abortion.

 

[inkysquid12]

I don't think abortion should be allowed unless either the baby is teribbly handicapped to the point that it could not possibly have a decent quality of life, or the mother is put at risk by the pregnancy or birthing. Alternatively, VERY early on (20 weeks or whatever it is is far too long). In other situations the child should be born, and put into care, not killed.

 

[Mozz]

Like I said before, you have absolutely no scientific basis on this arbitrary point. If the fetus isn't alive when it's born, what is it? A dog? Cat? Fish? Also, what's so special about the fetus coming into contact with the outside world that somehow alters its very being and transforms it from non-human to human?

If it can not survive outside the womb, it's not a person, but a parasite, no? Perhaps viability would be better, I'm not sure. Regardless, any point that doesn't please you (seems conception) would be "arbitrary". Don't care.

 

[Girafarig_Magcargo]

If it can not survive outside the womb, it's not a person, but a parasite, no? Perhaps viability would be better, I'm not sure. Regardless, any point that doesn't please you (seems conception) would be "arbitrary". Don't care.

Do you not understand what I'm asking? The embryo is always a human from the moment of conception. If it isn't human, what species is the embryo?

 

[Mozz]

Do you not understand what I'm asking? The embryo is always a human from the moment of conception. If it isn't human, what species is the embryo?

I didn't get the question, then. Yes, it's a "human".

 

[bell02+]

Do you not understand what I'm asking? The embryo is always a human from the moment of conception. If it isn't human, what species is the embryo?

Well, if its only asking about a human, then it is a boring question. The point to which you consider its own self is more entertaining. I mean, if I clipped my toe nails the clippings would still be (part of) a human, however asking if it is its own self then we get a topic!

 

[Kthleen]

The embryo is always a human from the moment of conception. If it isn't human, what species is the embryo?

The argument I've always heard is that:

1. though it's human by species,
2. it's not a "person" and
3. being human does not necessarily mean being a "person."

I wonder if some are confusing their ideas of "humanity" and "personhood," and I wonder if the question is actually "When do you consider it a person?"

 

[TTEchidna]

After conception until pretty much, what, a month in, it's nothing more than a bundle of cells.

Bell02's toenail comparison works well here. Or if you accidentally burned your arm on hot coffee. You killed cells with the heat, should you be charged for manslaughter?


That's the dilemma of pro-life vs pro-choice. Pro-lifers think that their opponents are anti-life, and therefore support abortions for everyone at all times, while pro-choicers think their opponents are anti-choice, and therefore support taking away every right in the world.

The question, though, is, who isn't pro-life? But who, again, shouldn't be pro-choice? It's the woman's body, shouldn't she be the one to choose what she does with something feeding off of her?

After all, would you force someone to remove a benign tumor? That's all a baby is.

I honestly don't see where anyone's right to force someone what to do with their body comes from. I don't see why it's anyone else's business, either. They aren't forcing you to get an abortion, why force them not to?

 

[Argy]

I've generally considered the most acceptable abortion scenario to be one where the fetus would suffer more by being born (poverty, abuse, AIDS, hunger, etc.) than by being aborted. That isn't to say people don't get abortions for other reasons, but that seems like a middle ground that most people could begin to tolerate. I do not, however, think abortion should be restricted that way legally.

We could think of a fetus as a shell for the baby; the baby (i.e. consciousness or soul if you prefer) isn't there yet, but its body is being built inside the womb. The nervous system doesn't totally develop until Weeks 19-27, so pain before that should be a non-issue. With no nervous system there are no senses, so the fetus is not conscious.

 

[Fig]

The fetus starts being alive once it reaches the point where it could survive outside the womb without ridiculous levels of medical obsession.

 

[The_Real_Mr_Sawyer]

Wow, its extremely intresting to here all the arguments from the other side on this one. The baby is just a tumor? And at what point does it become a baby than? Hmmmm, I think abortion anytime is wrong, cause heck, there is absolutely NO chance that being born into the world would cause the kid more pain, cause, heck we're freaking sucking his brains out, or burning him alive in the womb, or vacuming the kid out, really, I dont see how Abortion ever helps anyone. They claim that when the life of the mother is in danger, you should do an abortion. But what does actually killing the baby do? Its one thing to not try to save the baby, but to actually abort it, I fail to see how it helps anyone. The sad thing is, a 12 year old can be taken across state lines, have an abortion, and her parents never even have to know. Thats one of the things that kinda gets me angry. I see it as a human. Im more of the better safe than sorry types of people, and, if you cant be SURE that it isnt a human, by all means, dont kill it. Are we in there to feel what it is feeling? Heck, technically, if you dont believe in God, arnt we all just A bunch or cells? Id we dont have any immortal souls, what separates us from unborn children?


Ok next argument, what about Partial Birth Abortion? Many states actually allow this, so basically, what mother would actually do this to her child? TECHNICALLY, the baby can survive outside the womb, but they just dont deliver it all the way. If you ask me, abortion is the coward's way out. Its actually healthy to give birth, your probably doing more harm when doing an abortion. I've read studies that scare me. If you were raped, ok, you may be able to argue a case as to why you arnt selfish, but what other excuses could you have? Few abortions are because of rape.